VmanGman wrote: » How exactly do casual players acquire gear more easily according to that curve? What? What kind of game design do you think that AoC has to allow casuals to acquire better gear faster than hardcore players? What?
Noaani wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » How exactly do casual players acquire gear more easily according to that curve? What? What kind of game design do you think that AoC has to allow casuals to acquire better gear faster than hardcore players? What? I explained that in the post you quoted. I mean, when you are a top end player and the only item upgrades left to you drop off of open world raid encounters that only spawn once a week for the whole server, are not guaranteed kills when they do spawn and only drop one item per kill, getting item upgrades is rare. Whereas casual players can run a single dungeon and get multiple upgrades. I'm unsure which part of this you do not understand. Yes, most items in Ashes will be crafted, but when the materials to craft your item only drop at a rate of one per week on the entire server, you can't expect upgrades all that often.
George_Black wrote: » Still furthering the conversation?
VmanGman wrote: » Sylvanar wrote: » A new lvl50 player A with common gear should not stand a chance against a lvl50 player X with Divine gear regardless of skill. This is where we differ. You think that just because someone played more, they need to have an insurmountable advantage from pure stat checking regardless of skill. I don't think so. Like I explained above. 1% of power difference in the hands of a great player is very different from 1% of power difference in the hand of an average player. So even the 10% gear power difference that you're talking about is a significant difference when you pit a hardcore good player vs a casual.
Sylvanar wrote: » A new lvl50 player A with common gear should not stand a chance against a lvl50 player X with Divine gear regardless of skill.
Caeryl wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » Sylvanar wrote: » A new lvl50 player A with common gear should not stand a chance against a lvl50 player X with Divine gear regardless of skill. This is where we differ. You think that just because someone played more, they need to have an insurmountable advantage from pure stat checking regardless of skill. I don't think so. Like I explained above. 1% of power difference in the hands of a great player is very different from 1% of power difference in the hand of an average player. So even the 10% gear power difference that you're talking about is a significant difference when you pit a hardcore good player vs a casual. Again you keep claiming it’s “playing more = better gear” which shows us all that you fundamentally misunderstand how RPG progression works. A players has to be highly skilled in order get powerful gear. That could be PvE skill, PvP skill, or market trading skills, but it isn’t just time that is getting them that gear. You can keep shouting till you’re blue in the face that it’s the time investment that makes you perform badly, but it demonstrably isn’t. I can play a game for 10hrs/wk at the hardcore level, and someone else might play 40hrs/wk at the casual level. In your world, that casual who doesn’t do hard content somehow has access to top tier gear where I wouldn’t even though I spend my time raiding and scavenging rare materials. Raw time spent doesn’t matter remotely so much as how players use that time, and skilled players will use their time wisely to advance themselves. Gear is the reward for skill, and yet you want to pretend it’s “unfair” that unskilled players don’t get the same benefit of top tier gear.
VmanGman wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » Sylvanar wrote: » A new lvl50 player A with common gear should not stand a chance against a lvl50 player X with Divine gear regardless of skill. This is where we differ. You think that just because someone played more, they need to have an insurmountable advantage from pure stat checking regardless of skill. I don't think so. Like I explained above. 1% of power difference in the hands of a great player is very different from 1% of power difference in the hand of an average player. So even the 10% gear power difference that you're talking about is a significant difference when you pit a hardcore good player vs a casual. Again you keep claiming it’s “playing more = better gear” which shows us all that you fundamentally misunderstand how RPG progression works. A players has to be highly skilled in order get powerful gear. That could be PvE skill, PvP skill, or market trading skills, but it isn’t just time that is getting them that gear. You can keep shouting till you’re blue in the face that it’s the time investment that makes you perform badly, but it demonstrably isn’t. I can play a game for 10hrs/wk at the hardcore level, and someone else might play 40hrs/wk at the casual level. In your world, that casual who doesn’t do hard content somehow has access to top tier gear where I wouldn’t even though I spend my time raiding and scavenging rare materials. Raw time spent doesn’t matter remotely so much as how players use that time, and skilled players will use their time wisely to advance themselves. Gear is the reward for skill, and yet you want to pretend it’s “unfair” that unskilled players don’t get the same benefit of top tier gear. In a game like AoC time is definitely needed to acquire the best gear. Its open world focus and lack of soul bound items requires players to be able to play a lot and for longer periods of time to acquire the best gear. I’m fully aware of how RPG progression works and especially so in a game with AoC’s design philosophies.
A players has to be highly skilled in order get powerful gear. That could be PvE skill, PvP skill, or market trading skills, but it isn’t just time that is getting them that gear.
Caeryl wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » Sylvanar wrote: » A new lvl50 player A with common gear should not stand a chance against a lvl50 player X with Divine gear regardless of skill. This is where we differ. You think that just because someone played more, they need to have an insurmountable advantage from pure stat checking regardless of skill. I don't think so. Like I explained above. 1% of power difference in the hands of a great player is very different from 1% of power difference in the hand of an average player. So even the 10% gear power difference that you're talking about is a significant difference when you pit a hardcore good player vs a casual. Again you keep claiming it’s “playing more = better gear” which shows us all that you fundamentally misunderstand how RPG progression works. A players has to be highly skilled in order get powerful gear. That could be PvE skill, PvP skill, or market trading skills, but it isn’t just time that is getting them that gear. You can keep shouting till you’re blue in the face that it’s the time investment that makes you perform badly, but it demonstrably isn’t. I can play a game for 10hrs/wk at the hardcore level, and someone else might play 40hrs/wk at the casual level. In your world, that casual who doesn’t do hard content somehow has access to top tier gear where I wouldn’t even though I spend my time raiding and scavenging rare materials. Raw time spent doesn’t matter remotely so much as how players use that time, and skilled players will use their time wisely to advance themselves. Gear is the reward for skill, and yet you want to pretend it’s “unfair” that unskilled players don’t get the same benefit of top tier gear. In a game like AoC time is definitely needed to acquire the best gear. Its open world focus and lack of soul bound items requires players to be able to play a lot and for longer periods of time to acquire the best gear. I’m fully aware of how RPG progression works and especially so in a game with AoC’s design philosophies. At least read the part is bolded for you A players has to be highly skilled in order get powerful gear. That could be PvE skill, PvP skill, or market trading skills, but it isn’t just time that is getting them that gear. Nothing about any of the principles Steven has shared implies that time is the most important aspect of player power. By all means, find a quote that says otherwise
VmanGman wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » Sylvanar wrote: » A new lvl50 player A with common gear should not stand a chance against a lvl50 player X with Divine gear regardless of skill. This is where we differ. You think that just because someone played more, they need to have an insurmountable advantage from pure stat checking regardless of skill. I don't think so. Like I explained above. 1% of power difference in the hands of a great player is very different from 1% of power difference in the hand of an average player. So even the 10% gear power difference that you're talking about is a significant difference when you pit a hardcore good player vs a casual. Again you keep claiming it’s “playing more = better gear” which shows us all that you fundamentally misunderstand how RPG progression works. A players has to be highly skilled in order get powerful gear. That could be PvE skill, PvP skill, or market trading skills, but it isn’t just time that is getting them that gear. You can keep shouting till you’re blue in the face that it’s the time investment that makes you perform badly, but it demonstrably isn’t. I can play a game for 10hrs/wk at the hardcore level, and someone else might play 40hrs/wk at the casual level. In your world, that casual who doesn’t do hard content somehow has access to top tier gear where I wouldn’t even though I spend my time raiding and scavenging rare materials. Raw time spent doesn’t matter remotely so much as how players use that time, and skilled players will use their time wisely to advance themselves. Gear is the reward for skill, and yet you want to pretend it’s “unfair” that unskilled players don’t get the same benefit of top tier gear. In a game like AoC time is definitely needed to acquire the best gear. Its open world focus and lack of soul bound items requires players to be able to play a lot and for longer periods of time to acquire the best gear. I’m fully aware of how RPG progression works and especially so in a game with AoC’s design philosophies. At least read the part is bolded for you A players has to be highly skilled in order get powerful gear. That could be PvE skill, PvP skill, or market trading skills, but it isn’t just time that is getting them that gear. Nothing about any of the principles Steven has shared implies that time is the most important aspect of player power. By all means, find a quote that says otherwise Of course that skill is involved to clear difficult content. However, if you have ever played an open world PvX MMORPG like AoC, you would know that to do the highest level content you need a lot of time.
Caeryl wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » Sylvanar wrote: » A new lvl50 player A with common gear should not stand a chance against a lvl50 player X with Divine gear regardless of skill. This is where we differ. You think that just because someone played more, they need to have an insurmountable advantage from pure stat checking regardless of skill. I don't think so. Like I explained above. 1% of power difference in the hands of a great player is very different from 1% of power difference in the hand of an average player. So even the 10% gear power difference that you're talking about is a significant difference when you pit a hardcore good player vs a casual. Again you keep claiming it’s “playing more = better gear” which shows us all that you fundamentally misunderstand how RPG progression works. A players has to be highly skilled in order get powerful gear. That could be PvE skill, PvP skill, or market trading skills, but it isn’t just time that is getting them that gear. You can keep shouting till you’re blue in the face that it’s the time investment that makes you perform badly, but it demonstrably isn’t. I can play a game for 10hrs/wk at the hardcore level, and someone else might play 40hrs/wk at the casual level. In your world, that casual who doesn’t do hard content somehow has access to top tier gear where I wouldn’t even though I spend my time raiding and scavenging rare materials. Raw time spent doesn’t matter remotely so much as how players use that time, and skilled players will use their time wisely to advance themselves. Gear is the reward for skill, and yet you want to pretend it’s “unfair” that unskilled players don’t get the same benefit of top tier gear. In a game like AoC time is definitely needed to acquire the best gear. Its open world focus and lack of soul bound items requires players to be able to play a lot and for longer periods of time to acquire the best gear. I’m fully aware of how RPG progression works and especially so in a game with AoC’s design philosophies. At least read the part is bolded for you A players has to be highly skilled in order get powerful gear. That could be PvE skill, PvP skill, or market trading skills, but it isn’t just time that is getting them that gear. Nothing about any of the principles Steven has shared implies that time is the most important aspect of player power. By all means, find a quote that says otherwise Of course that skill is involved to clear difficult content. However, if you have ever played an open world PvX MMORPG like AoC, you would know that to do the highest level content you need a lot of time. You don’t need to play for 6 hours straight to clear an open world raid. You don’t need to play for 6 hours straight to escort a caravan. Obviously, yeah you’ll need to spend more days than a hardcore player to obtain the same level of gear, but you can obtain it. Gear is skill locked, not time locked
VmanGman wrote: » That still doesn’t mean that casuals will be able to earn gear faster than hardcore players.
Noaani wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » That still doesn’t mean that casuals will be able to earn gear faster than hardcore players. It means they have the option. Gear upgrades are readily available to casual players - improving their skill is not readily accessible - as doing that takes time. If a player is constantly being beaten in PvP because they can't be bothered getting gear upgrades, you do not punish the rest of the population for that - and yes, what you are talking about is indeed a punishment to the rest of the population.
VmanGman wrote: » If you think that what I’m saying is a punishment to the rest of the population, you must have completely misunderstood me.
Noaani wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » If you think that what I’m saying is a punishment to the rest of the population, you must have completely misunderstood me. I don't think I have. If we assume gear is 20% of what ever we are talking about, and we know we have 16 gear slots, that means each slot is responsible for 1.25% of a characters over all power. Now, since I expect AT LEAST 6 item upgrades at the level cap (realistically, twice that many), that means the average item upgrade sees a character gain about 0.2%. This means a full upgrade of every item would only see a 3.2% increase in over all power. This is not enough of a difference to notice. What this then means is that the developers can't develop content around specific levels of gear, because there isn't enough distinction between each level. this puts an end to the notion of tiered content - as you can't create tiered content without having noticeable gaps in gear at each tier. So, while you may not consider the complete and total absence of tiered PvE content due to this to be a punishment, many others would.
mcstackerson wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Again you keep claiming it’s “playing more = better gear” which shows us all that you fundamentally misunderstand how RPG progression works. A players has to be highly skilled in order get powerful gear. That could be PvE skill, PvP skill, or market trading skills, but it isn’t just time that is getting them that gear. You can keep shouting till you’re blue in the face that it’s the time investment that makes you perform badly, but it demonstrably isn’t. I can play a game for 10hrs/wk at the hardcore level, and someone else might play 40hrs/wk at the casual level. In your world, that casual who doesn’t do hard content somehow has access to top tier gear where I wouldn’t even though I spend my time raiding and scavenging rare materials. Raw time spent doesn’t matter remotely so much as how players use that time, and skilled players will use their time wisely to advance themselves. Gear is the reward for skill, and yet you want to pretend it’s “unfair” that unskilled players don’t get the same benefit of top tier gear. I'm not sure if it matters if it's time or skill, there will most likely be players that won't have good gear and if scaling is too high, they wont be able to reasonably participate in pvp until they improve their gear. As i see it, the goal is to still allow top tier gear to give benefits, just not to such an extreme that people can only compete with others that are in their tier. The more people who can have a competitive fight, the better.
Caeryl wrote: » Again you keep claiming it’s “playing more = better gear” which shows us all that you fundamentally misunderstand how RPG progression works. A players has to be highly skilled in order get powerful gear. That could be PvE skill, PvP skill, or market trading skills, but it isn’t just time that is getting them that gear. You can keep shouting till you’re blue in the face that it’s the time investment that makes you perform badly, but it demonstrably isn’t. I can play a game for 10hrs/wk at the hardcore level, and someone else might play 40hrs/wk at the casual level. In your world, that casual who doesn’t do hard content somehow has access to top tier gear where I wouldn’t even though I spend my time raiding and scavenging rare materials. Raw time spent doesn’t matter remotely so much as how players use that time, and skilled players will use their time wisely to advance themselves. Gear is the reward for skill, and yet you want to pretend it’s “unfair” that unskilled players don’t get the same benefit of top tier gear.
mcstackerson wrote: » With how the node system open and closes dungeons/raids, how many raid tiers would be feasible? Do you really think they should further divide by player item level?
Is it that bad of thing for dungeons to be more about mechanics and group coordination over stats?
VmanGman wrote: » Noaani wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » If you think that what I’m saying is a punishment to the rest of the population, you must have completely misunderstood me. I don't think I have. If we assume gear is 20% of what ever we are talking about, and we know we have 16 gear slots, that means each slot is responsible for 1.25% of a characters over all power. Now, since I expect AT LEAST 6 item upgrades at the level cap (realistically, twice that many), that means the average item upgrade sees a character gain about 0.2%. This means a full upgrade of every item would only see a 3.2% increase in over all power. This is not enough of a difference to notice. What this then means is that the developers can't develop content around specific levels of gear, because there isn't enough distinction between each level. this puts an end to the notion of tiered content - as you can't create tiered content without having noticeable gaps in gear at each tier. So, while you may not consider the complete and total absence of tiered PvE content due to this to be a punishment, many others would. No idea why you’re expecting at least 6 tiers…
Noaani wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » Noaani wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » If you think that what I’m saying is a punishment to the rest of the population, you must have completely misunderstood me. I don't think I have. If we assume gear is 20% of what ever we are talking about, and we know we have 16 gear slots, that means each slot is responsible for 1.25% of a characters over all power. Now, since I expect AT LEAST 6 item upgrades at the level cap (realistically, twice that many), that means the average item upgrade sees a character gain about 0.2%. This means a full upgrade of every item would only see a 3.2% increase in over all power. This is not enough of a difference to notice. What this then means is that the developers can't develop content around specific levels of gear, because there isn't enough distinction between each level. this puts an end to the notion of tiered content - as you can't create tiered content without having noticeable gaps in gear at each tier. So, while you may not consider the complete and total absence of tiered PvE content due to this to be a punishment, many others would. No idea why you’re expecting at least 6 tiers… Because that is an incredibly low number. Lets assume there is a base level of total crap gear. Then there is a tier of solo obtainable gear on top of that. Then there are two tiers of group obtainable gear, and two tiers of raid obtainable gear. That is already 6 tiers of gear. I would have to question basically every single thing you have to say if you think that few gear tiers is adequate. Realistically, there should be 6 tiers of group obtainable gear - let alone solo or raid.
