healer balance thoughts-pvp

So AoC isn't balancing for 1v1s, They are focusing more on large scale battles. So I'm curious on peoples thoughts for how with that in mind, that's going to translate over to smaller scale fights. Obviously skill selection, augmentation, skill point allocation, gear, and skill are all going to play a factor. We don't have all the info and I'm just speculating. A lot of games have trouble balancing healers for all content. Do you think the average pure healer(cleric/cleric) will/will not/should/should not be nearly unkillable in a 1v1? Please try to stay unbiased.
In a 1v1 if they are unkillable while they have mana and have enough ways to gain mana back that could cause them to be over powered. On the other hand if they are just unkillable for 45 seconds until they run out of mana they could potentially be under powered and lose every 1v1. Or maby they will be struggling to stay alive for 45 seconds until they are killed or they run out of mana and die. Which way do you think would be the better direction if any of those? You don't want healers to be to strong in small scale fights but at the same time I wouldn't want them to feel weak in larger scale fights. They need to be able to heal pve content and have enough mana to get through boss fights. If you were a healer focused on staying alive and you couldn't even do that in a 1v1 situation, would that feel unfair/fair for you? If you were a damage dealer and couldn't 1v1 a healer would that feel unfair/fair for you?
If the "average healer" is to strong, what about a cleric/tank wearing full plate + shield focused on survivability. With 8 classes, 64 possible combinations, and any class wearing any armor/weapon type, small scale fights could go in any direction. Any other builds you think could transition poorly into small scale fights?

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tautau

I don't like that idea at all, @mcstackerson . What it essentially does is make healers a lot less necessary. Healing is one of the archetypes and we need them to be needed in the game.

Taiphee

ptitoine wrote: »

Well in my opinon if you ru out of mana after 45sec the design is kinda bad. cause How do you expect to heal in raid or dungeon if fight last longer than 45sec.

But I think it always depends of who fight the (cleric/cleric) If you put a pure (dps/dps) it would be much easier than (dps/support - dps/tank - etc ...)

Also healer so be able to deffend themselve in 1v1 situation otherwise it mean their dmg is too low to even quest in solo properly. Not saying they should kill the dps/dps in 2 second but to have a good mix of both healing so they have few opening to dps also not just spam heal to hope someone will save them

Healers can always get mana back if they have a mage in their party or raid.... When it comes to group dynamics running out of mana shouldn't be a problem if you have good teammates

Taiphee

Goalid wrote: »

Just nerf self-healing to the point where it's balanced for whatever you're trying to balance 1v1. Then if there are multiple healers, the strat is to burst one and cc the others.

Sorry bro.... Balancing is group focused 😂😂

mcstackerson

tautau wrote: »

I don't like that idea at all, @mcstackerson . What it essentially does is make healers a lot less necessary. Healing is one of the archetypes and we need them to be needed in the game.

No it doesn't. People still take damage, including the tank, and need to be healed up. Not everyone is going to avoid every mechanic, even a good person messes up from time to time. All I've seen it do is allow good groups, ones who know how to avoid damage, to take healers who can contribute other things to the group.

Dygz

Ashes is already designed with the idea that Clerics should not have to "constantly recover large amounts of health"... especially not as the Tank gets chunked.
Also, it's Cleric that is the Primary Archetype; not healer.

So...mcstackerson is on point and not saying anything controversial about Ashes game design.

ptitoine

Taiphee wrote: »

ptitoine wrote: »

Well in my opinon if you ru out of mana after 45sec the design is kinda bad. cause How do you expect to heal in raid or dungeon if fight last longer than 45sec.

But I think it always depends of who fight the (cleric/cleric) If you put a pure (dps/dps) it would be much easier than (dps/support - dps/tank - etc ...)

Also healer so be able to deffend themselve in 1v1 situation otherwise it mean their dmg is too low to even quest in solo properly. Not saying they should kill the dps/dps in 2 second but to have a good mix of both healing so they have few opening to dps also not just spam heal to hope someone will save them

Healers can always get mana back if they have a mage in their party or raid.... When it comes to group dynamics running out of mana shouldn't be a problem if you have good teammates

Yeah but if you plan raid and dungeon according to mage giving maa back its bad design. Yeah its cool they can help. But healer mana regen shouldnt be based on other class. And if you run out after 45sec it mean its badly designed for longer fight such as Raid /Dungeon boss or world boss

Taiphee

ptitoine wrote: »

Taiphee wrote: »

ptitoine wrote: »

Well in my opinon if you ru out of mana after 45sec the design is kinda bad. cause How do you expect to heal in raid or dungeon if fight last longer than 45sec.

But I think it always depends of who fight the (cleric/cleric) If you put a pure (dps/dps) it would be much easier than (dps/support - dps/tank - etc ...)

Also healer so be able to deffend themselve in 1v1 situation otherwise it mean their dmg is too low to even quest in solo properly. Not saying they should kill the dps/dps in 2 second but to have a good mix of both healing so they have few opening to dps also not just spam heal to hope someone will save them

Healers can always get mana back if they have a mage in their party or raid.... When it comes to group dynamics running out of mana shouldn't be a problem if you have good teammates

Yeah but if you plan raid and dungeon according to mage giving maa back its bad design. Yeah its cool they can help. But healer mana regen shouldnt be based on other class. And if you run out after 45sec it mean its badly designed for longer fight such as Raid /Dungeon boss or world boss

To me its not really broken since the whole purpose of fighting together is to rely on each other, so it does make group dynamics more of a team than players soloing together and I'm sure there's mana regen so one would just have to wait a bit and rely on his teammates to help, that's the joy of working in a group.

Taiphee

That's where strategy and skills come into play.... Is the healer able to stand his/her ground long enough till he/she has enough mana to do something, how does the healer manage his/her mana and is his/her team-mate being helpful do they have his/her back... That's really thrilling just thinking about it. And it's been made clear that there's a lot of focus on group dynamics. There's so much depth to this, that's what makes this game really exciting 😇

Kesyntanth

Well, in terms of 1v1, that doesn't seem to happen all that often in my experience. That's usually when you just run into someone randomly and they're hostile/enemy faction whatever. Then it's just a random sloppy engagement. There's dueling, but, meh... not worth talking about.

Those that gank generally come in three flavors: 1. stealth solo gank build, 2. stealth gank squads, 3. Roll teams .

First one is self explanatory, it's a front loaded single target burst damage type. It's almost always a stealth class. Sometimes it's a broken flavor of the month/week. Survival is based around whatever skills you have available. In this case, the healer tries to outlast, area denial, disrupt and outpace them with self sustain or dots or whatever weird thing your second archetype gave you. That being said, the ganker is usually built to be only good at this one thing: killing a solo target quickly. The character itself usually is super narrow in scope otherwise. So... best of luck.

In the second case, you get jumped by multiple said gankers. Well... nice knowing you.

The third case is a roll squad, usually of higher skilled pvpers patrolling a territory or a dedicated rpk guild. Again... nice knowing you.

The problem right now is that we have no idea what the second archetypes will add to our builds. The other consideration is that any class is supposed to be able to wear any armor. There's no hard evidence on the trade off for that yet, but, we've all played similar games where such restrictions were lifted. Will these two factors allow us to make very solid solo characters? I would say yes. Will they be as good in group builds? I would think in some cases yes, some cases no. We just don't know enough yet.

We know with all this stuff that there's going to be a meta for whatever you want to build and that's pretty fun. I mean, it is great when a ganker thinks you're an easy target and you melt them into a pile of guts and viscera.

They're usually carrying good stuff too... the spoils of their previous marks.

However it all turns out, I think it will be interesting.

Taiphee

Kesyntanth wrote: »

Well, in terms of 1v1, that doesn't seem to happen all that often in my experience. That's usually when you just run into someone randomly and they're hostile/enemy faction whatever. Then it's just a random sloppy engagement. There's dueling, but, meh... not worth talking about.

Those that gank generally come in three flavors: 1. stealth solo gank build, 2. stealth gank squads, 3. Roll teams .

First one is self explanatory, it's a front loaded single target burst damage type. It's almost always a stealth class. Sometimes it's a broken flavor of the month/week. Survival is based around whatever skills you have available. In this case, the healer tries to outlast, area denial, disrupt and outpace them with self sustain or dots or whatever weird thing your second archetype gave you. That being said, the ganker is usually built to be only good at this one thing: killing a solo target quickly. The character itself usually is super narrow in scope otherwise. So... best of luck.

In the second case, you get jumped by multiple said gankers. Well... nice knowing you.

The third case is a roll squad, usually of higher skilled pvpers patrolling a territory or a dedicated rpk guild. Again... nice knowing you.

The problem right now is that we have no idea what the second archetypes will add to our builds. The other consideration is that any class is supposed to be able to wear any armor. There's no hard evidence on the trade off for that yet, but, we've all played similar games where such restrictions were lifted. Will these two factors allow us to make very solid solo characters? I would say yes. Will they be as good in group builds? I would think in some cases yes, some cases no. We just don't know enough yet.

We know with all this stuff that there's going to be a meta for whatever you want to build and that's pretty fun. I mean, it is great when a ganker thinks you're an easy target and you melt them into a pile of guts and viscera.

They're usually carrying good stuff too... the spoils of their previous marks.

However it all turns out, I think it will be interesting.

The second and third though 😂😂

Goalid

Taiphee wrote: »

Sorry bro.... Balancing is group focused 😂😂

There still needs to be some balance for self-heals. Nobody wants healers to be able to 1v5, except maybe healers...

Goalid

tautau wrote: »

I don't like that idea at all, @mcstackerson . What it essentially does is make healers a lot less necessary. Healing is one of the archetypes and we need them to be needed in the game.

Eh? In New World you still needed a healer even though it had active blocking. You just balance the stamina bar so a tank can't block all incoming damage, and then healer's are still relevant.

Hasil

Jahlon wrote: »

So, food for thought here.

Everyone is always concerned with "Who beats who" at max level.

The truth is, at max level, factoring in equal gear AND equal skill (i.e. super computers who make mistakes less than 3 times in a million opportunities) nobody should win a 1vs1, it should be a stalemate.

The tank and the healer look at each other and say "are we really doing this"?
The tank and the damage dealer both know, the DD can't outpace mitigation, and tank shouldn't have enough CC to contain the DD when he tries to juke and away.

And the Damage Dealer again should not be able to burn down a healer, but the healer should not be able to pursue the damage dealer when he tries to escape and disengage.

I generally agree what you said. So many games try to balance 1v1s and end up entirely messing up the meta-game.

An exception to the stalemate scenarios might be stealthers. When attacking from stealth, a stealth class should be able to kill squishy targets if they hit their combos/attacks. If they miss them, they die. If they attack a tank from stealth, they probably die.

Gizban

Dygz wrote: »

Ashes is already designed with the idea that Clerics should not have to "constantly recover large amounts of health"... especially not as the Tank gets chunked.
Also, it's Cleric that is the Primary Archetype; not healer.

So...mcstackerson is on point and not saying anything controversial about Ashes game design.

And the Cleric is one of two possible healers, right?

Tanks are currently labeled 'tank' because regardless of their Archetype they still get called 'tanks'. In like form, whichever archetype is the defacto healer (probably the Cleric) they will be LFGd as 'Healer'.
Is a group going to LFG CLERIC for his debuffs? Not likely, but we'll see.

Kesyntanth

The concern I have with balancing is more general than specific. If you try to balancing everything to the lowest common denominator, it often becomes incredibly boring.

I've played plenty of games that were "group balanced". For one, that was never true, since there were always character builds that were vastly meta (and clumsily overnerfed afterward). And two, the expression of that ideal came down to a ton of sparkle fests with few meaningful ways to play your character at the next level.

One is pretty self explanatory. It's the default run of the theme park used to keep player retention up. Because, let's be honest, the average player doesn't know boss fights, pvp strats, and often even how their characters work. They'll drop into a dungeon, instanced battleground or event and just try to wing it and/or hope to get carried.

Ironically, they're the first ones to complain when they get destroyed by a decent player. Let's be honest though, that's how they live their lives. It's not like their in game or IRL persona is going to be changed by a good smackdown or two.

Nah, they'll just have a midlife crisis at 40 like everyone else. Becoming either creepy old guy in a cheap Porsche or the Karen yelling at the McDonalds cashier while her special child is running in circles screaming.

Don't do drugs kids. Anyway...

The second one demands a little explanation. There have been a few games that rewarded next level play in the past, unfortunately they almost always had too many sins to survive the MMO market. Warhammer: Age of Reckoning was a good example of that. For nearly all of the classes, if you were skilled, you could pull off some legendary plays. Group, solo, skirmish, siege, whatever. There were metas, but, even the non meta builds could do some really interesting things. You never really knew what you were dealing with until the fighting started.

It was fun gameplay. It was unique and exciting. You didn't know everything about your opponent at a glance. It kept it fresh. Even after memorizing the tells (gear, auras, sparklies), you still would have to see the first few attacks before you were sure.

There are other example, better and worse, but, that was the first one that came to mind. It doesn't help that a lot of the examples are also either too old or too niche to be relevant now.

Point being, I would rather have the combat varied and interesting. I would like the various character builds to have unique features that keep it fun. A cleric/fighter should feel different than a cleric/mage versus a cleric/ranger. There's always going to be a meta, a best in slot, but, that doesn't mean all the other options have to suck or be made flat and boring by heavy-handed mechanics.

Kind of turned into a rant, but, I used to love playing healers. It's been a long time since any of them were fun, though. In a lot of games, the "fun" healers if they existed at all were all hybrids. Full healers were just heal bitches. Stand in the back line, make the uwuwu sound and make the green bars go up. Occasionally you have to cleanse and clear dots, but, other than that it's: You will wear the dress, say the uwu and like it!

No wonder they're all instant queue on every mmo on the planet.

It's because healers are fucking boring and they don't have to be.

So yeah... /rant

Dygz

pyreal wrote: »

Tanks are currently labeled 'tank' because regardless of their Archetype they still get called 'tanks'. In like form, whichever archetype is the defacto healer (probably the Cleric) they will be LFGd as 'Healer'.
Is a group going to LFG CLERIC for his debuffs? Not likely, but we'll see.

Since Ashes is balanced for an 8-person group with one of each Primary Archetype, it's more likely that people will LFG for Cleric.
Just as they will LFG for Mage and Rogue. Rather than LFG for DPS.

Not that what people LFG for matters within the context of this discussion. LFG s irrelevant.

Taiphee

Goalid wrote: »

Taiphee wrote: »

Sorry bro.... Balancing is group focused 😂😂

There still needs to be some balance for self-heals. Nobody wants healers to be able to 1v5, except maybe healers...

That's not going to be possible if group dynamics is well balanced

Gizban

Dygz wrote: »

pyreal wrote: »

Tanks are currently labeled 'tank' because regardless of their Archetype they still get called 'tanks'. In like form, whichever archetype is the defacto healer (probably the Cleric) they will be LFGd as 'Healer'.
Is a group going to LFG CLERIC for his debuffs? Not likely, but we'll see.

Since Ashes is balanced for an 8-person group with one of each Primary Archetype, it's more likely that people will LFG for Cleric.
Just as they will LFG for Mage and Rogue. Rather than LFG for DPS.

Not that what people LFG for matters within the context of this discussion. LFG s irrelevant.

Tree: Healers will be called healers, regardless of their archetype.

Forest: We're not talking about LFG, just correcting people on archetype/class/role labeling, courtesy of Dygz.

/e rolls his eyes

Dygz

Can a tree roll its eyes if there's no one there to see it?

SirChancelot

I don't think you need the nerve self-healing to maintain any kind of balance.
If they're going for a rock paper scissors approach certain classes could have abilities that negate or reduce self-healing capability.
For example a rogue could have a poison that reduces incoming healing by 50% for the next 10 seconds. That could tip fight favor of the rogue.

But self heal builds in every game are always the hardest to balance, they're usually OP or nerfed to hell...

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