Protecting Our Casuals: Gear

VmanGman wrote: »

CROW3 wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

Isn’t that what development and alphas are for? To discuss these possible issues and make sure that they are addressed?

Absolutely.

That’s all I’m trying to do. The problem is that when I bring this clear issue up (that casuals will quit if they can’t play the game due to gear power disparities that are too great) I’m told all sorts of things such as: they can group up to survive, the game isn’t for everyone, they can do other casual content, I want to be rewarded for my time etc.

The bottom line is that if casuals find themselves losing due to gear power disparities that are too great and out of their reach, they will quit. This is how MMOs have always worked and especially open PvX MMOs like AoC.

I’m not saying all of this just because I don’t want to work for my gear… I want to do that. I want to play AoC, but the game needs the casual masses and my post tries to make sure that they will continue to play.

But it doesn't.

You have no numbers, not even true hypothetical ones. You have perceptions of player styles that others explicitly are willing to 'let slide' for Ashes. You have ideas of what Ashes 'needs' and what methods people use to get 'gains'.

What you have is a perception of how games like this are generally designed, and whether you realize it or not, a ton of expectations (I sympathize, because MMO designers have a long way to go) about what style of thing they will come up with.

If you have this feeling because you played Alpha-1 and saw their stats on the gear, I understand, I have several objections to both the stats and the damage formulae that I was able to reverse engineer from Alpha-1. But they're just test data. I'm concerned that we didn't have those things in better shape yet, but if I didn't have a designer for that aspect, I wouldn't have delayed Alpha-1 because of it.

So what's the basis of your concern, in 'numbers' here? Because right now, your numbers don't work even if you start using hypotheticals OR Alpha-1 data.

The Alpha 1 was not balanced so numbers there are irrelevant.
The basic concern is fine. I think we all have various concerns about a variety of things.
We have to wait to see what the balance actually looks like during testing.

But, again, since we know that Steven expects the largest population of players will be casuals, we can expect that the devs will balance the gear disparity so that it's comfortable enough for casuals that they will not be pushed to quit.

CROW3

VmanGman wrote: »

That’s all I’m trying to do. The problem is that when I bring this clear issue up (that casuals will quit if they can’t play the game due to gear power disparities that are too great) I’m told all sorts of things such as: they can group up to survive, the game isn’t for everyone, they can do other casual content, I want to be rewarded for my time etc.

The bottom line is that if casuals find themselves losing due to gear power disparities that are too great and out of their reach, they will quit. This is how MMOs have always worked and especially open PvX MMOs like AoC.

I’m not saying all of this just because I don’t want to work for my gear… I want to do that. I want to play AoC, but the game needs the casual masses and my post tries to make sure that they will continue to play.

That's all fine - it just doesn't seem like you're actually interested in discussing the topic. I think you walked in with a conclusion and are sticking to it - sans evidence. Hence, not an intellectually honest conversation.

Azherae wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

CROW3 wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

Isn’t that what development and alphas are for? To discuss these possible issues and make sure that they are addressed?

Absolutely.

That’s all I’m trying to do. The problem is that when I bring this clear issue up (that casuals will quit if they can’t play the game due to gear power disparities that are too great) I’m told all sorts of things such as: they can group up to survive, the game isn’t for everyone, they can do other casual content, I want to be rewarded for my time etc.

The bottom line is that if casuals find themselves losing due to gear power disparities that are too great and out of their reach, they will quit. This is how MMOs have always worked and especially open PvX MMOs like AoC.

I’m not saying all of this just because I don’t want to work for my gear… I want to do that. I want to play AoC, but the game needs the casual masses and my post tries to make sure that they will continue to play.

But it doesn't.

You have no numbers, not even true hypothetical ones. You have perceptions of player styles that others explicitly are willing to 'let slide' for Ashes. You have ideas of what Ashes 'needs' and what methods people use to get 'gains'.

What you have is a perception of how games like this are generally designed, and whether you realize it or not, a ton of expectations (I sympathize, because MMO designers have a long way to go) about what style of thing they will come up with.

If you have this feeling because you played Alpha-1 and saw their stats on the gear, I understand, I have several objections to both the stats and the damage formulae that I was able to reverse engineer from Alpha-1. But they're just test data. I'm concerned that we didn't have those things in better shape yet, but if I didn't have a designer for that aspect, I wouldn't have delayed Alpha-1 because of it.

So what's the basis of your concern, in 'numbers' here? Because right now, your numbers don't work even if you start using hypotheticals OR Alpha-1 data.

If my fireball does twice your fireball’s damage, you are very likely to lose. That’s all there is to it.

Dygz wrote: »

The Alpha 1 was not balanced.

Agreed, which is my point. In order to conclude with such certainty that 40-50% is too much and 20-30% is better, you have to make a lot of assumptions. I count... around sixteen, I think.

Only five of them are even slightly valid even if you assume 'Alpha-1 is exactly how they're going to keep going with this' which they've explicitly told us that they won't. They changed the entire thing to Split Body at the end which offsets the damage calculations, etc.

I personally benefit from these conversations a lot, since it's just 'time I would spend on Cardinal design anyway' and maybe someone will help in my eternal quest to find holes in my struct there, but it has nothing to do with Ashes.

CROW3 wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

That’s all I’m trying to do. The problem is that when I bring this clear issue up (that casuals will quit if they can’t play the game due to gear power disparities that are too great) I’m told all sorts of things such as: they can group up to survive, the game isn’t for everyone, they can do other casual content, I want to be rewarded for my time etc.

The bottom line is that if casuals find themselves losing due to gear power disparities that are too great and out of their reach, they will quit. This is how MMOs have always worked and especially open PvX MMOs like AoC.

I’m not saying all of this just because I don’t want to work for my gear… I want to do that. I want to play AoC, but the game needs the casual masses and my post tries to make sure that they will continue to play.

That's all fine - it just doesn't seem like you're actually interested in discussing the topic. I think you walked in with a conclusion and are sticking to it - sans evidence. Hence, not an intellectually honest conversation.

None of the points that were brought up that I commented against address the fact that if gear power disparities are too great and casuals will keep losing they will quit. Lots of different things were said, but they don’t address that simple fact.

VmanGman wrote: »

CROW3 wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

That’s all I’m trying to do. The problem is that when I bring this clear issue up (that casuals will quit if they can’t play the game due to gear power disparities that are too great) I’m told all sorts of things such as: they can group up to survive, the game isn’t for everyone, they can do other casual content, I want to be rewarded for my time etc.

The bottom line is that if casuals find themselves losing due to gear power disparities that are too great and out of their reach, they will quit. This is how MMOs have always worked and especially open PvX MMOs like AoC.

I’m not saying all of this just because I don’t want to work for my gear… I want to do that. I want to play AoC, but the game needs the casual masses and my post tries to make sure that they will continue to play.

That's all fine - it just doesn't seem like you're actually interested in discussing the topic. I think you walked in with a conclusion and are sticking to it - sans evidence. Hence, not an intellectually honest conversation.

None of the points that were brought up that I commented against address the fact that if gear power disparities are too great and casuals will keep losing they will quit. Lots of different things were said, but they don’t address that simple fact.

In the words of the Spartans:

"If."

Azherae wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

CROW3 wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

That’s all I’m trying to do. The problem is that when I bring this clear issue up (that casuals will quit if they can’t play the game due to gear power disparities that are too great) I’m told all sorts of things such as: they can group up to survive, the game isn’t for everyone, they can do other casual content, I want to be rewarded for my time etc.

The bottom line is that if casuals find themselves losing due to gear power disparities that are too great and out of their reach, they will quit. This is how MMOs have always worked and especially open PvX MMOs like AoC.

I’m not saying all of this just because I don’t want to work for my gear… I want to do that. I want to play AoC, but the game needs the casual masses and my post tries to make sure that they will continue to play.

That's all fine - it just doesn't seem like you're actually interested in discussing the topic. I think you walked in with a conclusion and are sticking to it - sans evidence. Hence, not an intellectually honest conversation.

None of the points that were brought up that I commented against address the fact that if gear power disparities are too great and casuals will keep losing they will quit. Lots of different things were said, but they don’t address that simple fact.

In the words of the Spartans:

"If."

Of course… that’s what development is for. To discuss the “ifs”.

That issue is so basic, everyone, including the devs understand that without it being brought up.
If it happens....
But, it's highly unlikely to happen because the devs expect casuals to be the largest population and they are not going to want them to quit in droves. They will design the game to support casuals... as well as hardcores.
Steven has said so.

VmanGman wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

CROW3 wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

That’s all I’m trying to do. The problem is that when I bring this clear issue up (that casuals will quit if they can’t play the game due to gear power disparities that are too great) I’m told all sorts of things such as: they can group up to survive, the game isn’t for everyone, they can do other casual content, I want to be rewarded for my time etc.

The bottom line is that if casuals find themselves losing due to gear power disparities that are too great and out of their reach, they will quit. This is how MMOs have always worked and especially open PvX MMOs like AoC.

I’m not saying all of this just because I don’t want to work for my gear… I want to do that. I want to play AoC, but the game needs the casual masses and my post tries to make sure that they will continue to play.

That's all fine - it just doesn't seem like you're actually interested in discussing the topic. I think you walked in with a conclusion and are sticking to it - sans evidence. Hence, not an intellectually honest conversation.

None of the points that were brought up that I commented against address the fact that if gear power disparities are too great and casuals will keep losing they will quit. Lots of different things were said, but they don’t address that simple fact.

In the words of the Spartans:

"If."

Of course… that’s what development is for. To discuss the “ifs”.

Then go for it. Discuss some 'ifs' with me.

Because my assertion is that your numbers are wrong. If all you care about is 'please balance gear', then no one who is currently still talking with you, actually has an objection to that.

If you are saying '40% of character's power is definitely too much', show me.

Dygz wrote: »

That issue is so basic, everyone, including the devs understand that without it being brought up.
If it happens....
But, it's highly unlikely to happen because the devs expect casuals to be the largest population and they are not going to want them to quit in droves. They will design the game to support casuals... as well as hardcores.
Steven has said so.

I know you want to have tons of faith, but please understand that in the world many players of competitive games come from, developers fail at this more often than not. Sometimes spectacularly. It's really hard to do. I mean, terrifyingly hard.

So the expectation of players of competitive games, is that the devs absolutely will mess this up. And half the time, they don't even want to accept that it's messed up until some stupidly devoted min-maxer demonstrates it beyond a shadow of a doubt.

And then after that, they usually fix it incorrectly for months.

The graveyard of 'competitive' games is filled with dozens if not hundreds of these, and not just from inexperienced developers. So to someone like me, for example, 'highly unlikely' isn't the perception, it's 'this almost always happens'.

Azherae wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

CROW3 wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

That’s all I’m trying to do. The problem is that when I bring this clear issue up (that casuals will quit if they can’t play the game due to gear power disparities that are too great) I’m told all sorts of things such as: they can group up to survive, the game isn’t for everyone, they can do other casual content, I want to be rewarded for my time etc.

The bottom line is that if casuals find themselves losing due to gear power disparities that are too great and out of their reach, they will quit. This is how MMOs have always worked and especially open PvX MMOs like AoC.

I’m not saying all of this just because I don’t want to work for my gear… I want to do that. I want to play AoC, but the game needs the casual masses and my post tries to make sure that they will continue to play.

That's all fine - it just doesn't seem like you're actually interested in discussing the topic. I think you walked in with a conclusion and are sticking to it - sans evidence. Hence, not an intellectually honest conversation.

None of the points that were brought up that I commented against address the fact that if gear power disparities are too great and casuals will keep losing they will quit. Lots of different things were said, but they don’t address that simple fact.

In the words of the Spartans:

"If."

Of course… that’s what development is for. To discuss the “ifs”.

Then go for it. Discuss some 'ifs' with me.

Because my assertion is that your numbers are wrong. If all you care about is 'please balance gear', then no one who is currently still talking with you, actually has an objection to that.

If you are saying '40% of character's power is definitely too much', show me.

I don’t have numbers because there is a lot that we don’t know about the game. I am just asking for balance. The numbers are obviously up for testing. In my experience in MMOs (and other games) when someone’s fireball does 50% more dmg than another person’s the latter is highly likely to lose.

Dygz wrote: »

That issue is so basic, everyone, including the devs understand that without it being brought up.
If it happens....
But, it's highly unlikely to happen because the devs expect casuals to be the largest population and they are not going to want them to quit in droves. They will design the game to support casuals... as well as hardcores.
Steven has said so.

We’ve been proven wrong many times in many other games. So I’m just doing my part during development to bring this up and make sure that it’s addressed properly. It is a crucial thing and the game’s life literally hinges on it.

Noaani

As someone that is.mostly a top end player, I am having trouble finding much relevance to how powerful a top end player would be in relation to a casual gamer.

Most top end players spend most of their in game time in organized activities. I an organized group, I am not going to stop and attack some casual player - there is little to gain, and I am putting the organized activity at risk if I do.

Casual players are more at risk of being attacked in the open by other casual players, perhaps less casual than they are, but still more casual.

Guild and node wars are not really a valid thing to bring up here, nor are sieges. You have time to organize in all three situations, both sides will have casual and top end players (except guild wars - where it is most likely both sides will be top end or both sides will be casual).

If a casual player is caught out in the open while heir node it at war, that is their fault for trying to play a game other than that which is in front of them - if your node is at war, get back to your node.

I really am having trouble finding situations other than edge cases where the power disparity would matter.

Basically, top end players are more concerned with other top end players, not with casuals.

It's not about faith.
You can't fix something that isn't broke.

We can't fix the Corruption mechanic until they implement their Corruption mechanic and we test it.
We can't fix hybrid combat until they implement hybrid combat and we test it.
We can't fix gear disparity until they implement their vision of "balanced" gear and we test it.

If the devs fail to implement their designs as well as they hope, the game will fail.
If the devs fail to balance gear by launch, the game will fail. And nothing in this discussion will change that.

CROW3

Azherae wrote: »

stupidly devoted min-maxer

This needs to be a class name.

VmanGman wrote: »

None of the points that were brought up that I commented against address the fact that if gear power disparities are too great and casuals will keep losing they will quit. Lots of different things were said, but they don’t address that simple fact.

Uhm - because it's not a fact. I get that you really think it is, or maybe really want it to be. Unless you have actual data that actually shows an actual correlation with those parameters, then you're only talking about anecdotes and inferences, not facts. Casuals quit for any number of reasons. I'm sure there are some players that have quit because the time required to gain the power necessary is overwhelming. But what's the % of those players that quit versus the denominator - I have no idea. Maybe it's an edge.

That's why my #1 point above is adjusting based on actual testing. Its priority in that list was intentional.

VmanGman wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

CROW3 wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

That’s all I’m trying to do. The problem is that when I bring this clear issue up (that casuals will quit if they can’t play the game due to gear power disparities that are too great) I’m told all sorts of things such as: they can group up to survive, the game isn’t for everyone, they can do other casual content, I want to be rewarded for my time etc.

The bottom line is that if casuals find themselves losing due to gear power disparities that are too great and out of their reach, they will quit. This is how MMOs have always worked and especially open PvX MMOs like AoC.

I’m not saying all of this just because I don’t want to work for my gear… I want to do that. I want to play AoC, but the game needs the casual masses and my post tries to make sure that they will continue to play.

That's all fine - it just doesn't seem like you're actually interested in discussing the topic. I think you walked in with a conclusion and are sticking to it - sans evidence. Hence, not an intellectually honest conversation.

None of the points that were brought up that I commented against address the fact that if gear power disparities are too great and casuals will keep losing they will quit. Lots of different things were said, but they don’t address that simple fact.

In the words of the Spartans:

"If."

Of course… that’s what development is for. To discuss the “ifs”.

Then go for it. Discuss some 'ifs' with me.

Because my assertion is that your numbers are wrong. If all you care about is 'please balance gear', then no one who is currently still talking with you, actually has an objection to that.

If you are saying '40% of character's power is definitely too much', show me.

I don’t have numbers because there is a lot that we don’t know about the game. I am just asking for balance. The numbers are obviously up for testing. In my experience in MMOs (and other games) when someone’s fireball does 50% more dmg than another person’s the latter is highly likely to lose.

And if that was the thing Intrepid said, I would then be able to back up that feeling you have, with numbers.

But that is not what Intrepid said. They said that gear is 50% of a character's power, and the number of meanings that term has, in nearly any MMO level of complexity in terms of damage and defense formulas, is too many to count.

As I said, if all you want is balance, then wait for Alpha-2 and test a lot of things. But the thing you said doesn't relate to the thing they said unless they are meaningfully below average in terms of design skill, even considering the recent crop of MMOs we've seen.

But don't go 'claiming that the numbers must be less' as the main argument you have. I have a relatively strong hunch what they based the damage numbers and relative stats on, and 50% is not only fine, I'm personally concerned that it might be too little if you interpret that line slightly differently in conjunction with something else.

Are we cool yet?

Noaani wrote: »

As someone that is.mostly a top end player, I am having trouble finding much relevance to how powerful a top end player would be in relation to a casual gamer.

Most top end players spend most of their in game time in organized activities. I an organized group, I am not going to stop and attack some casual player - there is little to gain, and I am putting the organized activity at risk if I do.

Casual players are more at risk of being attacked in the open by other casual players, perhaps less casual than they are, but still more casual.

Guild and node wars are not really a valid thing to bring up here, nor are sieges. You have time to organize in all three situations, both sides will have casual and top end players (except guild wars - where it is most likely both sides will be top end or both sides will be casual).

If a casual player is caught out in the open while heir node it at war, that is their fault for trying to play a game other than that which is in front of them - if your node is at war, get back to your node.

I really am having trouble finding situations other than edge cases where the power disparity would matter.

Basically, top end players are more concerned with other top end players, not with casuals.

You understand that in an open world PvX game casuals and hardcore players will cross paths all the time, right?

Ah ok. So casuals cannot leave their nodes solo during wars. That fixes everything.

VmanGman wrote: »

We’ve been proven wrong many times in many other games. So I’m just doing my part during development to bring this up and make sure that it’s addressed properly. It is a crucial thing and the game’s life literally hinges on it.

No. You're screaming the sky is falling before there is even a sky.
You cannot make sure it's addressed properly in this discussion.
All you can do is raise your concern, which you did and is fine... and then wait to see what the devs actually implement for us to test.
Same as with the people who have concerns about Corruption and every other mechanic that has yet to be implemented.