Protecting Our Casuals: Gear

One big concern I have for AoC is that gear will end up providing too much power. AoC is already a game that will greatly reward those who play a lot which is why I believe that it is imperative for gear to only account for at most 20-30% of a character's power.

People will enjoy grinding out their gear even if each piece gives small increments of power increase. These small increments of power increase will allow the bulk of the population to not feel like they are so out geared that they cannot even come close to competing. This is very important because when those casual players will die over and over to a hardcore player that severely outgears them without any chance of fighting back, they will be very likely to just quit. Hardcore players will have other advantages (gold, skill, etc.) anyway because they play a lot more and there is no reason to further widen the gap between casual and hardcore players.

Please understand that I am not against rewarding those who invest more time into the game. I am just suggesting that their reward should not create such a great disparity between them and casual players. I truly believe that this can greatly help the health of the game and its population.

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VmanGman

Noaani wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

You are the one who started comparing skill to gear in percentages like that.

Yes, as an illustration.

As that illustration, lets assume skill and gear are both equal before any changes (lets call this 50% - since a whole will always be 100%), Now if we cut the power of gear by 50%, that now means that gear is 33% and skill is 66% (the gap may be smaller, but is still what we are comparing to, so is still 100%).

While this may seem good, it still puts the people that spend more time playing the game as being at a massive advantage, but it now just reduces players ability to make up as much of that difference via gear, and Intrepids ability to make it easier for players to make up some of that gap by giving them easier access to that gear.

All of this happened just by lowering the power of gear - without the need to increase the skill cap.

You're still going around in the same circle... I explained over and over again that the skill difference between the best and worst player is always 100% and any gear difference after that exceeds 100%. When it comes to player power gap, we can exceed 100% so we don't need to talk about just wholes. Like I explained, if the maximum gear power difference is 1,000% and the casual attainable gear power is 980%, then the difference between worst and best player would still be 120% (including skill). Based on your idea that more gear power difference gives the devs more control does not work. Because with the above numbers (assuming skill is 100% which it always is) you would not say that the split between skill and gear is skill 10% and gear at 90%... because the devs balanced the gear power difference to be 20%.

VmanGman

JamesSunderland wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

Once again, if you lose when you have a meaningful advantage of 30% then you are not very good at the game. 30% is very significant.

Alright, one last shot at it, lets bet on your comprehension potential.

You see, i really agree with this part: "Once again, if you lose when you have a meaningful advantage of 30% then you are not very good at the game." as this is a correct statement that Skill will win the majority of times especially when that gear disparity is just kinda meaningful and skill is extremely meaningful (which will crush a lot of casuals anyway)

and i disagree with this part: "30% is very significant." Sadly the statement doesn't acknowledge meaningful gear progression for an MMORPG.

30% is kinda meaningful, but not VERY meaningful, 20% is slightly meaningful.
What i find just kinda meaningful you find very meaningful.
This also applies to Casual players but "Casual players" isn't a perfectly homogeneous group which you can simple throw into a batch and speak for them as their protective saviour.
And i'm not even talking about how Casual and Hardcore isn't black and white dicotomy but a spectrum and the original discussion post neglects people in the middle of the road.

You see the problem here? Its a my opinion vs your opinion where all of that is interpretative and abstract as we still don't have the full picture of how Ashes will approach it other than 2 things:

Steven's statement "Gear has approximately a 40-50% influence on a player's overall power in the game."
Steven's experience and main sources of inspiration for the creation of Ashes -> Lineage 2 and Archeage.

Just out of curiosity i would like to ask you a question.
How experienced and knowledgeable about Lineage 2 and Archeage are you?
(especially in terms of gear disparity)

Everything you are saying comes from an understanding that if you spend more time in the game, you need to have a VAST number advantage over someone else. If you are better than your opponent even a 10% gear advantage is significant. That's all there is to it. You don't need to be spoon fed more advantages from pure stat checks if you are already better.

There is no need to belittle me. You simply refuse to understand that when you're better than your opponent, any gear advantage is significant... 20-30% (even with MMORPG gear progression), still leaves the better hardcore player having a significant gear advantage. There is no need to hide behind numbers. If you're better, any gear advantage will be significant because it is multiplicative through your skill. 1% of power increase in the hands of a great player is not the same as 1% of power increase in the hands of an average player.

@Sylvanar All of the above is for you too. I'll also answer some of your points here though.

"Casuals gonna die 100% times despite magically having more skill than hardcore players": If the gear disparity is insurmountable, then yes, casuals will often die to people who simply stat check them.

"Hardcore players play at their best everytime": That's irrelevant. Just because you make a mistake, does not mean that you might not have an insurmountable advantage. You don't need to play at your best to bop people who simply do a fraction of your dmg and have a fraction of your health.

"Casuals are a bunch of 2-3 year olds who need to be babied cuz they have no mental strength": What? Having no chance to fight back in a game that puts so much focus on resource control, territory control etc. means that you have no mental strength? What kind of logic is that? It's not fun to be unable to play the game just because you don't play it as much.

@3arc
@bloodprophet

VmanGman

Caww wrote: »

Renathras wrote: »

Caww wrote: »

sorry - but that still sounds a little like carebear thinking, player power is always gonna be a dev concern and I trust AoC will balance as best as possible

I'm a bit confused. OP's post seems to be saying "Combat should be about skill, not who has a ton of gear."

How is asking for PvP to be about skill "carebear", exactly? o.O

yeah... crying that "I have all the skill and talent in the world but no decent gear so that's why I always lose and I'm gonna quit" is pretty much carebear/snowflake territory

This is so ridiculous. I never said any of that. All I'm saying is that people should not be able to win just because they play the game more and are stat checking people. Skill should be allowed to play a bigger factor.

Here's your carebear mentality. I'm not good enough at the game so I need to hide behind my no life gear to win a fight. If you're so hard and not a carebear, why are you afraid to give casuals a fighting chance by making gear less of a factor?

Edit: @Sylvanar @Happymeal2415 You two seem to agree with Caww so I'll ask you the same thing.

Voxtrium

I should not be able to invest 80 hours a week into this game and whipe the floor of someone who invest 40 hours a week who whipes the floor of someone who invest 4 hours a week. Each tier of player should have an adv but also have a good chance to die. otherwise its not fun for either

Sylvanar

Currently, Steven has said that gear would compose of 50% of characters power. Let say there are 5 tier of gears in the game and each tier of gear having a lower and higher category:
- Common: 5-10%
- Uncommon: 15-20%
- Rare: 25-30%
- Epic: 35-40%
- Above Epic below legendary, say Divine: 45-50%

I am not counting legendries cuz they will be very hard to obtain and very few in number, so holders of these items deserve their well earned bonus power boost.

Now as per what I have stated the difference between different tier of gears would be 10%. A new lvl50 player A with common gear should not stand a chance against a lvl50 player X with Divine gear regardless of skill. It is what I believe. Effort needs to be rewarded cuz X stands head and shoulders above A. Plain and simple.

Player A has to earn the right to be capable of challenging player X. Like how in real world, just because you become an adult you dont become successful because you have skill or money. You have to work to be comparable to those people and then you can go on to challenge them. If player A is going to quit after he dies to X then its better for the community, less toxicity overall.

An average player will have epic gear of lower category at least i.e. 85% of their characters power.
Most hardcore players will have half higher category epic and some divine category gear i.e. 93-96% of their characters power.

As you can see, even if gears contributes 50% towards a characters stats, the difference between the power of an average player and a hardcore will be somewhere around 8-15%.

I know these numbers are assumptions on my part but it is based on what Steven has said gears would contribute. Even after all this if you aren't convinced that your concern is basically carebear mentality I cant think of anything else to say except "ASHES ISNT FOR EVERYONE."

VmanGman

Sylvanar wrote: »

A new lvl50 player A with common gear should not stand a chance against a lvl50 player X with Divine gear regardless of skill.

This is where we differ. You think that just because someone played more, they need to have an insurmountable advantage from pure stat checking regardless of skill. I don't think so. Like I explained above. 1% of power difference in the hands of a great player is very different from 1% of power difference in the hand of an average player. So even the 10% gear power difference that you're talking about is a significant difference when you pit a hardcore good player vs a casual.

Sylvanar wrote: »

Even after all this if you aren't convinced that your concern is basically carebear mentality I cant think of anything else to say except "ASHES ISNT FOR EVERYONE."

I know AoC isn't for everyone. Totally behind that. If you aren't convinced that wanting to hide behind your no life gear and obliterate other players just because you can stat check them regardless of skill is a poor mentality then I can't think of anything else to say.

Edit: @bloodprophet

Sylvanar

I think the power difference of gear matters between a player with average gear (people who have put time into the game beyond leveling) and players at the top. Not between the 2 extremes as I have shown using percentages above.

I have stated what I want to in my earlier comments and have read what you are saying. MMO genre is beautiful cuz it can mean different things to different people unlike other genres of game like fps for instance.

So all we can do is agree to disagree.

VmanGman

Sylvanar wrote: »

I think the power difference of gear matters between a player with average gear (people who have put time into the game beyond leveling) and players at the top. Not between the 2 extremes as I have shown using percentages above.

I have stated what I want to in my earlier comments and have read what you are saying. MMO genre is beautiful cuz it can mean different things to different people unlike other genres of game like fps for instance.

So all we can do is agree to disagree.

And the power difference of gear between an average player and hardcore player would still matter. As I explained above, your gear power is multiplicative with your skill. 1% of gear power in the hands of a great player looks different than 1% of gear power in the hands of an average player. So 10% difference would still be a significant advantage in the hands of a great player. You just have to understand that your argument boils down to “I want to be able to defeat other players simply because I have more time irl”. If you understood that 10% of gear power difference is still significant in the hands of a great player and you were that great player, you wouldn’t mind my suggestion.

Goalid

@VmanGman one of the most important parts of the MMORPG endgame is getting your gear. Guild Wars 2 has the controversial system where completing new expansions doesn't get you better gear, just a different cosmetic appearance. Many people hate that system because even though it does make gear balanced between players for the most part, many don't see the point in participating in the endgame if their new gear doesn't reward them with power.
I think this is a severe problem for your desire to have closer to equalized gear than Ashes then planned. The competition for resources should be server wide and universal. Competition for killing world bosses for mats and getting to do raids for mats / recipes should be high. There should be a market for the best gear in the game, and it should go for top dollar. Your system reduces the incentive to complete all that content. It reduces the competition for resources and PvE content, and hurts the market for gear. That's my main concern with your proposal.

VmanGman

Goalid wrote: »

@VmanGman one of the most important parts of the MMORPG endgame is getting your gear. Guild Wars 2 has the controversial system where completing new expansions doesn't get you better gear, just a different cosmetic appearance. Many people hate that system because even though it does make gear balanced between players for the most part, many don't see the point in participating in the endgame if their new gear doesn't reward them with power.
I think this is a severe problem for your desire to have closer to equalized gear than Ashes then planned. The competition for resources should be server wide and universal. Competition for killing world bosses for mats and getting to do raids for mats / recipes should be high. There should be a market for the best gear in the game, and it should go for top dollar. Your system reduces the incentive to complete all that content. It reduces the competition for resources and PvE content, and hurts the market for gear. That's my main concern with your proposal.

I’m not asking for (nearly) equalized gear or for GW2’s system. I totally hear what you’re saying, but like I’ve been describing 20-30% power increase is still significant and it will cause people to fight over the necessary resources.

Noaani

VmanGman wrote: »

You're still going around in the same circle... I explained over and over again that the skill difference between the best and worst player is always 100% and any gear difference after that exceeds 100%. When it comes to player power gap, we can exceed 100% so we don't need to talk about just wholes. Like I explained, if the maximum gear power difference is 1,000% and the casual attainable gear power is 980%, then the difference between worst and best player would still be 120% (including skill). Based on your idea that more gear power difference gives the devs more control does not work. Because with the above numbers (assuming skill is 100% which it always is) you would not say that the split between skill and gear is skill 10% and gear at 90%... because the devs balanced the gear power difference to be 20%.

It's like you are purposely trying to not understand. Like, going out of your way, ignoring the last half dozen or so posts. You are even ignoring the fact that you yourself just recently said that you can't quantify skill, yet here you are, trying to talk as if you can.

Forget literally everything you are thinking in relation to this, because you have confused the crap out of yourself. I am trying to explain to you that the bigger the ratio of gear gap to skill gap there is between players, the easier it is for the developer to assist in bridging it. If you decrease the importance of gear, you give the developers less room to fix it.

VmanGman

Noaani wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

You're still going around in the same circle... I explained over and over again that the skill difference between the best and worst player is always 100% and any gear difference after that exceeds 100%. When it comes to player power gap, we can exceed 100% so we don't need to talk about just wholes. Like I explained, if the maximum gear power difference is 1,000% and the casual attainable gear power is 980%, then the difference between worst and best player would still be 120% (including skill). Based on your idea that more gear power difference gives the devs more control does not work. Because with the above numbers (assuming skill is 100% which it always is) you would not say that the split between skill and gear is skill 10% and gear at 90%... because the devs balanced the gear power difference to be 20%.

It's like you are purposely trying to not understand. Like, going out of your way, ignoring the last half dozen or so posts. You are even ignoring the fact that you yourself just recently said that you can't quantify skill, yet here you are, trying to talk as if you can.

Forget literally everything you are thinking in relation to this, because you have confused the crap out of yourself. I am trying to explain to you that the bigger the ratio of gear gap to skill gap there is between players, the easier it is for the developer to assist in bridging it. If you decrease the importance of gear, you give the developers less room to fix it.

I’m not missing anything. I just explained to you with numbers that even if the gear power goes all the way up to 1,000%, the developers don’t gain “more room to fix it”… because the maximum does not matter. What matters is the difference between the maximum level and the casual attainable level. If the maximum gear power is 1,000% and the developers allow casuals to comfortably attain 980% gear power, then the difference is only 20% and the developers would have no “more room to fix it” than if the maximum gear power was 20%. The maximum gear power does not matter… it does not give the developers “more room to fix it” as you claim. The only thing that matters is the difference between the maximum gear power and the casual attainable gear power.

Edit: word

Noaani

VmanGman wrote: »

I’m not missing anything. I just explained to you with numbers that even if the gear power goes all the way up to 1,000%, the developers don’t gain “more room to fix it”… because the maximum does not matter. What matters is the difference between the maximum level and the casual attainable level. If the maximum gear power is 1,000% and the developers allow casuals to comfortably attain 980% gear power, then the difference is only 20% and the developers would have no “more room to fix it” than if the maximum gear power was 20%. The maximum gear power does not matter… it does not give the developers “more room to fix it” as you claim. The only thing that matters is the difference between the maximum gear power and the casual attainable gear power.

Edit: word

See, I am trying to keep things somewhat realistic.

Your scenario here relies on casual players being able to get 98% of the way to the best gear in the game.

If you want a serious discussion, try to remain serious.

I am making the assumption - as you should - that Intrepid have a gap in mind for the difference between casual players and more top end players. Your entire thought process is revolving around the idea that Intrepid either will not or can not control this.

They can, and they will.

So, since that gap between top end and casuals is controlled by Intrepid, the only thing worth discussing about it is how much of that gap is made up of gear, and how much is made up of player skill. The gap will remain the same, because Intrepid will be in control of that.

Or, of course, you can assume Intrepid are incompetent - which seems to be what you are implying.

Why is it you are assuming that Intrepid will not control that total gap?

VmanGman

Noaani wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

I’m not missing anything. I just explained to you with numbers that even if the gear power goes all the way up to 1,000%, the developers don’t gain “more room to fix it”… because the maximum does not matter. What matters is the difference between the maximum level and the casual attainable level. If the maximum gear power is 1,000% and the developers allow casuals to comfortably attain 980% gear power, then the difference is only 20% and the developers would have no “more room to fix it” than if the maximum gear power was 20%. The maximum gear power does not matter… it does not give the developers “more room to fix it” as you claim. The only thing that matters is the difference between the maximum gear power and the casual attainable gear power.

Edit: word

See, I am trying to keep things somewhat realistic.

Your scenario here relies on casual players being able to get 98% of the way to the best gear in the game.

If you want a serious discussion, try to remain serious.

I am making the assumption - as you should - that Intrepid have a gap in mind for the difference between casual players and more top end players. Your entire thought process is revolving around the idea that Intrepid either will not or can not control this.

They can, and they will.

So, since that gap between top end and casuals is controlled by Intrepid, the only thing worth discussing about it is how much of that gap is made up of gear, and how much is made up of player skill. The gap will remain the same, because Intrepid will be in control of that.

Or, of course, you can assume Intrepid are incompetent - which seems to be what you are implying.

Why is it you are assuming that Intrepid will not control that total gap?

I am no assuming that Intrepid cannot control that gap. I never said that.

I am well aware that Intrepid has a gap in mind between hardcore and casual players… that’s literally what this entire post is about… all I am suggesting is that the difference in gear power between a hardcore player and a casual player should not be so vast that skill becomes irrelevant. If gear is too meaningful, then skill becomes meaningless. And as I explained above gear power is multiplicative with skill. 1% of gear power in the hands of a great player looks different from 1% of gear power in the hands of an average player.

Why exactly are you against my suggestion of limiting the gear power difference (not removing it)? As I said before, Intrepid increasing the gear power maximum does not reduce the importance of skill because all that matters is the difference between the hardcore attainable gear and the casual attainable gear. The maximum gear power does not affect that balance. The difference between hardcore attainable gear and casual attainable gear is what affects that balance. That same balance can be achieved when the maximum gear power is 1,000% or 20%. More gear power does not give Intrepid “more room to fix it”.

Noaani

VmanGman wrote: »

I am no assuming that Intrepid cannot control that gap. I never said that.

Cool, so all that bullshit above about skill being 100% and gear being related to that was just that - bullshit. Since you now agree that the total gap will be a set thing, that total gap is the 100%.

If gear is too meaningful, then skill becomes meaningless. And as I explained above gear power is multiplicative with skill. 1% of gear power in the hands of a great player looks different from 1% of gear power in the hands of an average player.

While this is true, most games also have a similar effect on the time it takes to get that additional 1%.

When you are at the start of that gear curve, 1% could be found on the side of the road. At the other end, that 1% could take 40 of your friends a week to achieve - just for one of you.

If skill is the major factor in the gap between casual and top end players, that gap will simply never be bridged. Casual players can literally never come close to catching up to top end players in terms of skill - even if they think they are amazing at the game. They can, however, acquire better gear more easily than top end players (due to the above curve), and Intrepid can and will make this easier when they see fit to do so.

Basically, you should look at the gap between casual and non-casual players as 100%. Of that, the skill portion of that gap is insurmountable, but the gear gap can be manipulated.

Now, tell me again how you want to help casuals?

VmanGman

Noaani wrote: »

Cool, so all that bullshit above about skill being 100% and gear being related to that was just that - bullshit. Since you now agree that the total gap will be a set thing, that total gap is the 100%.

What? When I said that Intrepid can control that gap I was clearly referring to the gear power gap since we had BOTH agreed to drop the skill conversation.

Noaani wrote: »

When you are at the start of that gear curve, 1% could be found on the side of the road. At the other end, that 1% could take 40 of your friends a week to achieve - just for one of you.

If skill is the major factor in the gap between casual and top end players, that gap will simply never be bridged. Casual players can literally never come close to catching up to top end players in terms of skill - even if they think they are amazing at the game. They can, however, acquire better gear more easily than top end players (due to the above curve), and Intrepid can and will make this easier when they see fit to do so.

Basically, you should look at the gap between casual and non-casual players as 100%. Of that, the skill portion of that gap is insurmountable, but the gear gap can be manipulated.

Now, tell me again how you want to help casuals?

How exactly do casual players acquire gear more easily according to that curve? What? What kind of game design do you think that AoC has to allow casuals to acquire better gear faster than hardcore players? What?

I actually cannot believe that you’re suggesting that casuals can “acquire better gear more easily than the top end players” especially in a game with AoC’s design.

bloodprophet

Sylvanar wrote: »

Currently, Steven has said that gear would compose of 50% of characters power. Let say there are 5 tier of gears in the game and each tier of gear having a lower and higher category:
- Common: 5-10%
- Uncommon: 15-20%
- Rare: 25-30%
- Epic: 35-40%
- Above Epic below legendary, say Divine: 45-50%

I am not counting legendries cuz they will be very hard to obtain and very few in number, so holders of these items deserve their well earned bonus power boost.

Now as per what I have stated the difference between different tier of gears would be 10%. A new lvl50 player A with common gear should not stand a chance against a lvl50 player X with Divine gear regardless of skill. It is what I believe. Effort needs to be rewarded cuz X stands head and shoulders above A. Plain and simple.

Player A has to earn the right to be capable of challenging player X. Like how in real world, just because you become an adult you dont become successful because you have skill or money. You have to work to be comparable to those people and then you can go on to challenge them. If player A is going to quit after he dies to X then its better for the community, less toxicity overall.

An average player will have epic gear of lower category at least i.e. 85% of their characters power.
Most hardcore players will have half higher category epic and some divine category gear i.e. 93-96% of their characters power.

As you can see, even if gears contributes 50% towards a characters stats, the difference between the power of an average player and a hardcore will be somewhere around 8-15%.

I know these numbers are assumptions on my part but it is based on what Steven has said gears would contribute. Even after all this if you aren't convinced that your concern is basically carebear mentality I cant think of anything else to say except "ASHES ISNT FOR EVERYONE."

This might be the best answer so far.
At NO point ever should the worst player in the worst gear be able to kill or even challenge the best player in the best gear. Even a minor threat is repulsive. However the average player being able to hold their own and out playing someone with better gear can , will and should be a thing.
As far as 1% being a big difference in player power I guess we have much different ideas of what that means. As gear will just be gear(no PvP and PvE gear) when looking at the overall product. When asked about hardcore raids. It was stated that there would be raid content that only a small amount of players will ever be able to do like 1% or so. If everyone has the same power level within 1-5% then there is no way they can pull this off.
A lot of different player types out there. Some chase cosmetics, some like RP and some of us prefer to be always chasing that last .001% of power we can so we can go punch that dragon in the mouth that much harder.
I find the idea of equal outcome regardless of effort sad.

VmanGman

@bloodprophet I never asked for equal outcomes regardless of effort.

You are also aware that games can be designed so that even if two people have the same exact gear power, that one will be able to overcome a challenge and the other won’t (PvP or PvE). It’s called skill based gameplay… not everything needs to be a stat check.

Once again, I’m not asking for equal gear.

Caww

VmanGman wrote: »

Here's your carebear mentality. I'm not good enough at the game so I need to hide behind my no life gear to win a fight. If you're so hard and not a carebear, why are you afraid to give casuals a fighting chance by making gear less of a factor?

dude.... you got it all wrong... I don't PvP at all but I'm not shaking in my boots 'cause I'm gonna get clobbered... I'm looking forward to AoC teaching me a lesson on PvP and you should too... suck it up and take your beating or snowflake and quit

VmanGman

Caww wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

Here's your carebear mentality. I'm not good enough at the game so I need to hide behind my no life gear to win a fight. If you're so hard and not a carebear, why are you afraid to give casuals a fighting chance by making gear less of a factor?

dude.... you got it all wrong... I don't PvP at all but I'm not shaking in my boots 'cause I'm gonna get clobbered... I'm looking forward to AoC teaching me a lesson on PvP and you should too... suck it up and take your beating or snowflake and quit

Wow… you’re so tough. It all makes sense now.

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