Protecting Our Casuals: Gear

One big concern I have for AoC is that gear will end up providing too much power. AoC is already a game that will greatly reward those who play a lot which is why I believe that it is imperative for gear to only account for at most 20-30% of a character's power.

People will enjoy grinding out their gear even if each piece gives small increments of power increase. These small increments of power increase will allow the bulk of the population to not feel like they are so out geared that they cannot even come close to competing. This is very important because when those casual players will die over and over to a hardcore player that severely outgears them without any chance of fighting back, they will be very likely to just quit. Hardcore players will have other advantages (gold, skill, etc.) anyway because they play a lot more and there is no reason to further widen the gap between casual and hardcore players.

Please understand that I am not against rewarding those who invest more time into the game. I am just suggesting that their reward should not create such a great disparity between them and casual players. I truly believe that this can greatly help the health of the game and its population.

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Talents

mcstackerson wrote: »

But you aren't just getting crit with each piece, you are getting little bits of other stats as well.

Would it feel better if stats were delegated to different pieces so you see a more significant increase in the stat(s) that is associated with?

You would get your base weapon damage from your weapon. Maybe you only get defensive stats from armor with more of the stats coming from significant pieces like the chest, helm, and legs. When you get a chest piece, you know you are getting a decent bump.

I know you aren't, that's why in my original example I also said strength, it's just that the person I replied to only specified the crit chance.

QuiQSilv3r

I like your point, gear should give small meaningful bonuses but not extreme ones. However someone in standard armor should not be able to fight someone in all epic armor with enchantments. However its also important that someone in uncommon armor can fight someone in a tier above armor and have a solid chance. The armor should be effective and meaningful but definitely not the end all be all beccause your right the average player should still be useful in an 8v8 where the enemy has higher tier armor, otherwise the lower leveled players will not get to enjoy the game until they reach max.

Dygz

I mean...
Ashes is balanced for 8-person groups. Seems easy enough for casual-time players to be in a group with hardcore-time players. Also, seems easy enough for them to have helpful friends who are hardcore-time players... even if they aren't all in a formal group.

In Ashes, power will likely be determined by Level, points in Passive Skills, points in Active Skills, points in Weapon Skills, Armor, Weapon(s), Augments and Enchantments.

Casual-time players can still make friends with other citizens who can help them acquire the gear they need.
I don't think we should be worried about gear overpowering the other factors that provide characters with power - until we play/test and determine that the devs need to re-balance their design.

VmanGman

Dygz wrote: »

I mean...
Ashes is balanced for 8-person groups. Seems easy enough for casual-time players to be in a group with hardcore-time players. Also, seems easy enough for them to have helpful friends who are hardcore-time players... even if they aren't all in a formal group.

In Ashes, power will likely be determined by Level, points in Passive Skills, points in Active Skills, points in Weapon Skills, Armor, Weapon(s), Augments and Enchantments.

Casual-time players can still make friends with other citizens who can help them acquire the gear they need.
I don't think we should be worried about gear overpowering the other factors that provide characters with power - until we play/test and determine that the devs need to re-balance their design.

I assume that you've played MMOs before. You are aware that most hardcore players will play with other hardcore players... that's just the nature of the genre and the community. Casuals will not be easily welcomed into hardcore 8 man groups. So your suggestion does not work.

My main point is that by now we have learned that MMORPGs do not survive without casuals. Or even if they survive they will not have much content added because they don't have the funds because they don't have enough players to provide those funds. And I assure you that in a game like AoC, casuals will quit if they keep losing over and over to people who no life the game.

20-30% power increase is still very significant and it allows casuals to compete. Don't let your desire (not referring to you specifically Dygz) to have your amount of free time determine your success more than your skill at the expense of the casual player base and by extension the game's health. Once again, I am not advocating for people with more time to not be rewarded for their progress... I'm merely stating that they should not be rewarded so much that the casuals do not stand a chance.

Dygz

Most hardcore-challenge players will play with hardcore-challenge players. True.

I'm a hardcore-time player. The hardcore-time players I typically group with are fine with allowing casual-time players to drop in. But, it's not just about hardcore-time groups allowing in casual-time players.
It's also about hardcore-time players choosing to spend some of their time in casual-time groups.

In previous MMORPGs, what makes it difficult for casual-time players to continue playing with hardcore-time players is that hardcore-time players quickly out level the casual-time players and move away to higher level regions.

In Ashes, we will be returning to to our home Nodes and we will know where people live. Housing is physical, rather than instanced, especially for hardcore-time people... which means casual-time players will know where to find the hardcore-time players who play when they're online.
Also, the Node Community will be stronger because citizens of the Node will be helping each other progress the Node in a variety of ways.

The point I don't understand is why you assume that casual-time players will "keep losing over and over to people who no-life the game".
If you're talking about getting ganked by people with better gear, then, caww is correct: You just refuse to fight back. If Corruption works as it's supposed to, the Corruption hit should be enough of a deterrent that you take that one death (no different than being killed by a mob) and keep going about your business.
If people quit because they keep dying over and over again, it will be because Corruption is not working as promised.

We should expect that the gap in gearscore will reflect the gap in level, such that higher gearscore gap results in higher Corruption score. Which, now that I think of it, that's really what the request should be - ensure that gearscore gap is a factor of Corruption score.

I think everyone already agrees that hardcore-time players should not be rewarded so much that casuals do not stand a chance. The devs agree with that as well.
I still don't understand why you are expecting gear to be the primary factor there - or why gearscore would be so heavily tied to play time such that casual-time players need to be worried about that.

Goalid

VmanGman wrote: »

Please understand that I am not against rewarding those who invest more time into the game. I am just suggesting that their reward should not create such a great disparity between them and casual players. I truly believe that this can greatly help the health of the game and its population.

What will help the health of the game is if its systems are enjoyable. Is that grind for better gear fun? Not whether the guy who plays 4 hours a week stands a chance in open world pvp against a player who plays 40 hours a week. Gear differences matter for the health of the economy, progression of raid difficulty, etc. You shouldn't be able to bring 100 green geared people to a castle siege and stand a chance.

VmanGman

Dygz wrote: »

In previous MMORPGs, what makes it difficult for casual-time players to continue playing with hardcore-time players is that hardcore-time players quickly out level the casual-time players and move away to higher level regions.

In Ashes, we will be returning to to our home Nodes and we will know where people live. Housing is physical, rather than instanced, especially for hardcore-time people... which means casual-time players will know where to find the hardcore-time players who play when they're online.
Also, the Node Community will be stronger because citizens of the Node will be helping each other progress the Node in a variety of ways.

I disagree that this is how things will play out. Most hardcore players will only invite other hardcore players to go do the content that rewards the best gear. It's how MMOs work

Dygz wrote: »

The point I don't understand is why you assume that casual-time players will "keep losing over and over to people who no-life the game".
If you're talking about getting ganked by people with better gear, then, caww is correct: You just refuse to fight back. If Corruption works as it's supposed to, the Corruption hit should be enough of a deterrent that you take that one death (no different than being killed by a mob) and keep going about your business.
If people quit because they keep dying over and over again, it will be because Corruption is not working as promised.

So your game design philosophy is to force casual players to not participate in PvP? You're saying that because casual players know that they WILL lose, they need to just sit there and take a beating. That sounds like awful game design.

Dygz wrote: »

I still don't understand why you are expecting gear to be the primary factor there - or why gearscore would be so heavily tied to play time such that casual-time players need to be worried about that.

It's very clear that AoC is a game where time investment will result in better gear. Everything from the open world dungeons to most items being purchasable with gold and not soulbound leads to more time investment resulting in better gear.

Edit: word

Happymeal2415

I mean we could quote Steven again and say this game is not for everyone. This game isn't being made to spoon feed people good characters. Time investment matters.

VmanGman

Happymeal2415 wrote: »

I mean we could quote Steven again and say this game is not for everyone. This game isn't being made to spoon feed people good characters. Time investment matters.

When did I say that the game needs to be made to spoon feed people? When did I say that the game needs to be for everyone?

You understand that the game will not survive or have very few funds for more content without casuals, right?

Dygz

Again, hardcore-challenge players tend only play with hardcore-challenge players. True.
It's not particularly true for hardcore-time players.

Ashes is a game where time investment can result in better gear. Sure.
That didn't really clear up your point.

JamesSunderland

Considering Steven played Archeage [Gear is Around 85-95% of a character's power(Yep truly insane)] and
Lineage 2(Gear was Around 50-70% of a character's power) in both games gear advantage was very meaningful.

According to the wiki: "Gear has approximately a 40-50% influence on a player's overall power in the game."
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Weapons#cite_note-interview-19-July-2020-53:59-16
So i would certainly expect gear to be really meaningful in Ashes but nothing insane like Archeage, so i also expect skill to play as big of a role aswell.

Hardcore players will always have the upper-hand in terms of gear (considering same farm efficiency but more playtime) over casuals, but gear isn't the ultimate form of power, skill and numbers can be casuals greatest strengths.

VmanGman

Dygz wrote: »

Ashes is a game where time investment can result in better gear. Sure.
That didn't really clear up your point.

If time investment will result in better gear, and gear is a huge part of the player's power, then casuals will not be able to compete with hardcore players and like you suggested they will just have to take a beating in PvP and not fight... That''s horrible game design and they will quit. All I'm saying is that time should only result in about a 20-30% power increase (which is still significant) when it comes to gear.

If time results in better gear, which it will in AoC, and that better gear is an insurmountable advantage, then many/most casuals will quit the game. It's not fun to not be able to stand a chance and to be forced to not participate in PvP so that the other guys gets corrupted. It's a simple fact of gaming/MMORPGs. The game will not survive without casuals. A game that aims for 10,000 players per server needs casuals.

Taleof2Cities

VmanGman wrote: »

All I'm saying is that time should only result in about a 20-30% power increase (which is still significant) when it comes to gear.

Hopefully we'll find out exactly what Intrepid's time commitment/power increase is in Beta, @VmanGman.

You bring up some good points ... maybe the devs are reading this.

At the same time, casual players should not expect instant gratification when it comes to the time commitment to get there. That's an absolute in most MMOs.

VmanGman

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

At the same time, casual players should not expect instant gratification when it comes to the time commitment to get there. That's an absolute in most MMOs.

Completely agree and I never asked for this. I am not asking for easy ways out or for 'carebear' design. I'm just asking that casuals aren't completely demoralized when they get clobbered without standing a chance by people whose gear makes the odds insurmountable. When that happens casuals will quit and the game will suffer greatly.

Dygz

Time investment is not the only way to get better gear.
Again, I'm not sure why you focus on gear as a huge part of a player's power.
There are several other factors, some of which I listed, that are just as huge in Ashes.

You are simply asserting that players with casual time will not be able to compete against hardcore-time players. We have no actual evidence that will be a thing in Ashes. It's just something you are worried about, for some reason.

Corruption is designed to be a deterrent for beating on weaker people, regardless of why they are weaker.
So, if players keep killing non-combatants over and over again, the fault lies with the Corruption mechanic - and PvE-centric players will quit in droves anyway. Really has little to do with armor.
But, again, sure... gearscore gap should factor into Corruption score.

VmanGman

Dygz wrote: »

Time investment is not the only way to get better gear.
Again, I'm not sure why you focus on gear as a huge part of a player's power.
There are several other factors, some of which I listed, that are just as huge in Ashes.

You are simply asserting that players with casual time will not be able to compete against hardcore-time players. We have no actual evidence that will be a thing in Ashes. It's just something you are worried about, for some reason.

Corruption is designed to be a deterrent for beating on weaker people, regardless of why they are weaker.
So, if players keep killing non-combatants over and over again, the fault lies with the Corruption mechanic - and PvE-centric players will quit in droves anyway. Really has little to do with armor.
But, again, sure... gearscore gap should factor into Corruption score.

I'm really confused as to why you are confused.

I agree that there are other ways to assert power in AoC, but gear will basically be just based on time commitment. Whoever has more time will also most of the time have better in gear in AoC (for the most part). I am talking about gear power because I believe that it can be easily balanced by simply reducing the amount of power that higher tier items provide.

I am not talking about PvE centric players that don't want to PvP... AoC isn't designed for players who want to avoid PvP all costs. I am talking about casual players who would like engage in PvP, but cannot because the gear power difference between them and a hardcore player is insurmountable.

KeeperBrGO

I think spending more time to increase power is key but having a ceiling is also important, but no one knows how high or low the ceiling needs to be and how it impacts the game because we don't know how the mechanics will interact and if it will be relevant
There are other contents despite pvp being an essential part of the game as casual as I am, I don't even think about engaging with solo pvp directly

Dygz

VmanGman wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Time investment is not the only way to get better gear.
Again, I'm not sure why you focus on gear as a huge part of a player's power.
There are several other factors, some of which I listed, that are just as huge in Ashes.

You are simply asserting that players with casual time will not be able to compete against hardcore-time players. We have no actual evidence that will be a thing in Ashes. It's just something you are worried about, for some reason.

Corruption is designed to be a deterrent for beating on weaker people, regardless of why they are weaker.
So, if players keep killing non-combatants over and over again, the fault lies with the Corruption mechanic - and PvE-centric players will quit in droves anyway. Really has little to do with armor.
But, again, sure... gearscore gap should factor into Corruption score.

I'm really confused as to why you are confused.

I agree that there are other ways to assert power in AoC, but gear will basically be just based on time commitment. Whoever has more time will also most of the time have better in gear in AoC (for the most part). I am talking about gear power because I believe that it can be easily balanced by simply reducing the amount of power that higher tier items provide.

I am not talking about PvE centric players that don't want to PvP... AoC isn't designed for players who want to avoid PvP all costs. I am talking about casual players who would like engage in PvP, but cannot because the gear power difference between them and a hardcore player is insurmountable.

No. Even gear acquisition is not just based on personal time commitment. That's what friends are for in an MMORPG.

I know what you believe, I don't understand why you believe it. Especially for Ashes.
If Corruption does not significantly deter stronger players from killing weaker players over and over again, the game is doomed. Regardless of why a player is weaker.

Expect gear to be balanced with all the other factors that contribute to a player's power. Even for casual-time players. Most likely the gearscore gap factoring into Corruption score will be part of that balance.

mcstackerson

He is talking about people who want to pvp but don't have the gear for it to be enjoyable. In some games, you need to grind for months to be able to stand a chance in a fight, which sucks for people who want to fight.

VmanGman

KeeperBrGO wrote: »

I think spending more time to increase power is key but having a ceiling is also important, but no one knows how high or low the ceiling needs to be and how it impacts the game because we don't know how the mechanics will interact and if it will be relevant
There are other contents despite pvp being an essential part of the game as casual as I am, I don't even think about engaging with solo pvp directly

So you would argue that it's acceptable game design to

Dygz wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Time investment is not the only way to get better gear.
Again, I'm not sure why you focus on gear as a huge part of a player's power.
There are several other factors, some of which I listed, that are just as huge in Ashes.

You are simply asserting that players with casual time will not be able to compete against hardcore-time players. We have no actual evidence that will be a thing in Ashes. It's just something you are worried about, for some reason.

Corruption is designed to be a deterrent for beating on weaker people, regardless of why they are weaker.
So, if players keep killing non-combatants over and over again, the fault lies with the Corruption mechanic - and PvE-centric players will quit in droves anyway. Really has little to do with armor.
But, again, sure... gearscore gap should factor into Corruption score.

I'm really confused as to why you are confused.

I agree that there are other ways to assert power in AoC, but gear will basically be just based on time commitment. Whoever has more time will also most of the time have better in gear in AoC (for the most part). I am talking about gear power because I believe that it can be easily balanced by simply reducing the amount of power that higher tier items provide.

I am not talking about PvE centric players that don't want to PvP... AoC isn't designed for players who want to avoid PvP all costs. I am talking about casual players who would like engage in PvP, but cannot because the gear power difference between them and a hardcore player is insurmountable.

No. Even gear acquisition is not just based on personal time commitment. That's what friends are for in an MMORPG.

I know what you believe, I don't understand why you believe it. Especially for Ashes.
If Corruption does not significantly deter stronger players from killing weaker players over and over again, the game is doomed. Regardless of why a player is weaker.

Expect gear to be balanced with all the other factors that contribute to a player's power. Even for casual-time players. Most likely the gearscore gap factoring into Corruption score will be part of that balance.

Friends won't make up for the difference in time commitment that someone else can put it... they will have more boss kills, more materials, and more gold to get better gear. Not to mention that they have friends too... so time is the only variable. Then, if the gear power is too great, casuals will lose every time.

Your argument is still that if a casual gets attacked by a hardcore player, his best options is to just sit there. What happens when the second and third and maybe fourth hardcore player rolls by and kills the casual. He just has to sit there every time so the hardcore player gains corruption? That is bonkers game design. And we're not even talking about just corruption. What happens when casuals try to run a caravan? They just forfeit it every time hardcore players roll through? All I'm saying is that gear should not account for too much of a player's power. This literally does not detract from gameplay in any way except that it makes it so that people who have more time can't just roll over people who have less time. Literally... the only downside to gear not contributing to more than 20-30% of a player's power (which is still significant) is that hardcore players can't just steam roll casual players.

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