Protecting Our Casuals: Gear

One big concern I have for AoC is that gear will end up providing too much power. AoC is already a game that will greatly reward those who play a lot which is why I believe that it is imperative for gear to only account for at most 20-30% of a character's power.

People will enjoy grinding out their gear even if each piece gives small increments of power increase. These small increments of power increase will allow the bulk of the population to not feel like they are so out geared that they cannot even come close to competing. This is very important because when those casual players will die over and over to a hardcore player that severely outgears them without any chance of fighting back, they will be very likely to just quit. Hardcore players will have other advantages (gold, skill, etc.) anyway because they play a lot more and there is no reason to further widen the gap between casual and hardcore players.

Please understand that I am not against rewarding those who invest more time into the game. I am just suggesting that their reward should not create such a great disparity between them and casual players. I truly believe that this can greatly help the health of the game and its population.

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Kai37

I understand your sentiment @VmanGman and I think you are right to be concerned about the potential punishing environment for casual players. Its a tough one that's hard to manage.

I think that every game has to be careful when playing with player incentive, which is really what is being discussed. Whether we like it or not, it would be less interesting to a player to pursue gear when it contributes less to their overall power.

To be honest, I think the type of casual player that will be interested in AoC will be those that are somewhat seasoned with having to deal with the broad spectrum of player types in PvP-centric games which will likely mean that their expectations will prepare them for a few savage beatings.
Also, in a game like AoC where the combat system is not just tab targeting, gear acts more as an amplifier of skill than its own power source. In a game like WoW for example, there were many classes where you could just face roll your keyboard and you would win just due to gear, there was no aiming, positioning wasn't nearly as critical and people couldn't really avoid what you did to them (generalizing here people, mostly being comparative). AoC will be much more dynamic and therefore skill will likely allow for someone in much lower gear to compete at a higher level, at least when compared with other MMORPGs that have static combat.

Like others I am hoping that the corruption system protects the casual players from specific formats of PvP where they are most vulnerable (being solo out in the world), because if we are honest, if/when a hardcore player wants to kill a casual player, IT WILL HAPPEN... gear will have little to do with it either way. There might be 1 in 100 cases where this isn't true but for the most part I don't think reducing the gear contribution from 50% to 30% will achieve anything for casuals, maybe for the hardcore elite vs the hardcore, but not for casuals.

I think a better way to tackle this issue would be to have systems in place that push the communities together so that the pool of people you PvP against is diverse. This way your experience would be dynamic, sometimes you would get owned and have that, "Wow, that guy is super geared" moment, other times you would have that "I just stomped that nub" moment. I don't know exactly how to do this but in my mind its the healthiest for the game in every measurable way.

Another potential buffer for this is a slightly different take on progression that includes power diversity rather than escalation. Tough with gear but the concept is that you progress and get "stronger" by having more options and choices rather than just an increase in your character's metrics. A larger pool of skills to choose from or gear having talents or perks that interact with the way you play all increase your strength but not through straight up numbers.
This allows for gear to be less of a contribution to your characters metrics but the net result is likely the same, if not worse than the current situation as this emphasizes skill and adds complexity.

BlackBrony

Goalid wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

I dunno why people insist on using the word cater.
Casuals will be well-supported in Ashes.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Ashes_of_Creation#Casual_vs._hardcore_players
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP-lOFzYkCM&t=1115s
mark: 18:05

Watching the video, the most important quotes from Steven were:
That casuals would eventually be able to get the same accomplishments as hardcore players, just at a later date. Nobody here disagrees with that, and that's how it should be.
That hardcore players would need large casual player populations to help develop their nodes. And I think that's a wonderful way to have hardcore players interact friendly with casual players, but this still isn't saying that casuals will be able to compete in PvP with hardcore players or that there will be a short gear grind to help casuals, which is what this post is about.

Why? Why would the hardcore players need casuals if they have so much more time to play? Also, is farming fun? Is getting ganked while farming fun?
As casual you won't be able to join dungeons, except maybe on the weekends. That means that your knowledge of the dungeon itself is lower, your gear is lower. Why would hardcore players take you with when they can take another Hardcore?
That leaves you with farming. So, what exactly are you offering that hardcore players can't do themselves? We could say that leveling an alt takes a lot of time, and maybe professions will reflect this, so maybe a casual will bring what a hardcore player needs.
Does that mean that casuals will only farm close to the node? What about ganks?
I think the game is greatly designed for people with 6+hours a day, but I struggle to find what casuals will do, that is actually fun.

Caeryl

Look, if someone comes into a game that’s designed as (at least partially) hardcore, in a genre that by design requires a lot of time knowing they don’t want to be hardcore and they cannot put in that time. When they say “Change this game to appeal to me or I’ll quit”, the correct course of action is to let them quit. At the very least they need to quit being an entitled little brat, and if they can’t manage that, then they should stop logging in altogether.

VmanGman

Caeryl wrote: »

Look, if someone comes into a game that’s designed as (at least partially) hardcore, in a genre that by design requires a lot of time knowing they don’t want to be hardcore and they cannot put in that time. When they say “Change this game to appeal to me or I’ll quit”, the correct course of action is to let them quit. At the very least they need to quit being an entitled little brat, and if they can’t manage that, then they should stop logging in altogether.

And then the game will die. You act like casuals are a pest… when in fact casuals are what keep MMOs alive. They are the masses that bring in the money to non p2w games. They also bring in content… the more players you have, the more content there is. AoC needs to be designed for casuals as well or else it will die… especially with its massive intended server capacity.

Edit: word

Dygz

BlackBrony wrote: »

Is getting ganked while farming fun?

In Ashes, will people get ganked frequently enough for it to be an issue?

VmanGman

Dygz wrote: »

BlackBrony wrote: »

Is getting ganked while farming fun?

In Ashes, will people get ganked enough for it to be an issue?

There will be plenty of PvP between the flagging system, guild wars, node wars, caravans etc. If your main option as a casual is to accept your defeat because gear disparity is too great, then the game is not fun. That's all there is to it.

Dygz

Caeryl wrote: »

Look, if someone comes into a game that’s designed as (at least partially) hardcore, in a genre that by design requires a lot of time knowing they don’t want to be hardcore and they cannot put in that time. When they say “Change this game to appeal to me or I’ll quit”, the correct course of action is to let them quit. At the very least they need to quit being an entitled little brat, and if they can’t manage that, then they should stop logging in altogether.

Don't have to change the game, but if I don't like the gameplay, I will quit.
Forced PvP is major factor.
The entitled little brats appear to be the "hardcore" players.

Here's what Steven says about Ashes:
"I don't think there is an answer that will satisfy everyone - depending on where you end up on the hardcore/casual side you're going to have a different feeling with regards to this. Striking a balance is obviously one of our endeavors...
Traditionally in MMORPGs you're going to see a larger population of casual players than you do of hardcore players; and that's just the way the cookie crumbles from a population standpoint. And because of that and the way that nodes collect experience and advance as a result of player activity, those casual players will actually have more impact on node progression than the hardcore players will: at least as I predict, because of the sheer quantity disproportionate between the two different groups of people."
---Steven

Just as Ashes is designed as PvX game; not a PvP game... Ashes is also designed for both casuals and hardcores, with the expectation that most players will be some form of casual either casual-challenge or casual-time or both. Casual players will be well-supported... with gear as well as with progression paths designed for those who have only have casual time.

That doesn't mean the devs need to "cater" to casuals to make their gear competitive with the gear hardcores acquire. The devs just need to find the proper balance. Which they will do during testing, regardless of whatever percentages Steven has tossed out prior to testing.

All of that being said, most casuals playing Ashes are not going to be quitting because it will take them longer to acquire the best gear. They will expect that to be the case and take steps to befriend hardcore-time players who can help them acquire excellent gear more quickly than is possible if they try to acquire gear on their own, without help. And they will likely take advantage of systems like the Mentoring system to acquire gear faster. Casuals will likely take advantage of other shortcuts, like Monster Coin Events, rather than relying on farming raids.

There's more than one way to skin a cat.

Dygz

VmanGman wrote: »

There will be plenty of PvP between the flagging system, guild wars, node wars, caravans etc. If your main option as a casual is to accept your defeat because gear disparity is too great, then the game is not fun. That's all there is to it.

Again, sieges and caravans are irrelevant because those forms of PvP are mixed groups of casuals and hardcores. The only time people have to worry about gear disparities is when they are solo.
And that is going to be curbed by Corruption. Not because casuals have to accept defeat over and over again, but because the downsides of Corruption will cause the vast majority of players to not kill non-combatants.
It really has little to do with defeat and everything to do with Corruption.

You simply don't understand the game design.

VmanGman

Dygz wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

There will be plenty of PvP between the flagging system, guild wars, node wars, caravans etc. If your main option as a casual is to accept your defeat because gear disparity is too great, then the game is not fun. That's all there is to it.

Again, sieges and caravans are irrelevant because those forms of PvP are mixed groups of casuals and hardcores. The only time people have to worry about gear disparities is when they are solo.
And that is going to be curbed by Corruption. Not because casuals have to accept defeat over and over again, but because the downsides of Corruption will cause the vast majority of players to not kill non-combatants.
It really has little to do with defeat and everything to do with Corruption.

You simply don't understand the game design.

Stop it. Please.

I never talked about sieges. I talked about guild wars and node wars... Those are events that get declared and then people of opposing guilds and nodes will be able to fight each other freely in the world. Wars don't automatically exclude solo gameplay. Caravans are also open world events and they don't necessarily assume that casuals and hardcore players will group for them. Sometimes they might, but sometimes/often they might not because hardcore players might want other hardcore players to defend their valuable goods. Stop it. please don't tell me that I don't understand game design when you don't even understand that I'm not talking about sieges when I say wars.

Dygz

You the one need to stop. Please.
Gear disparity in Node wars and guild wars is not significantly different than it is in other forms of combat with mixed groups of casuals and hardcores - especially not Node wars.
You can't assume who will join a caravan battle because anyone can join.
You the one making the HUGE assumption, and...
You don't understand the game design.

VmanGman

Dygz wrote: »

You the one need to stop. Please.
Gear disparity in Node wars and guild wars are not significantly different than it is in other forms of combat with mixed groups of casuals and hardcores - especially not Node wars.
You can't assume who will join a caravan battle because anyone can join.
You don't understand the game design.

My man, guild wars and node wars don’t just happen in one spot at one specific time. They take place anywhere and over an extended period of time. This means that solo casual members of the guilds and nodes that are at war will be roaming the world and can be attacked solo without the corruption system being involved. Guild wars and node wars won’t always involve group gameplay because a member of said guild or node can roam the world solo during the duration of the war.

I understand the game design very well.

Edit: word

CROW3

VmanGman wrote: »

This means that solo casual members of the guilds and nodes that are at war will be roaming the world and can be attacked solo without the corruption system being involved. Guild wars and node wars won’t always involve group gameplay because a member of said guild or node can roam the world solo during the duration of the war.

It might just be me, but there's this pearl-clutching 'won't anyone think of the children!?' undertone to this argument that smacks of helplessness. If it's just me, it might be worth pointing out before it becomes a thing. All players have agency in these situations:

- If you're flagged as part of a guild war, you're a member of a guild in a war with another guild. If you don't like the impact of that in your day to day, then you can choose to leave that guild
- If there's a node war going on, then all players need to understand the consequences of that war, adjust your expectations in that node, or go explore someplace else for the time being
- Or, just lean into the conflict - and be mindful of what you're carrying so you don't drop it. If you die, you die.

Either way, it's a game - no one is a victim here.

Dygz

It's not just you.

I love to solo, but...
If you are in a WAR, you might wanna run with some friends.

VmanGman

CROW3 wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

This means that solo casual members of the guilds and nodes that are at war will be roaming the world and can be attacked solo without the corruption system being involved. Guild wars and node wars won’t always involve group gameplay because a member of said guild or node can roam the world solo during the duration of the war.

It might just be me, but there's this pearl-clutching 'won't anyone think of the children!?' undertone to this argument that smacks of helplessness. If it's just me, it might be worth pointing out before it becomes a thing. All players have agency in these situations:

- If you're flagged as part of a guild war, you're a member of a guild in a war with another guild. If you don't like the impact of that in your day to day, then you can choose to leave that guild
- If there's a node war going on, then all players need to understand the consequences of that war, adjust your expectations in that node, or go explore someplace else for the time being
- Or, just lean into the conflict - and be mindful of what you're carrying so you don't drop it. If you die, you die.

Either way, it's a game - no one is a victim here.

@Dygz @CROW3

Of course that running with groups is beneficial in a war. However, that’s not what the post is about. The post is about the fact that if the gear power is too great, a hardcore player might be able to roam solo while a casual might not be able to. A hardcore would be able to roam solo and if he runs into another solo player that he is at war with, he would be able to fight while the casual would be forced to just accept defeat (if the gear power is too great). In that case the game’s design would force casual players into very specific gameplay loops that they might not enjoy. These issues could be addressed if gear power differences weren’t so great.

That’s the whole point of this post… If gear difference between hardcore and casual players is too great, the casual players might be forced into gameplay that they don’t enjoy or be asked to just take a beating and that could cause them to quit.

Dygz

It is what it's about when you bring up people in WARS playing solo.

You can state your premise as often as you like. It will remain unconvincing.
The devs are going to balance gear disparity during the play tests.
And they will do so in a manner that has the majority of casuals feeling comfortable because the expectation is that casuals will be the largest population in the game compared to hardcores.

But, also, there will be a variety of ways for casuals to acquire competitive gear besides just grinding the game solo.

Despite all the doomsday scenarios running through your mind.

VmanGman

Dygz wrote: »

It is what it's about when you bring up people in WARS playing solo.

You should read my comment again. I explained how a hardcore player wouldn’t be subject to the same situation as a casual if gear difference is too big. Even if they went solo. And this applies to small groups as well… are casuals relegated and forced to look for hardcore babysitters to be able to go out?

Dygz

I don't need to read it again.
It remains irrelevant. I understood that the first time I read it.

If you are in a war - hardcore or casual - you should bring some friends with you.
And, AGAIN, hardcore babysitter is not the only way to mitigate the issue. There are a variety of ways for casuals to acquire gear that is competitive with what hardcores acquire besides trying to grind through the game solo and friendless.
Casual ≠ helpless.

CROW3

Again with the victim vernacular. No one is being forced into anything. By logging in, this is something you signed up for. If it's not your cup of tea, then set it down and walk away.

Personally, I think the majority of players (regardless of type) will figure out the power equation and work to 'git gud' instead of cowering on the mat. In fact, I think there are a lot more MMO players starving for this exact kind of environment to play in that hasn't been around for a long, long time.

So...relax, they'll figure out the gear balance.

VmanGman

Dygz wrote: »

I don't need to read it again.
It remains irrelevant. I understood that the first time I read it.

If you are in a war - hardcore or casual - you should bring some friends with you.
And, AGAIN, hardcore babysitter is not the only way to mitigate the issue. There are a variety of ways for casuals to acquire gear that is competitive with what hardcores acquire besides trying to grind through the game solo and friendless.
Casual ≠ helpless.

You should reread because you’re clearly not understanding… as proven above when you argued against something that I never argued for. I never asked for casuals to be able to grind gear solo… please read what I say before you blurt out responses. I never asked for solo gear acquisition… I only asked for gear power differences to not be too great so that casual players could stand a chance when they play the game solo or in small groups without needing a hardcore player babysitter.

@CROW3 The players might like the game, but they might not like getting destroyed due to gear power differences that are too great. You have to understand that if casuals don’t feel like they can play the game in small groups or solo because their gear sucks and they are too casual to get better gear and are getting destroyed because the better gear makes fights unwinnable, they will quit. AoC with its massive server cap (which implies that the game is designed for massive numbers) will not survive without casuals. So saying that casuals will just need to quit if they don’t like losing due to insurmountable gear power differences makes no sense.

CROW3

VmanGman wrote: »

So saying that casuals will just need to quit if they don’t like losing due to insurmountable gear power differences makes no sense.

Hmm - that's some interesting editing. Let me know when you're interested in having an intellectually honest conversation.

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