Costumes and Single piece cosmetic skins - Facts, and improvements?

Hi All, I think it is safe to say that given the current topics active in the community as well as one of the topics which are considered one of the negatives of Ashes of Creation (not all without Merit, but in some cases there is extra information known which the greater community could learn - as well as some clarity we could get from Steven/Intrepid Studios) - is about the cosmetic pieces. I see there is quite an active thread right now regarding identifying armour types and it is starting to detail a bit, so I wanted to make this thread to elaborate on how the system is known to work (or how we think it does) - and how it could be balanced to be suitable.

Single Piece Cosmetic Skins:

These require first acquiring an actual in-game item that matches the base of the skin. My understanding is that the skins will at least somewhat resemble the design of the original, my hope is that it will resemble the original enough as such that there wouldn't be any ambiguity between what type of armour is being used.

Full body costumes:

These have no requirements and can just be equipped from level 1. This is what has caused the most discussion and where we can find a solution that doesn't cause any issue.

My belief of how it currently works is that you can have your normal gear equipped and the costume will act as a full body overlay/transmog. To me the term costume feels like something just for show though the choice of word isn't important here.

My form of "balancing" this would just be to make costumes non-combat armour. It could be worn but would actually occupy all the armour slots when in use and not provide any combat stats.

The issue I do see with my suggestion is that if alot of costumes will be in the shop and you can only safely use it in Towns but not out in the Wilds then it doesn't really incentivise getting them. And I think this is probably the dilemma of how to make the system work fairly seamlessly.

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What are your thoughts on balancing this, thoughts on my idea/s and clearing up any facts I might not know about that can be backed up with source?

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Okeydoke

The people that want to win the fight care because focusing the right targets is what wins the fight. Depending on how strong the aoe meta is, individual target focusing may not be as important for aoe focused groups. But even aoe focused groups fare better targeting the squishies first.

But 25% of the tanks are wearing tank costumes or their real armor, 25% are wearing ball attire like they're about to go dancing, 25% are dressed like 18th century English lords, 1 is dressed like an actual Mardi Gras Indian, and the other ~25% are wearing mage costumes.

25% of the squishes look like tanks, 25% look like squishes, 25% look like they're going dancing, 25% also just so happen to be English lords too.

This will be the meta for more pvp minded organizations. Confuse your enemies because they're going to do the same to you. Force your enemies to individually target every person to make threat assessments or however the armor indicator works.

Just a mess. End of the world? No. Everyone will be dealing with the same set of rules. But it's just a shame because it didn't have to be this way. Intrepid could have allowed people to look how they want without full body cosmetics.

Edit: I just want to reiterate that this isn't a huge deal. Games gonna be fine, not the end of the world to me. I just think the armor indicator needs to be really good. And I like Noaani's idea with the UI options. It needs to be clean and very easy to see.

Okeydoke

mcstackerson wrote: »

Icon could be centered and positioned right above someones head. Could even put it somewhere in the model and make it render in front.

If the situation is so chaotic, it's going to be hard to read armor anyway.

Any class can wear any armor so even without costumes, armor isn't a clear indicator of the class.

Crafters have control over stats that go on armor so even if you knew the type of armor, you wont know how it was altered.

Their armor tells you more about the threat than just their class. Healer in light armor, focus first. Healer in heavy armor, focus the dps in light armor first etc. Things like that.

I like your idea of putting the armor indicator on the character's body. That could be a lot better than floating above their head which would be more prone to getting lost in a mass of other armor indicators from other people.

Just to illustrate my point a little more. Imagine a group of 5 pvp squad roaming. 1 tank, 3 dps, 1 healer. And they're all wearing the same full body cosmetic. 100% going to happen if there's any tactical advantage to it, which there probably will be, even if only slightly and situationally. I just think that's dumb. I know, different weapons, different races potentially, but still 5 guys in identical cosmetics will at times have the desired confusing effect.

Noaani

Atama wrote: »

Okeydoke wrote: »

Like just imagine a 100vs100 battle. There's battle lines but the lines are crashing into each other at times, there's pushes being made and fallbacks. It's a long, extended mosh pit. Name plates are overlapping each other from characters being so close together, spell effects are going off that look like WW5 in outer space, someone's pet monkey is doing backflips(x30), a mage in the lightest of cloth armor appears like he's Conan the barbarian because of a full body cosmetic. His god damn armor indicator icon is overlapping other's armor indicators, morphing back and forth through the different people passing by him and standing next to him, you can't tell what the fk is what. Sure would be nice to just have people visually display what they're actually wearing.

In a 100x100 fight I couldn't care what any particular person is wearing, nor should I.

Depends on the 100v100.

In Archeage as an example, there were many times either Halcy or MM were 100v100 (v like... 3). In these situations, you never have all 100 on each side going up against each other at the same time.

This is especially true in objective based PvP (which is what the scale of PvP in Ashes will be). If you have all 100 of your side in one area in objective based PvP, you are either not going after the objective you should be going after, or are leaving the objective you need to guard unguarded.

In 100v100 PvP, it is more likely that there will be individual battles between 20 or so people from each side at a time. Even if Intrepid manage to get sieges up to 500 per side, there will still rarely be this many people all fighting each other at the same time.

Though I do agree, if there were 100 enemies on screen at a time, it doesn't matter what armor any of them is wearing. The need to know is kind of limited to maybe 20 enemies at a time.

ptitoine

Personally I wish full blown costume dont exist but they exist in the term this costume use (helm,glove,chest,belt,boots) You get them all but you can also transmog then individually. So player can actually mix look and not just look full blown paid costume

Geronimo

I don't have a problem with costumes at all. A bunch of people with costumes will just make the standard armor I am wearing less prevalent and more unique.

@Okeydoke I could see the problem with telling tanks vs healers apart in PVP but I thought there was a thing recently discussed where the cosmetic only applies to a similar item, meaning a heavy armor cosmetic can only apply to existing heavy armor and a cloth armor cosmetic can only apply to actual cloth armor, and not wearing cloth armor over my plate mail. Did I get that wrong, is that not a thing?

Edit: I found what it was, it was this thing about building cosmetics from Margaret, she says in there it could also apply to items, so it may or may not be a thing and seems to be open to finalization.

Noaani

Steven has confirmed in the past that at least for costumes (note; not cosmetics) there are no restrictions in regards to what you are wearing vs what it appears as if you are wearing.

This is the confusing thing - Ashes has two distinct cosmetic systems. There is the transmog type system, where you apply a look to a piece of armor, and then it shows that piece of armor in that slot on your character. There is speculation (though not confirmed) that this will be armor type restricted.

But then the game also has a full costume system - where you equip a costume in one slot and it overrides all other items in terms of what is displayed on your character.

There are no plans for any restrictions at all with this system.

Okeydoke

Yeah what Noaani said Geronimo. I'm talking about full body, single piece costumes that display over whatever gear you're wearing.

Goalid

I just don't think there's a solution to the problem. Meta is going to be people wearing costumes during pvp for the slight advantage it gives you. You should just be able to turn off cosmetics when you're outside of town. I wish that cosmetic buyers could at least get a poll or survey done on this so we could have a community opinion.

CROW3

Goalid wrote: »

I just don't think there's a solution to the problem. Meta is going to be people wearing costumes during pvp for the slight advantage it gives you.

I disagree. Mainly because there are so many assumptions that have to be made about combat, corruption, open world pvp, what information will or won’t be available about another player, on and on. Given the number of systems that still need to be built, not to mention integrated, balanced, and calibrated - it’s premature to even consider ‘costumes are meta’ a problem.

If we were in Beta 2 with the vast majority of the game in calibration & polish mode, I’d probably have a different perspective.

Geronimo

Well then, just to be safe, I'll go start scraping together my $375... :'(

JustVine

Goalid wrote: »

I just don't think there's a solution to the problem. Meta is going to be people wearing costumes during pvp for the slight advantage it gives you. You should just be able to turn off cosmetics when you're outside of town. I wish that cosmetic buyers could at least get a poll or survey done on this so we could have a community opinion.

The solution of 'make every currently existing costume have individual pieces that are required to transmog to same type tier one gear and then design all future sets with the gear silhouettes in mind so that they display the various gear tier markers or are only applicable to a certain type of gear ' is a perfectly valid solution. Most people just don't like the idea and it adds costs to cosmetic creation.

Or you could do a minimized version of the first solution and make it so that all costumes are designed with the tier one silhouette in mind and make you pay extra to transmog it up to a higher tier silhouette (since it functionally costs extra resources to make yet even more models.)

Or you could just make costumes take up your entire gear slot and you are functionally naked, but people won't like that solution either, yet it is equally valid.

There are plenty of ways to approach this properly. They just require IS to make a cost benefit analysis and some decisions. I personally prefer the first of these solutions, but I'm a fairly biased costume hungry gamer who can only afford to care about Intrepid's bottom line so much >_>; You won't here me personally complaining if they choose the latter or some combination of these either.

Turning off cosmetics should be a last resort as it completely undermines an entire half of the psychology behind buying costumes.

RazThemun

Just have it like in wow. You transmog a set and that is what people visually see. The items being worn can also be inspected by players... so that they can see what is the skin in appearance... and what is the actual armour type being worn. I do think it would be smart for players to not use skins until like level 15 or 20...so that all players have that simple design for the initial push. While I do own skins, I will not apply them level 1 as I see that as foolish and immersion breaking. Lvl 1 toon looking like a level 20 toon in a starting area day 1

Noaani

Goalid wrote: »

I just don't think there's a solution to the problem. .

Sure there is.

The problem is that it takes longer to assess potential attackers.

The solution is to make it easier and faster to glean that information.

basvision

To me costumes should work the same way they work in ESO.
You can equip them via interface from level 1 on. They have no stats and no effect on your gameplay. They are just there for style.
Please also add this option for weapons

And I think it would be a bad thing if you can take a look at a character and see her stats because you know the gear.
I have a very hard time to explain what I mean by that.
Take Strider / Aragorn. If I feel like looking like stealthy Strider, let me, but if I want to look like King Aragorn the one hour later, let me do that too please. He is stil lthe same person (class) but I have a wide range of personally express my style how I feel at that time.
I understand when people like Asmongold want to play a big brute with a 3 meter sword. At the same time, i miss the option for me, someone who wants more realistic weapons. both is possible, both should be an option

Noaani

basvision wrote: »

To me costumes should work the same way they work in ESO.
You can equip them via interface from level 1 on. They have no stats and no effect on your gameplay. They are just there for style.
Please also add this option for weapons

And I think it would be a bad thing if you can take a look at a character and see her stats because you know the gear.
I have a very hard time to explain what I mean by that.
Take Strider / Aragorn. If I feel like looking like stealthy Strider, let me, but if I want to look like King Aragorn the one hour later, let me do that too please. He is stil lthe same person (class) but I have a wide range of personally express my style how I feel at that time.
I understand when people like Asmongold want to play a big brute with a 3 meter sword. At the same time, i miss the option for me, someone who wants more realistic weapons. both is possible, both should be an option

Both are options in Ashes.

Which is the problem. When people attack you, you need to be able to make threats assessments faily quickly. A major aspect of that is identifying basic equipment types. Not the specific items, just the type.

If someone comes running at you with a giant sword and plate armor, you expect to need to defend against that sword and attack against that armor. However, with costumes, they may actually be a healer in cloth armor holding a staff or some such. They may even be a ranger with a bow and arrow, yet they still appear as if they have that giant sword and plate armor.

This isn't an issue in ESO or WoW, because in those games, your enemies are the opposing faction.

In Ashes, with no factions, it's like a Schrödinger's type situation. You see a player, but you don't know if thet player is friend or foe until that status is put to the test

Elwendryll

I don't think knowing the weight of armor your target is using just by looking at them is necessary, and I believe the gain from being able to look however you want outweighs the strategic loss from not seeing the armor type immediately.

Side note, I heavily prefer single piece cosmetic pieces over full body costume. I really like to mix and match all the styles and dyes I have available to come up with something really unique that I like. Of course, you can't guarantee everything will work together and that there won't be some clipping issues with certain combinations or body types, but taking that in consideration is part of the work when you customize your character.

Okeydoke

Crow3 is right in that there's a lot we don't know right now that will affect how big of an issue it is. Weapons and race may or may not be big indicators of class, so that'll help with threat assessment if most healers are of X race and carry staves, not great axes. But if there's valid reasons for both healers and warriors to carry great axes, it becomes that much more confusing. Same with race. Neither your race nor your weapons will be concealed by costumes, hopefully at least. I think that's the case.

Nevertheless you still cant see their armor if they're wearing a costume. You have to look at the armor indicator icon. That is a textbook example of immersion breaking. There aren't many more clear cut examples of the breaking of immersion. Instead of looking at what a person is wearing, you have to look at an artificial icon indicator. I personally don't care too much about the immersion breaking, more the competitive angle of it.

But costumes almost certainly will be meta for certain classes/builds. The leader of a hardcore pvp group is going to tell his full light armor/god heals healer to put on a damn costume. Stop broadcasting that you're wearing paper and capable of delivering the strongest heals we have. If it takes an extra second for enemies to identify that you're the god healer, WORTH.

Geronimo

The tank should definitely hide under this:

For some reason I would have a 100% tendency to go after this guy first.

Okeydoke

basvision wrote: »

To me costumes should work the same way they work in ESO.
You can equip them via interface from level 1 on. They have no stats and no effect on your gameplay. They are just there for style.

I was a high profile player at launch in ESO and for some time after. I was emperor on Bloodthorn campaign for months. I used those costumes all the time, sometimes switching to a new one every 15-20 minutes. I had a big target on my back, constantly focused in big pvp fights.

So the costumes allowed me to weave in and out of the crowd without people being able to recognize me easily, until enough people realized the new look and then I'd switch again. And I was a squishy, light armor, so it helped in concealing that fact too.

It was a great time. And I'll probably end up doing similar things in Ashes. But being honest, it's such a bad design for pvp competitive integrity, immersion, natural threat assessment.

Okeydoke

Geronimo wrote: »

The tank should definitely hide under this:

For some reason I would have a 100% tendency to go after this guy first.

That's kinda what I'm talking about. There will be tanks wearing stuff like that. End of the world? No. Clown show? Yes.

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