DPS Meter Megathread

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Noaani

mcstackerson wrote: »

In my experience, players become competitive in games because they play and enjoy them.

This is accurate.

However, in my experience, players enter the competitive scene in this manner, but they then eventually move on to other games looking for that next competitive experience. There isn't a lot of movement between competitive and non-competitive play within the same genre - it's almost (though not quite) a one way shift.

As to whether it matters - that depends on whether or not Ashes is wanting to attract that competitive segment of the population.

While I am more than happy to agree that an average MMO doesn't need it to be successful, I would wager that a game like Ashes actually does. This game won't be able to keep hold of casual gamers (they will play for a while, just not long term), and will be constantly losing the tail end of gamers that aren't casual, yet aren't that competitive segment.

If they don't have a solid chunk of that competitive set, who do they have?

Tragnar

dps meters are analytical tools when the design of the game calls for them - it just happens that the typical mmo formula is requiring them in every iteration of the genre.

The reason is simple, players need some feedback whether pressing skills in this order is better than in the other order and it doesnt matter how deep you are in creating builds.

So if you don't want meters to exist then you need to satisfy this basic mmo need for performance feedback. It can simply be some custom room with ui to test shit and transparent gameplay feedback so the player never needs to ask "wtf killed me", because he knew the moment he died what happened and why.

you don't give players this feedback and a large percentage will quit, another will use unofficial meters, some will learn to live with it and masochists will love it

Dygz

Players don't need feedback from DPS meters. There are other ways to evaluate skill efficacy.
Also... DPS meters don't answer "WTF killed me?"

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

DPS meters don't answer "WTF killed me?"

Combat trackers absolutely do.

tautau

How do we assess the abilities of healers without a HPS (Heals per Second) meter? We seem to have gone fine without this feature. Admittedly, my example is off target in several ways: usually there is just one healer per party, there are a lot more damage dealers involved than healers, there are probably more replacement damage dealers available than there are replacement healers, etc. More people are interested in DPS than are in HPS, but HPS could be a useful measure, right?

What other things could be measured? Crafting success percentage (assuming a random component)? Gold income per day? Friends made per day? Miles travelled per week? Contribution to home node advancement per week? Quest success/failure ratio?

I am not taking a position on the pro/anti DPS argument. It is one of potentially many 'success' measures and one that is popular with lots of players. The 'Heals per Second' and 'Wealth per Day' are more interesting to me, personally.

Azryil

Dygz wrote: »

Players don't need feedback from DPS meters. There are other ways to evaluate skill efficacy.
Also... DPS meters don't answer "WTF killed me?"

I haven't seen a "dps meter" in any game that was restricted to just displaying dps, they have always been a general combat log parser that includes dps, damage taken, healing, and yes death logs.

Noaani

tautau wrote: »

How do we assess the abilities of healers without a HPS (Heals per Second) meter? We seem to have gone fine without this feature.

I've been using one since 2005 - the first combat tracker I ever used was able to measure heals.

I've also used ACT to assist me with both marketplace sales in MMO's and crafting success, among many other things.

I've also used it for non-gaming applications as well, but there is no need to get in to that right now.

mcstackerson

Noaani wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

In my experience, players become competitive in games because they play and enjoy them.

This is accurate.

However, in my experience, players enter the competitive scene in this manner, but they then eventually move on to other games looking for that next competitive experience. There isn't a lot of movement between competitive and non-competitive play within the same genre - it's almost (though not quite) a one way shift.

As to whether it matters - that depends on whether or not Ashes is wanting to attract that competitive segment of the population.

While I am more than happy to agree that an average MMO doesn't need it to be successful, I would wager that a game like Ashes actually does. This game won't be able to keep hold of casual gamers (they will play for a while, just not long term), and will be constantly losing the tail end of gamers that aren't casual, yet aren't that competitive segment.

If they don't have a solid chunk of that competitive set, who do they have?

Ok, so with your experience it doesn't seem to matter either since competitive players are just going to leave for the next competitive game.

If competitive tools are so important, then don't we need to look at other things for these players to use to be more competitive. Do they need to be able to record sieges? Should they be able to view the full build of other players (abilities, stats, gear, etc.)?

If i'm understanding your logic, if Ashes doesn't allow players to record and replay sieges then it won't be able to hold competitive players.

Noaani

mcstackerson wrote: »

Ok, so with your experience it doesn't seem to matter either since competitive players are just going to leave for the next competitive game.

Eventually, yes.

However, that is usually after between 5 and 10 years in a given game.

Being able to record and replay sieges is likely not going to be that important. If it is important - if there is data that it can show that can make the difference between winning and losing the next siege - then yes.

However, I don't see that happening, so no.

mcstackerson

Noaani wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Ok, so with your experience it doesn't seem to matter either since competitive players are just going to leave for the next competitive game.

Eventually, yes.

However, that is usually after between 5 and 10 years in a given game.

Being able to record and replay sieges is likely not going to be that important. If it is important - if there is data that it can show that can make the difference between winning and losing the next siege - then yes.

However, I don't see that happening, so no.

Knowing everything that happened in a siege or any game event, is way more important than knowing players dps. It tells you exactly what happened. You can see who fucked up, missed opportunities, who got the short end of the stick, etc. I'm sure you could imagine how recording a pve encounter could help you sort through any issues that occurred during it.

With your logic, we need this or we can't keep the competitive players.

Noaani

mcstackerson wrote: »

It tells you exactly what happened. You can see who fucked up, missed opportunities, who got the short end of the stick, etc.

A combat tracker will tell you all of that.

mcstackerson

Noaani wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

It tells you exactly what happened. You can see who fucked up, missed opportunities, who got the short end of the stick, etc.

A combat tracker will tell you all of that.

Seeing it is a lot easier than reading through a log and trying to understand why everything happened. You are the one that claims that these convinces are needed for the game to be competitive and successful.

Noaani

mcstackerson wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

It tells you exactly what happened. You can see who fucked up, missed opportunities, who got the short end of the stick, etc.

A combat tracker will tell you all of that.

Seeing it is a lot easier than reading through a log and trying to understand why everything happened. You are the one that claims that these convinces are needed for the game to be competitive and successful.

I never claimed there is a need to replay sieges, you claimed that I must think that.

You are taking what I have said, and dialing it up several notches.

mcstackerson

Noaani wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

It tells you exactly what happened. You can see who fucked up, missed opportunities, who got the short end of the stick, etc.

A combat tracker will tell you all of that.

Seeing it is a lot easier than reading through a log and trying to understand why everything happened. You are the one that claims that these convinces are needed for the game to be competitive and successful.

I never claimed there is a need to replay sieges, you claimed that I must think that.

You are taking what I have said, and dialing it up several notches.

Yes i am.

You have made the claim that people need these tools to be competitive. I have proposed a new tool, one that is similar to an example you gave from another game, that would be helpful for competitive play. If you have ever been competitive, you know rewatching your games to see what you did wrong and how you can improve is a common practice.

If you are going to make the claim that players need tools to be competitive and without these tools, the competitive scene will die, then you should also think the game will die without this tool.

Noaani

mcstackerson wrote: »

You have made the claim that people need these tools to be competitive.

No I haven't.

Happymeal2415

Can't you just use the tools the game gives you.. you know. The health bar and the numbers flying by?

Voxtrium

We should have a DPS meter because

A DPS meter can give the option for players to use meta strategies which in turn overtime will help the development team balance the game to allow for more diverse sets, instead of having internal reports generate what might be overpowered let the (hopefully) millions of AOC players figure it out show you and help you determine what level or nerf of buff something needs.

A DPS meter is also useful for hardcore guilds where the focus is PVP. It'll allow players to figure out how much damage/healing/shielding/buffed damage they did among other things. Over time general numbers will help guide the community on where they should be for their character. Nobody is going to kick a cleric for not out damaging a mage and if they do there is no chance their guild or team will stick together or be successful.

The DPS meter should be created for individual players to use but is allowed to be shared through a message system to someone they are in the party or guild with after the dungeon/boss or combat has ended. This allows players to groom themselves if they so wish, it also allows guilds to declare their intent in terms of player requirements easily. A guild asking for DPS is likely looking for a hardcore or semi hardcore group and needs performance, on the other hand a guild not asking for players to share DPS stats is likely less focused on that PVP aspect and the this gives the player a clear distinction and allows them to choose.

TL:DR

Yes to DPS meters, make them on for individual players and sharable to guild members and through Dms. It'll help find balance issues quickly and help players know what they are getting into when joining a guild

mcstackerson

Noaani wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

You have made the claim that people need these tools to be competitive.

No I haven't.

Ok, i'm sorry if i'm miss understanding you but it sounds like that is what you are saying here.

Noaani wrote: »

If your definition is that the game attracts people to it that want a competitive top end scene (my definition of a competitive game), then yes, you need those tools.

As i said in the comment you were responding to. I was initially responding to someone who said that if the game doesn't have dps meters, it can't be competitive and i disagreed with that.

So what are we arguing?

Noaani

mcstackerson wrote: »

So what are we arguing?

I never said that people will need a combat tracker to be competitive, I have, however, said many times in this thread that competitive people will not come to Ashes if there is not official support for one.

I now people in a few hundred "top end" guilds in various games. Playing in at the top end for over a decade and a half will do that for you. Basically, they are all just guilds that consider raiding (or their games version of it) to be their primary content focus.

Virtually none of these guilds are even considering Ashes right now. The game is not showing any signs that it will support the MMO content type that these guilds prefer, so why would they?

That accounts for likely tens of thousands of MMO players, just in the guilds I have a direct connection with.

Now to address your point about a tool to rewatch a siege, and why your ridiculousness there is indeed ridiculous.

It basically boils down to the fact that a combat tracker is better for an MMO, even if it is near worthless for a BR. BR's are not stat heavy, MMO's are. In a BR, you can't really do all that much to alter the ability of your character all that far from it's base, in an MMO that is basically what the game is about.

The only thing that a tool like that would tell me in an MMO that a combat tracker does not, is where the enemies that we did not see are - and that is information that I do not believe we should have, we should need to find them ourselves in order to know where they are.

Literally everything else you can learn from that tool you can also learn just as easily with a combat tracker.

mcstackerson

Noaani wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

So what are we arguing?

I never said that people will need a combat tracker to be competitive, I have, however, said many times in this thread that competitive people will not come to Ashes if there is not official support for one.

I now people in a few hundred "top end" guilds in various games. Playing in at the top end for over a decade and a half will do that for you. Basically, they are all just guilds that consider raiding (or their games version of it) to be their primary content focus.

Virtually none of these guilds are even considering Ashes right now. The game is not showing any signs that it will support the MMO content type that these guilds prefer, so why would they?

That accounts for likely tens of thousands of MMO players, just in the guilds I have a direct connection with.

Now to address your point about a tool to rewatch a siege, and why your ridiculousness there is indeed ridiculous.

It basically boils down to the fact that a combat tracker is better for an MMO, even if it is near worthless for a BR. BR's are not stat heavy, MMO's are. In a BR, you can't really do all that much to alter the ability of your character all that far from it's base, in an MMO that is basically what the game is about.

The only thing that a tool like that would tell me in an MMO that a combat tracker does not, is where the enemies that we did not see are - and that is information that I do not believe we should have, we should need to find them ourselves in order to know where they are.

Literally everything else you can learn from that tool you can also learn just as easily with a combat tracker.

Yes, it sounds like the ""issue" is the game doesn't support the kind of gameplay they are looking for. I don't think a combat tracker changes that.

There isn't official support for combat trackers in FF14 but that game seems to be doing fine. Being caught using one can even get you banned.

Just curious, can you give me a list of at least 100 of those "top end" guilds?

A recording also lets you see everything that your players are doing, not just what is logged in the tracker. You know exactly why something happened because you saw it. Text doesn't show everything which is why it gives you a clearer picture than a combat tracker. There is some overlap in information but it's a lot easier to see what happened in a recording. Since it's easier to see what happened, it's more convenient.

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