Azryil wrote: » Heartbeat wrote: » I never played WoW but heard that DPS meters in that game became very toxic and dps roles that couldn't pump out enough damage would be replaced and excluded in raids. Stuff like that shouldn't exist in AOC. Though it could get out of hand at times especially when pugging, I think there are perfectly valid reasons to replace underperforming players in raids during progression. If your team is unable to beat a dps check than replacing your lowest dps with another player that has better performance will lead to more success for the raid team. This doesn't have to be simply because the player is underperforming, it could also come down the how classes play, such as high burst classes vs sustained dps classes.
Heartbeat wrote: » I never played WoW but heard that DPS meters in that game became very toxic and dps roles that couldn't pump out enough damage would be replaced and excluded in raids. Stuff like that shouldn't exist in AOC.
Snale wrote: » Please no combat add-ons that run the game for you or tell you when you're in fire, when to dispell, when enemies are near, etc.
Astronaute wrote: » Any popular sport or e-sport, in real life and in games, has a competitive aspect to it. It comes with some kind of numbers tracking, min-maxing, theory crafting, testing templates etc. The real question is whether or not you want this game to only be casual and dead in few months, or do you want it to thrive, be streamed, bring competitive players and audience etc. I don’t give a damn about competition, but I know that if we remove the DPS meters, we are removing competitive gameplay. WoW was so popular thanks to various addons and ways to customize the user interface to suit everyone’s style. I don’t want addons to help me play my game instead of me, but I want all the addons to customize the interface and show the numbers that I want, where I want (cooldowns, healthbars, skillbars, bags, every single UI thing, I want it customizable)
Dygz wrote: » MMORPGs are not sports.
mcstackerson wrote: » I don't think a game needs dps meters to be competitive.
Azryil wrote: » Dygz wrote: » MMORPGs are not sports. No, but they do have competitive aspects to them, even if not everyone is interested in that aspect of the game.
Dygz wrote: » Azryil wrote: » Dygz wrote: » MMORPGs are not sports. No, but they do have competitive aspects to them, even if not everyone is interested in that aspect of the game. Yeah, Freeze Tag is competitive, too.
Noaani wrote: » And if it were played by adults, you had better bet there would be analysis of it.
Noaani wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » I don't think a game needs dps meters to be competitive. I mean, this depends on the type of game. PUBG as an example has a tool for analyzing any match, where you can view the match from a birds eye view, in real time (or sped up - which I recommend), you can see the loadout each player has, where they are on the map, how many kills they have, and how much damage they have done. While one could argue that this is not a combat tracker, it is the appropriate analysis tool for a BR game. The appropriate analysis tool for an MMORPG just happens to be a combat tracker. If you want to suggest that games don't need analyzing tools in order to be competitive, I challenge you to point to any one such game where such tools do not exist.
mcstackerson wrote: » Ok, correct me if i'm wrong but PUBG didn't have the analysis tool in the beginning and it was competitive.
mcstackerson wrote: » Name a game that you can't play competitively without an analysis tool?
Dygz wrote: » You can analyze anything. Doesn't even have to be competitive. Doesn't mean the creators have to be the ones providing an analysis tool integrated into the system.
Noaani wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » Ok, correct me if i'm wrong but PUBG didn't have the analysis tool in the beginning and it was competitive. PUBG had tools made for it while it was in beta - the first I saw were around May 2017 (beta started in March 2017, and the game launched that December). I should add that I wasn't following the game at all, I was more interested in the tools. mcstackerson wrote: » Name a game that you can't play competitively without an analysis tool? I'm unsure of the merits of this. Sure, you can compete in something without a tool like this. However, you can't compete with those that are using tools, so the question as to if you are being competitive is subjective. These tools already exist, and will continue to exist. This means anyone wishing to be competitive has no choice but to use them. Now sure, there is an argument that could be made that Intrepid don't need to make this tool themselves - I talked about this very early on in this thread (I assume everyone has read every post here). They could well leave things up to third parties to create tools, but then those tools could much more easily be integrated with things like timers and visual elements from the game, meaning the developers have significantly less control over what said tools are and are not capable of doing. If Intrepid make the tool (and if said tool performs the basic functions desired by most players), then Intrepid has full control over that tool. This is why Intrepid have a specific reason to add this type of tool. While the above may not come true, Intrepid creating a tool and building in in to the client is literally the only way there is a chance that third party tools won't become a requirement for any form of competitive play - as has become the case in literally every MMO ever made. Again, them adding a tool may not stop 3rd parties doing so, but it also may. Not adding them will guarantee 3rd party tools. Which is the best option? A guarantee of third party tools and no first party tool, or a guarantee of a first party tool and a possibility of no third party? Essentially, these are the options available.
mcstackerson wrote: » You are changing the subject. The comment I was responding to said that a game could not be competitive without a combat meter. There is no subjectivity about it, that is objectively false. A game can be competitive without a dps meter. Yes, watching a vod or going through logs might help me figure out what i did wrong in a situation but you also learn naturally by playing.
Noaani wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » You are changing the subject. The comment I was responding to said that a game could not be competitive without a combat meter. There is no subjectivity about it, that is objectively false. A game can be competitive without a dps meter. Yes, watching a vod or going through logs might help me figure out what i did wrong in a situation but you also learn naturally by playing. It depends on what you consider competition. It your definition is that people compete with each other, then sure. If your definition is that the game attracts people to it that want a competitive top end scene (my definition of a competitive game), then yes, you need those tools. It isn't because you can't be competitive in a game without them - you clearly can. It is because the game won't attract people to it that want to play the game competitively. So the question is - if a game isn't attracting competitive players, is it a competitive game?
