So will it be possible to earn/convert in game currency for (Embers) Cash shop currency?

I would like the feature. I think it would bury the issues with the cash shop cosmetics as it stands.
People/players who have more time to play and less real world funds can work* their way to a cosmetic purchase via an in game currency sink...More active players on the server, more incentive to stay subscribed, bigger population motive.

consumers with bursting wallets can still buy the (embers) with $ and purchase cosmetics too...

win win.

To clarify this is not a 2 way exchange. $--->Embers (cosmetics)<---game currency.

Unlike GW2 $--->Gems<--->gold.

So you cannot P2W buy gold. Just to be clear.

Obviously this is Hypothetical. Embers are not an entity as of yet merely eluded too.

But any Topics regarding them seem to be ignored or overlooked. So I'm bumping up Embers into a possible discussion again.

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CROW3

Noaani wrote: »

The simple fact is, if embers are able to be obtained in game, Intrepid will make less money. If Intrepid make less money, that means less additional post launch content for the game.

Not necessarily. If there were a correlation between earned embers (still adhering to my constraints above) and player retention, this would would be a benefit to IS’s bottom line.

Again, what I think would be part of exploring this option would be calibrating the earn rate to be low enough as to not offset direct sales, but high enough to not be completely written off as unattainable. That’s a whole lot of gray to play with.

bloodprophet

Your assuming the reason people keep paying their sub is for the free stuff.

CROW3

bloodprophet wrote: »

Your assuming the reason people keep paying their sub is for the free stuff.

No, I’m saying take an active role in exploring whether there is a connection there, then understand if it’s worthwhile to invest in that area.

By definition that’s not an assumption.

Noaani

CROW3 wrote: »

Not necessarily. If there were a correlation between earned embers (still adhering to my constraints above) and player retention, this would would be a benefit to IS’s bottom line.

The thing is, with your suggestion, every single purchase ever made with embers would be supplemented with earned embers. It would be a drastic drop off in revenue for Intrepid.

As someone that would buy a cosmetic every 3 - 6 months at the most, adding a means to earn embers in game would mean I would never need to purchase them.

This means that the number of people that your suggestion would need to keep in the game specifically due to it existing is actually a very large number. When you look at the type of player you are talking about here, they need to meet the following parameters in a Venn diagram

Care so much about cosmetics that they will leave a game over them.
Care so little about cosmetics that they won't put any effort in game towards getting them.
Have so little money that they can't afford the occasional cosmetic.
Have enough money that they can always afford to pay their subscription.
Even though they don't care enough about cosmetics to earn them in game, they have to care enough about them to earn embers in game to buy cosmetics.

Now, if any of the above are not needed to fit the kind of thing you are talking about, please let me know. But to me, from what I can see, all five of the above would be needed.

Once the game is launched, and people see what cosmetics are available in game, I would be surprised if a single person fit in to the above description.

Iridianny

Noaani wrote: »

Iridianny wrote: »

Also, that makes no sense that it cuts into revenue stream. The cash shop is apparently only ever going to be an optional service with solely "non pay to win" cosmetics. So, those who just want to pay with real money could do it anyway.

I didn't address it this time around because I have addressed it so many times in this thread and you have ignored it each and every time.

However, you are attempting to call me out on it now, you can't just ignore it this time, so I'll reply again.

Those who want to pay could still pay, but that is a smaller group than those who are willing to pay if it is the only option. The group of people willing to pay for an item that is only able to be obtained by purchasing it is also smaller than the group of people wanting to buy an item that can be obtained with gold - cash shop purchases cease to be a sign that you support Intrepid with this, so many people simply will not buy them as such.

Also, if the ability to earn embers in game is added in - as has been your suggestion this whole thread - then even those willing to pay would not need to pay as much, because they will have embers they have earned just sitting there.

The simple fact is, if embers are able to be obtained in game, Intrepid will make less money. If Intrepid make less money, that means less additional post launch content for the game.

You ignored more:

This would just open more opportunity for people to 1. engage with the cash shop often and 2. play their game longer to achieve those cosmetics possibly providing more months of subscription fees every time more cosmetics are released.
It just gives another incentive for players to playthe game and more to do!

And okay don’t pretend like you aren’t a guy who spent $500+ on a promise “intrepid pack” with this game and feel “invested” because you have thousands of embers to spend on cash shop items. You don’t want your precious embers to be invalidated in any way you consider would make you feel less special for having them. Get over yourself.
Having multiple ways to achieve items in the cash shop is a good idea and would keep people playing longer which is a much more important revenue stream anyone with a product or business understands.

Noaani

Iridianny wrote: »

You ignored more:

This would just open more opportunity for people to 1. engage with the cash shop often and 2. play their game longer to achieve those cosmetics possibly providing more months of subscription fees every time more cosmetics are released.
It just gives another incentive for players to playthe game and more to do!

Engaging in the cash shop isn't of any value to Intrepid.

Spending money on items in the cash shop is the objective.

The game itself should give players more than enough to do, and the proceeds from the cash shop that are spent on additional post launch content will facilitate that.

Your argument here seems to be that you would rather monotonous repeating tasks to earn embers over new actual content - because that is the tradeoff you are suggesting.

If you want to perform tasks to get cosmetics, the game has that for you. Why do you need a second system to achieve that same goal? Why would this keep people playing longer than the in game achievable cosmetics (that are by all accounts going to be better) would?

Iridianny

Noaani wrote: »

The simple fact is, if embers are able to be obtained in game, Intrepid will make less money. If Intrepid make less money, that means less additional post launch content for the game.

Noaani wrote: »

Engaging in the cash shop isn't of any value to Intrepid.
Spending money on items in the cash shop is the objective.

You speak as though you are an expert on this game, Steven's feelings and motives, and finances. Which you clearly are not or you'd be working for them and at Steven's mansion hanging out and not just another consumer on their forms.

You keep arguing about how important the extra revenue stream is to them and there is no other solution, yet when pay to win is brought up you cannot dare acknowledge the idea. So, you are saying that this game is enough of a passion project for Steven to not include the most profitable form of revenue in any mmo, pay to win, that is widely used. But, it's not enough of a passion project to consider other ideas that make players happy, like not limiting the cash shop to just big spenders? You assume he only cares about what you do, as in no pay to win and lots of revenue.

Do you really fail to see how Steven might want players to continue to play his game long term and achievable cash shop rewards are a great incentive to that? You ignore the fact that the bulk of revenue is going to come from subscriptions and that is the most important thing to continue.

You seem so clouded by, like I said, being a guy who spent $500+ on a promise “intrepid pack” with this game and feel “invested” because you have thousands of embers to spend on cash shop items. You don’t want your precious embers to be invalidated in any way you consider would make you feel less special for having them.

Noaani

Iridianny wrote: »

You speak as though you are an expert on this game, Steven's feelings and motives, and finances. Which you clearly are not or you'd be working for them and at Steven's mansion hanging out and not just another consumer on their forms.

Quite the opposite.

I am simply repeating what Intrepid have said.

Steven has said outright that the revenue from the cash shop is needed to maintain the game and continue adding new content. That is just how it is. Me repeating what he has said is not me being an expert, it is me assuming to not know better than the people that are.

You claiming to know better than Intrepid means you must think that you are the expert here.

Iridianny

@Noaani
You keep arguing about how important the extra revenue stream is to them and there is no other solution, yet when pay to win is brought up you cannot dare acknowledge the idea. So, you are saying that this game is enough of a passion project for Steven to not include the most profitable form of revenue in any mmo, pay to win, that is widely used. But, it's not enough of a passion project to consider other ideas that make players happy, like not limiting the cash shop to just big spenders? You assume he only cares about what you do, as in no pay to win and lots of revenue.

Do you really fail to see how Steven might want players to continue to play his game long term and achievable cash shop rewards are a great incentive to that? You ignore the fact that the bulk of revenue is going to come from subscriptions and that is the most important thing to continue.

Noaani

Iridianny wrote: »

Noaani
You keep arguing about how important the extra revenue stream is to them and there is no other solution, yet when pay to win is brought up you cannot dare acknowledge the idea. So, you are saying that this game is enough of a passion project for Steven to not include the most profitable form of revenue in any mmo, pay to win, that is widely used. But, it's not enough of a passion project to consider other ideas that make players happy, like not limiting the cash shop to just big spenders? You assume he only cares about what you do, as in no pay to win and lots of revenue.

Do you really fail to see how Steven might want players to continue to play his game long term and achievable cash shop rewards are a great incentive to that? You ignore the fact that the bulk of revenue is going to come from subscriptions and that is the most important thing to continue.

You are mistaken.

It is not me saying that Intrepid need the revenue from the cash shop to maintain the game and add post launch content - it is Intrepid saying that.

I am simply assuming that they know what they are talking about - as should you.

While Ashes may well be a passion project for Steven, passion doesn't pay the mortgages of his staff, or feed their children.

Ashes may be a passion project, but Intrepid is a private, for profit company. Steven expects a return on his 9 figure investment.

This is why I have been saying that in order for your suggestion to even be considered, you need to find a way to replace the money that absolutely will be lost.

You wouldn't expect Samsung to send you earbuds just because you use their phone a lot - but that is basically what you are asking Intrepid to do - you use the game as a primary product, they have accessories for that game, you want the accessories for free because you use the primary product.

Iridianny

Noaani wrote: »

Iridianny wrote: »

Noaani
You keep arguing about how important the extra revenue stream is to them and there is no other solution, yet when pay to win is brought up you cannot dare acknowledge the idea. So, you are saying that this game is enough of a passion project for Steven to not include the most profitable form of revenue in any mmo, pay to win, that is widely used. But, it's not enough of a passion project to consider other ideas that make players happy, like not limiting the cash shop to just big spenders? You assume he only cares about what you do, as in no pay to win and lots of revenue.

Do you really fail to see how Steven might want players to continue to play his game long term and achievable cash shop rewards are a great incentive to that? You ignore the fact that the bulk of revenue is going to come from subscriptions and that is the most important thing to continue.

You are mistaken.

It is not me saying that Intrepid need the revenue from the cash shop to maintain the game and add post launch content - it is Intrepid saying that.

Okay, but there are other options that can be suggested on their open forums for suggestive feedback and you do not need to argue the logic of the idea with their finances, that is their job and you should leave it to the experts.
Allowing embers the be achievable does not remove the cash shop, I would argue it would have a direct influence on returning monthly subs, the major revenue source.
Also, it brings people into the cash shop, which yes, would have a direct influence on people buying more things. I might go into the cash shop to spend some embers I earned and see something I really want and go ahead and buy it, too. Otherwise, I'd probably never open the cash shop at all. That's why people give coupons, discounts, REWARDS TO MEMBERS, and free samples in any sort of business.

Noaani

Iridianny wrote: »

Allowing embers the be achievable does not remove the cash shop, I would argue it would have a direct influence on returning monthly subs, the major revenue source.

Cool, argue that.

Here is my answer to a previous poster that suggestion this - the people that would subscribe to a game with this that would not subscribe to the game game without this need to fit all five of the following.

Care so much about cosmetics that they will leave a game over them.
Care so little about cosmetics that they won't put any effort in game towards getting them.
Have so little money that they can't afford the occasional cosmetic.
Have enough money that they can always afford to pay their subscription.
Even though they don't care enough about cosmetics to earn them in game, they have to care enough about them to earn embers in game to buy cosmetics.

That creates a very small set of people - arguably one that doesn't actually exist as they need to both be willing to put in game effort in, and also not be willing to put in game effort in.

So, who are these people that would subscribe to the game with this but wouldn't subscribe without it, and who are numerous enough to make up the loss Intrepid would suffer on basically every cash shop purchase?

It is unlikely that you will not be aware of what is for sale on the cash shop - you will see people wearing it in game. So the idea that getting free embers will encourage people to go to the cash shop and see items they didn't know about is just inaccurate.

If Intrepid wanted to have some sort of rewards program (the community has already rejected any form of daily log in reward, saying that just making as good a game as you can is better), that is their call. However, that is not what is being asked for in this thread, and is not what I am arguing against.

Iridianny wrote: »

Okay, but there are other options that can be suggested on their open forums for suggestive feedback and you do not need to argue the logic of the idea with their finances, that is their job and you should leave it to the experts.

Are you suggesting here that these forums are open and anyone is free to post ideas, but that the forums are not so open that we can't discuss the logic of those ideas?

Iridianny

Noaani wrote: »

the people that would subscribe to a game with this that would not subscribe to the game game without this need to fit all five of the following.

Care so much about cosmetics that they will leave a game over them.
Care so little about cosmetics that they won't put any effort in game towards getting them.
Have so little money that they can't afford the occasional cosmetic.
Have enough money that they can always afford to pay their subscription.
Even though they don't care enough about cosmetics to earn them in game, they have to care enough about them to earn embers in game to buy cosmetics.

Says who besides you? This is a very limited view on people who play mmos and doesn't really apply to what I said.

Noaani

Iridianny wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

the people that would subscribe to a game with this that would not subscribe to the game game without this need to fit all five of the following.

Care so much about cosmetics that they will leave a game over them.
Care so little about cosmetics that they won't put any effort in game towards getting them.
Have so little money that they can't afford the occasional cosmetic.
Have enough money that they can always afford to pay their subscription.
Even though they don't care enough about cosmetics to earn them in game, they have to care enough about them to earn embers in game to buy cosmetics.

Says who besides you? This is a very limited view on people who play mmos and doesn't really apply to what I said.

I'm asking you, not telling you.

You are saying there are people that will subscribe to Ashes with a means to earn embers in game that would not subscribe to Ashes without that means.

I am trying to work out what it is that would motivate these people, and as far as I can see, all five of those conditions need to be met.

Which of them do you not think need to be met in order for someone to subscribe to Ashes with a means to earn embers in game that would not subscribe to Ashes without that means?

Iridianny

Noaani wrote: »

You are saying there are people that will subscribe to Ashes with a means to earn embers in game that would not subscribe to Ashes without that means.

Nope. It's just an incentive to keep subscribing regardless of the reason they might not and adds extra content to players. You cannot categorize all players into those groups so I cannot answer your question.

Noaani

Iridianny wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

You are saying there are people that will subscribe to Ashes with a means to earn embers in game that would not subscribe to Ashes without that means.

Nope. It's just an incentive to keep subscribing regardless of the reason they might not and adds extra content to players. You cannot categorize all players into those groups so I cannot answer your question.

I don't think you understand what I am saying.

I am not giving you a list of groups that all players must fit in to, I am giving you a list of requirements that any one player must adhere to (as in, all must be present in that one player) in order for that player to want to sub to Ashes with your suggestion, but who won't sub without it.

I'll go over each of them to illustrate my point.

The first is that the player must care about cosmetics. If they do not, then obviously they will not care about any of this.

The second is that they must not care about cosmetics so much that they are willing to spend time to get them. If they were willing to spend time on cosmetics, the game already offers this for them, so they don't need this suggestion of yours.

The third is that they can't afford cosmetics. if they could afford them, they wouldn't be concerned with this at all.

The fourth is that they can afford the subscription. If they can't afford the subscription, they are obviously not going to subscribe, regardless of if this is present in the game or not.

The fifth is that they must be willing to put time and effort in to earning embers. If they aren't willing to put that time in, then this system is meaningless to them.

Now, going back to YOUR statement that there are players that will subscribe to the game with your suggestion that would not subscribe to the game without it (and enough of these to make up the lost revenue), which of the above five things do you think is not needed?

You do now seem to be somewhat backtracking, and are just saying that the ability to earn embers in game is just a reason to keep subscribing. Why would this be a reason to keep subscribing? If the game is good, people will subscribe, if it is not good, they will not subscribe. People aren't going to subscribe to a game that is not good just because they can earn cosmetics, and they aren't going to unsubscribe from a game just because they only have one means of earning cosmetics within the game as opposed to two methods.

Iridianny

@noanni
Honestly why are you arguing against allowing embers to be earned in game? I really cannot see why it affects you besides just that you don't want people to have access to embers through game mechanics because you had to pay for them.
As for revenue streams, there are plenty of options after the game is released, some that aren't even in game! For example, one being collectibles and toys. I think it's ridiculous you are so obsessed with the revenue of this game that isn't even out yet that you cannot even allow people to suggest ideas. As I said before, leave the arguing of this game's finances to the "experts."

Noaani

Iridianny wrote: »

I think it's ridiculous you are so obsessed with the revenue of this game that isn't even out yet that you cannot even allow people to suggest ideas.

Where have I stopped you suggesting ideas?

You had an idea, I pointed out the inherent flaws in it. I even then suggested you try and come up with a solution to those flaws.

What in that is me not allowing you to suggest ideas?

Iridianny

Noaani wrote: »

Iridianny wrote: »

I think it's ridiculous you are so obsessed with the revenue of this game that isn't even out yet that you cannot even allow people to suggest ideas.

Where have I stopped you suggesting ideas?

You had an idea, I pointed out the inherent flaws in it. I even then suggested you try and come up with a solution to those flaws.

What in that is me not allowing you to suggest ideas?

Ah correction, your need to point out "inherent flaws" in ideas that you deem would affect monetization when you do not have the knowledge of the company finances to accurately do so without making assumptions based on your limited information.

Noaani

Iridianny wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Iridianny wrote: »

I think it's ridiculous you are so obsessed with the revenue of this game that isn't even out yet that you cannot even allow people to suggest ideas.

Where have I stopped you suggesting ideas?

You had an idea, I pointed out the inherent flaws in it. I even then suggested you try and come up with a solution to those flaws.

What in that is me not allowing you to suggest ideas?

Ah correction, your need to point out "inherent flaws" in ideas that you deem would affect monetization when you do not have the knowledge of the company finances to accurately do so without making assumptions based on your limited information.

You still don't get it.

I am not talking about my impression of Intrepid, I am talking about Intrepids impression of Intrepid.
If they say they need money from the cash shop to maintain the game and fund post launch content, neither you nor I have any room to doubt that - unless you think you have reason to know better.

I am the one here that knows my information is limited - you are the one that thinks you know better.

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