mcstackerson wrote: » Noaani wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » Noaani wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » To get that many tiers, you would need to divide the content among them when content is already being divided among nodes. That would mean that there are less content for people to do. Content isn't really divided between nodes. Just like in every other game, you will travel to other areas to participate in the content there. If skipping tiers isn't a bad thing, why should Intrepid even bother developing those tiers? This is like saying skipping the level range between 20 and 30 isn't a bad thing - why do they exist if they can be skipped? Yes, I'm saying they shouldn't develop that many tiers and focus on more horizontal rewards. The thing is, horizontal progression like you describe are still tiers. If there is a ring that has physical protections, that ring is an upgrade rather than a side grade if you are taking on a mob that deals mostly physical damage. This is actually one of the key ways tiers in games are introduced without excessive power creep. You run a base piece of content and all the rewards have strong fire resistance - not necessarily upgrades to gear you have, but useful if you need fire resistance. Then the next piece of content requires strong fire resistance. You can't take on that second piece of content until you and your raid have enough loot from the first. That fire content rewards you with high cold magical resistance, and the next zone requires that cold resistance. All of a sudden, without actually increasing the power of characters over all, you have three distinct tiers where one needs to be completed before the next can be completed. The question then that you need to ask is - if there is a zone with that physical ring and there are no mobs that deal physical damage, is it actually even a side-grade in terms of PvE? If there is no content on which it is needed, it is unnecessary. If there is content on which it is needed, it is an upgrade and thus you have tiers starting to form. If there is no reason for an item then it or content should be changed so their is a reason for it. An item can also find it's use in other forms of content like pvp.
Noaani wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » Noaani wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » To get that many tiers, you would need to divide the content among them when content is already being divided among nodes. That would mean that there are less content for people to do. Content isn't really divided between nodes. Just like in every other game, you will travel to other areas to participate in the content there. If skipping tiers isn't a bad thing, why should Intrepid even bother developing those tiers? This is like saying skipping the level range between 20 and 30 isn't a bad thing - why do they exist if they can be skipped? Yes, I'm saying they shouldn't develop that many tiers and focus on more horizontal rewards. The thing is, horizontal progression like you describe are still tiers. If there is a ring that has physical protections, that ring is an upgrade rather than a side grade if you are taking on a mob that deals mostly physical damage. This is actually one of the key ways tiers in games are introduced without excessive power creep. You run a base piece of content and all the rewards have strong fire resistance - not necessarily upgrades to gear you have, but useful if you need fire resistance. Then the next piece of content requires strong fire resistance. You can't take on that second piece of content until you and your raid have enough loot from the first. That fire content rewards you with high cold magical resistance, and the next zone requires that cold resistance. All of a sudden, without actually increasing the power of characters over all, you have three distinct tiers where one needs to be completed before the next can be completed. The question then that you need to ask is - if there is a zone with that physical ring and there are no mobs that deal physical damage, is it actually even a side-grade in terms of PvE? If there is no content on which it is needed, it is unnecessary. If there is content on which it is needed, it is an upgrade and thus you have tiers starting to form.
mcstackerson wrote: » Noaani wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » To get that many tiers, you would need to divide the content among them when content is already being divided among nodes. That would mean that there are less content for people to do. Content isn't really divided between nodes. Just like in every other game, you will travel to other areas to participate in the content there. If skipping tiers isn't a bad thing, why should Intrepid even bother developing those tiers? This is like saying skipping the level range between 20 and 30 isn't a bad thing - why do they exist if they can be skipped? Yes, I'm saying they shouldn't develop that many tiers and focus on more horizontal rewards.
Noaani wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » To get that many tiers, you would need to divide the content among them when content is already being divided among nodes. That would mean that there are less content for people to do. Content isn't really divided between nodes. Just like in every other game, you will travel to other areas to participate in the content there. If skipping tiers isn't a bad thing, why should Intrepid even bother developing those tiers? This is like saying skipping the level range between 20 and 30 isn't a bad thing - why do they exist if they can be skipped?
mcstackerson wrote: » To get that many tiers, you would need to divide the content among them when content is already being divided among nodes. That would mean that there are less content for people to do.
Noaani wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » Noaani wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » Noaani wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » To get that many tiers, you would need to divide the content among them when content is already being divided among nodes. That would mean that there are less content for people to do. Content isn't really divided between nodes. Just like in every other game, you will travel to other areas to participate in the content there. If skipping tiers isn't a bad thing, why should Intrepid even bother developing those tiers? This is like saying skipping the level range between 20 and 30 isn't a bad thing - why do they exist if they can be skipped? Yes, I'm saying they shouldn't develop that many tiers and focus on more horizontal rewards. The thing is, horizontal progression like you describe are still tiers. If there is a ring that has physical protections, that ring is an upgrade rather than a side grade if you are taking on a mob that deals mostly physical damage. This is actually one of the key ways tiers in games are introduced without excessive power creep. You run a base piece of content and all the rewards have strong fire resistance - not necessarily upgrades to gear you have, but useful if you need fire resistance. Then the next piece of content requires strong fire resistance. You can't take on that second piece of content until you and your raid have enough loot from the first. That fire content rewards you with high cold magical resistance, and the next zone requires that cold resistance. All of a sudden, without actually increasing the power of characters over all, you have three distinct tiers where one needs to be completed before the next can be completed. The question then that you need to ask is - if there is a zone with that physical ring and there are no mobs that deal physical damage, is it actually even a side-grade in terms of PvE? If there is no content on which it is needed, it is unnecessary. If there is content on which it is needed, it is an upgrade and thus you have tiers starting to form. If there is no reason for an item then it or content should be changed so their is a reason for it. An item can also find it's use in other forms of content like pvp. While it is true that an item can be used in PvP, if we are talking about PvE - if the item has a use, as in you can't realistically do some content without the item in question (does it have a PvE use if this is not true?), then you do indeed have tiers. You say you don't want to segregate players based on tiers, yet if an encounter is heavy physical, people won't be taken along on it without that physical ring. Is that not segregating players?
mcstackerson wrote: » Also, while I like that kind of thing, it's not the only way to provide horizontal rewards from content if that is what you are trying to imply.
Noaani wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » Also, while I like that kind of thing, it's not the only way to provide horizontal rewards from content if that is what you are trying to imply. Indeed it isn't. However, the same applies to any benefit you can gain. Since raiding is supposed to be pushing the limits of what players can do (it either pushes the limit, or is trivial to those that do), then any horizontal benefit that can be gained will be required for some content. It doesn't need to be an item, it could be anything (even titles in some games have benefits to them that are required or desired for specific content). The point is, if there is something you can do to better kill a piece of content, some people will segregate players based on whether they have done that thing or not. In most cases, it will be the content itself that demands this from players, as top end content by definition needs to ask for the most from players participating.
mcstackerson wrote: » It sounds like a win win. I'm not sure if it's because we are communicating through text but i'm getting the impression you have issue with that and i'm not sure why.
Noaani wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » It sounds like a win win. I'm not sure if it's because we are communicating through text but i'm getting the impression you have issue with that and i'm not sure why. Because this kind of thing only works for a very short amount of time - or very few number of tiers - before an increase in actual power is needed. Even if actual power isn't increased, as you gain items that are specific against physical damage, specific against fire damage, specific to improve your own damage output, or healing, or what ever, you are inherently getting stronger as a character as you are able to focus the items you have better to the situation. If you and I are both mages, both using elemental spells, you are in generic equipment and I am in specific equipment of equal quality, I will win. I have selected equipment to increase my ability to survive against elemental damage, and my ability to deal elemental damage. You, on the other hand, are stuck with generic equipment that increases your defenses against elemental damage as well as poison, physical and what ever else is available, and you also have equipment that increases multiple damage types rather than a focused one. Basically, I have only stats that are of use right now, you have some stats that are of use right now, and some that are not. But that wasn't the point I was making with you. You were saying you want horizontal progression, I just pointed out that even that is vertical progression.
mcstackerson wrote: » But if i'm a warrior in generic equipment and you are in your counter elemental damage equipment then i'm at a huge advantage because of what you gave up for all that elemental resist.
Noaani wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » But if i'm a warrior in generic equipment and you are in your counter elemental damage equipment then i'm at a huge advantage because of what you gave up for all that elemental resist. No you aren't - at least not right now. While it may well be that after taking each other on, there may be someone else to take on that deals a completely different damage type. However, since I also have gear for that - as well as having that same generic gear that you have - you don't have any advantage there.
mcstackerson wrote: » As i said, doesn't need to be done in such an extreme way with stats that effect pvp. Can have items that negate boss effects like A1 pendent or dragon cloak from runescape.
The point is to make it so it's not so extreme others can't compete with you.
Noaani wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » As i said, doesn't need to be done in such an extreme way with stats that effect pvp. Can have items that negate boss effects like A1 pendent or dragon cloak from runescape. These things get very boring very quickly. It's not like a game can give you an item that allows you to take on a boss, and when you kill that boss you get an item that allows you to take on another boss, and when you kill that boss you get an item that allows you to kill another boss... That isn't a gameplay loop that people will keep coming back for.
The point is to make it so it's not so extreme others can't compete with you. See, this isn't something I have an issue with - I have an issue with the way everyone is suggesting. Everyone seems to think that the best way to keep top end and lower end players closer together is to cut off the top end players head. I am saying the best way to do it is to occasionally give the lower end player a boost. If you are arguing against me, that is what you are arguing against.
mcstackerson wrote: » And the constant scaling up of numbers isn't boring?
You say this other way cuts off the head of top end players but your way trivializes their progress by handing it out. To me, that makes it meaningless since the rewards will be given out for free.
Noaani wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » And the constant scaling up of numbers isn't boring? Not if it is done well, no. And I always assume things will be done well, rather than done poorly. If a games gear scaling is done well, it means that top end players will want to respec every few gear upgrades, as the change in the balance of stats on their gear makes different builds better at a different rate. It is actually one of the more interesting and dynamic aspects of a game, but only if it is done well. You say this other way cuts off the head of top end players but your way trivializes their progress by handing it out. To me, that makes it meaningless since the rewards will be given out for free. I'm fairly sure I didn't say any of this. I said give players at the lower end a boost, not hand them raid tier loot. What I am suggesting here is literally what every MMO does. WoW basically resets gear with every expansion (not my preference), and Archeage always adds a new tier of each to get gear (or makes an existing tier easier to get) when it adds a new tier at the top. The issue with basically everything you are saying is that it isn't accounting at all for post launch content. In order for your system to work, the game would need to be perpetually stagnant. This is because most players will progress up to a point where it just gets too hard, and will then simply stop progressing. If that next stage of progression never gets easier, they never progress further. So these casual players NEED that boost - whether it is making an existing armor tier easier to get, or adding in a new tier that is better than what they have, yet still within their means to acquire. Your proposal would mean all casual players are literally at a stand still. Forever. And since there is a desire to not have too great a gap, it would also then mean that all top end players are at that same standstill. What the hell kind of MMO is that? There is a reason no one does this.
mcstackerson wrote: » Stats are customizable because of crafting so increasing gear score isn't going to force you to take new stats and adjust your build.
Noaani wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » Stats are customizable because of crafting so increasing gear score isn't going to force you to take new stats and adjust your build. I was wondering how long it would take you to get here - I was sort of trying to nudge you towards this for a few posts. Since stats on most gear can be influenced via crafting, that means there is no real horizontal progression to be obtained via doing different content in order to get different gear. This means that physical ring of yours simply doesn't exist - or at the very least isn't worth trying to get, as those stats can be had anyway. The only way that ring is worth it is if it has MORE stats than can be achieved with the crafting system - making it an upgrade anyway. And yes, of course the updates add more than just top level gear - I never said they didn't. The fact that there is other content in them is immaterial to this discussion - they add new top end gear, and make it easier for lower end players to get better gear than what they have. If your last sentence were true, then surely you would be fine with the game just not having gear at all. Therefore, your argument here is for Ashes to not have any gear, and I strongly disagree.
mcstackerson wrote: » Stats aren't the only way you create horizontal progression though. On items, you have passive, set, and active abilities that can be applied. For our character, we also have augments.
I'm happy to farm more gear, i just want to do it for a reason besides the game making my gear obsolete.
What would you have happen to node content as the game progresses?
Vaknar wrote: » As for PvP, while a casual player might not always win a 1v1 against a player who has more time to dedicate, there is always strength in numbers and teamwork
