Protecting Our Casuals: Gear

One big concern I have for AoC is that gear will end up providing too much power. AoC is already a game that will greatly reward those who play a lot which is why I believe that it is imperative for gear to only account for at most 20-30% of a character's power.

People will enjoy grinding out their gear even if each piece gives small increments of power increase. These small increments of power increase will allow the bulk of the population to not feel like they are so out geared that they cannot even come close to competing. This is very important because when those casual players will die over and over to a hardcore player that severely outgears them without any chance of fighting back, they will be very likely to just quit. Hardcore players will have other advantages (gold, skill, etc.) anyway because they play a lot more and there is no reason to further widen the gap between casual and hardcore players.

Please understand that I am not against rewarding those who invest more time into the game. I am just suggesting that their reward should not create such a great disparity between them and casual players. I truly believe that this can greatly help the health of the game and its population.

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Azherae

VmanGman wrote: »

@Azherae where did you get the idea that it would be harder to continue adding attack to further slots or that slots even exist as you described them in the crafting system? I’ve just never seen this described by Intrepid so I’m curious.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Enchanting

I am not saying there's perfect equivalence between what I said and what this page discusses, but it would require all the same underlying aspects, so my point is that if they have a certain level of design skill, you can expect things like this to exist.

There were also indicators that it isn't just the Enchanting craft that does this, but, for example, a WeaponSmith might be able to have some of these effects on the sword they are making during the creation process or similar.

Don't take everything said as 'exactly what they say' because they're usually trying to describe, in a few words, a system that has taken months to develop and has dozens of pages of design documents and considerations. I'm not saying to make assumptions either, but still, it's usually better to assume something will be done properly than that it will be done badly.

If you don't understand 'how it can be done properly', then sure, topics like these help everyone including Intrepid.

VmanGman

@Noaani You seem to be a special breed of hardcore player who seems to not bother with fighting casuals. However, the way AoC is designed casuals will have to fight hardcore players over various points of interest: resources, caravans, dungeons etc. and more often than not in MMORPGs hardcore players play with other hardcore players because they want the best outcome for their group and huge gear disparities further encourage this behavior.

Edit: word

VmanGman

Azherae wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

@Azherae where did you get the idea that it would be harder to continue adding attack to further slots or that slots even exist as you described them in the crafting system? I’ve just never seen this described by Intrepid so I’m curious.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Enchanting

I am not saying there's perfect equivalence between what I said and what this page discusses, but it would require all the same underlying aspects, so my point is that if they have a certain level of design skill, you can expect things like this to exist.

There were also indicators that it isn't just the Enchanting craft that does this, but, for example, a WeaponSmith might be able to have some of these effects on the sword they are making during the creation process or similar.

Don't take everything said as 'exactly what they say' because they're usually trying to describe, in a few words, a system that has taken months to develop and has dozens of pages of design documents and considerations. I'm not saying to make assumptions either, but still, it's usually better to assume something will be done properly than that it will be done badly.

If you don't understand 'how it can be done properly', then sure, topics like these help everyone including Intrepid.

Are we sure that Intrepid knows how to do it properly? We’re not. Like you said, I’m just bringing forward concerns and conversations because the game is still in development and it has not been made clear that the developers have addressed possible issues.

Dygz

If the devs don't know how to balance gear properly, they won't learn anything from this thread.
They especially won't learn anything new after Page 5.

Noaani

VmanGman wrote: »

Noaani You seem to be a special breed of hardcore player who seems to not bother with fighting casuals. However, the way AoC is designed casuals will have to fight hardcore players over various points of interest: resources, caravans, dungeons etc. and more often than not in MMORPGs hardcore players play with other hardcore players because they want the best outcome for their group and huge gear disparities further encourage this behavior.

Edit: word

It's just logic.

Imagine you are out harvesting iron ore. Iron ore is needed across all tiers of gear, the higher your gear, the more you need.

However, top end gear also needs materials that drop from group and/or raid mobs.

Since iron ore is essentially limitless (the resource scarcity notion can't really apply to basic resources like iron), it's value will be both nearly fixed and low. However, the value of the dropped items is high. If you were to buy the materials for an item as per what I am describing (essentially Archeage crafting), 95% of the cost of it would be the dropped materials.

Now, why on earth would I risk my shot at getting that 95% of the cost of my new item, in order to get a portion of that 5% for free?

Now, while the numbers above are not necessarily going to hold true in Ashes, the concept absolutely will.

While many players may not enter the game with this mindset, as soon as they lose that dropped component due to having corruption that was gained to get a mediocre amount of iron ore, most will quickly see the error in their ways.

VmanGman

Dygz wrote: »

If the devs don't know how to balance gear properly, they won't learn anything from this thread.
They especially won't learn anything new after Page 5.

Considering that there are games out there that don’t understand the effects of severe gear power differences, we cannot assume that Intrepid knows any better.
They can definitely gain insight from the conversation being had. Not too much from your and Caww’s suggestion for casuals to just sit and take a beating (hahahaha), but there is insight to be gained from everyone else.

Are you the forums police or what’s up with you coming here to tell us that everything was resolved early on in this thread and that we should stop discussing. Especially when early on in this thread you said that casuals should just sit and take a beating as if that’s ever acceptable game design hahaha.

VmanGman

Noaani wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

Noaani You seem to be a special breed of hardcore player who seems to not bother with fighting casuals. However, the way AoC is designed casuals will have to fight hardcore players over various points of interest: resources, caravans, dungeons etc. and more often than not in MMORPGs hardcore players play with other hardcore players because they want the best outcome for their group and huge gear disparities further encourage this behavior.

Edit: word

It's just logic.

Imagine you are out harvesting iron ore. Iron ore is needed across all tiers of gear, the higher your gear, the more you need.

However, top end gear also needs materials that drop from group and/or raid mobs.

Since iron ore is essentially limitless (the resource scarcity notion can't really apply to basic resources like iron), it's value will be both nearly fixed and low. However, the value of the dropped items is high. If you were to buy the materials for an item as per what I am describing (essentially Archeage crafting), 95% of the cost of it would be the dropped materials.

Now, why on earth would I risk my shot at getting that 95% of the cost of my new item, in order to get a portion of that 5% for free?

Now, while the numbers above are not necessarily going to hold true in Ashes, the concept absolutely will.

While many players may not enter the game with this mindset, as soon as they lose that dropped component due to having corruption that was gained to get a mediocre amount of iron ore, most will quickly see the error in their ways.

1. Why are you assuming that casuals can only get their hands on basic materials?
2. What will happen when a dungeon is contested by a group of casuals?
3. What will happen when casuals run a caravan?

Dygz

VmanGman wrote: »

Considering that there are games out there that don’t understand the effects of severe gear power differences, we cannot assume that Intrepid knows any better.

This thread won't shed any new light. Especially not after Page 5.

Noaani

VmanGman wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

Noaani You seem to be a special breed of hardcore player who seems to not bother with fighting casuals. However, the way AoC is designed casuals will have to fight hardcore players over various points of interest: resources, caravans, dungeons etc. and more often than not in MMORPGs hardcore players play with other hardcore players because they want the best outcome for their group and huge gear disparities further encourage this behavior.

Edit: word

It's just logic.

Imagine you are out harvesting iron ore. Iron ore is needed across all tiers of gear, the higher your gear, the more you need.

However, top end gear also needs materials that drop from group and/or raid mobs.

Since iron ore is essentially limitless (the resource scarcity notion can't really apply to basic resources like iron), it's value will be both nearly fixed and low. However, the value of the dropped items is high. If you were to buy the materials for an item as per what I am describing (essentially Archeage crafting), 95% of the cost of it would be the dropped materials.

Now, why on earth would I risk my shot at getting that 95% of the cost of my new item, in order to get a portion of that 5% for free?

Now, while the numbers above are not necessarily going to hold true in Ashes, the concept absolutely will.

While many players may not enter the game with this mindset, as soon as they lose that dropped component due to having corruption that was gained to get a mediocre amount of iron ore, most will quickly see the error in their ways.

1. Why are you assuming that casuals can only get their hands on basic materials?
2. What will happen when a dungeon is contested by a group of casuals?
3. What will happen when casuals run a caravan?

1, I'm not, but if I see someone with basic equipment, I am not going to attack them in the hopes they have rare resources. Why would I?

Even then, anything a casual player can get, a hardcore gamer has already obtained.

2, if you are casual and expect to contest something against non-casual players, expect to lose.

That said, casual players should not be contesting the same content as top end players. Casuals will be on lower tiers, top end will be on top end tiers. Top end players would have already been through the lower tiers and taken all they need before the casuals get to it.

This is why tiers are important. There should be no need to contest content more than one or two tiers below where you are focusing, which means only people with around the same quality of gear will be concerning themselves with any specific piece of content. The fewer tiers, the greater the scope of players going after any one piece of content.

3, the same as with literally every other person in the game, they will get others to help.

Running caravans is not going to be a solo activity for anyone.

VmanGman

Dygz wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

Considering that there are games out there that don’t understand the effects of severe gear power differences, we cannot assume that Intrepid knows any better.

This thread won't shed any new light. Especially not after Page 5.

Especially not after your suggestion. Thank you for your input forum’s police.

Vaknar

Azherae wrote: »

Vaknar wrote: »

As for PvP, while a casual player might not always win a 1v1 against a player who has more time to dedicate, there is always strength in numbers and teamwork

Hm, so are you saying that a casual player will not win 1v1s, but a group of casual players might be able to win an 8v8 vs a group of 'time-advantaged' players?

No, not at all!

I'm just pointing out that there will be many avenues for success and fun that casual players can find themselves adventuring down ^_^

VmanGman

Noaani wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

Noaani You seem to be a special breed of hardcore player who seems to not bother with fighting casuals. However, the way AoC is designed casuals will have to fight hardcore players over various points of interest: resources, caravans, dungeons etc. and more often than not in MMORPGs hardcore players play with other hardcore players because they want the best outcome for their group and huge gear disparities further encourage this behavior.

Edit: word

It's just logic.

Imagine you are out harvesting iron ore. Iron ore is needed across all tiers of gear, the higher your gear, the more you need.

However, top end gear also needs materials that drop from group and/or raid mobs.

Since iron ore is essentially limitless (the resource scarcity notion can't really apply to basic resources like iron), it's value will be both nearly fixed and low. However, the value of the dropped items is high. If you were to buy the materials for an item as per what I am describing (essentially Archeage crafting), 95% of the cost of it would be the dropped materials.

Now, why on earth would I risk my shot at getting that 95% of the cost of my new item, in order to get a portion of that 5% for free?

Now, while the numbers above are not necessarily going to hold true in Ashes, the concept absolutely will.

While many players may not enter the game with this mindset, as soon as they lose that dropped component due to having corruption that was gained to get a mediocre amount of iron ore, most will quickly see the error in their ways.

1. Why are you assuming that casuals can only get their hands on basic materials?
2. What will happen when a dungeon is contested by a group of casuals?
3. What will happen when casuals run a caravan?

1, I'm not, but if I see someone with basic equipment, I am not going to attack them in the hopes they have rare resources. Why would I?

Even then, anything a casual player can get, a hardcore gamer has already obtained.

2, if you are casual and expect to contest something against non-casual players, expect to lose.

That said, casual players should not be contesting the same content as top end players. Casuals will be on lower tiers, top end will be on top end tiers. Top end players would have already been through the lower tiers and taken all they need before the casuals get to it.

This is why tiers are important. There should be no need to contest content more than one or two tiers below where you are focusing, which means only people with around the same quality of gear will be concerning themselves with any specific piece of content. The fewer tiers, the greater the scope of players going after any one piece of content.

3, the same as with literally every other person in the game, they will get others to help.

Running caravans is not going to be a solo activity for anyone.

1. Once again, I think you’re a rare breed of MMO player.
2. Earlier you suggested that tiers would not make players feel like their progress is obsolete and that they wouldn’t be disillusioned eventually after enough patches/expansions have passed. However, now you’re claiming that hardcore players will be grinding entirely different content from casual players. If previous content is not obsolete why would hardcore players not grind it anymore?
3. I never said that running caravans is a solo thing. I just said that hardcore players will most likely want to run their caravans with other hardcore players (for higher success rate) and since they’ve already run their caravans they will be much less incentivized to run caravans with casual players.

Noaani

VmanGman wrote: »

2. Earlier you suggested that tiers would not make players feel like their progress is obsolete and that they wouldn’t be disillusioned eventually after enough patches/expansions have passed. However, now you’re claiming that hardcore players will be grinding entirely different content from casual players. If previous content is not obsolete why would hardcore players not grind it anymore?

I never said content and gear won't become obsolete, I said players won't become disillusioned with it.

People don't get pissed off when they have to replace an item. Quite the opposite, in fact. That is kind of the point of the game. Same with gearing up enough to make content obsolete - it is a great feeling when you just breeze past something that had previously given you a world of hurt.

People get pissed off when they spend months raiding to get gear and then a patch later that gear is replaced by solo quest gear. This is what WoW did many times over.

If new content sees raid gear only replaced by raid gear, group gear replaced by group gear and solo gear replaced by solo gear, everyone is happy.

5. I never said that running caravans is a solo thing. I just said that hardcore players will most likely want to run their caravans with other hardcore players (for higher success rate) and since they’ve already run their caravans they will be much less incentivized to run caravans with casual players.

This may well be true, but I fail to see the issue.

Like everyone else, that casual player needs to organize something to suit them.

CROW3

Noaani wrote: »

People get pissed off when they spend months raiding to get gear and then a patch later that gear is replaced by solo quest gear. This is what WoW did many times over.

Yeah… welfare epics replacing the previous top-end gear that had been meticulously optimized is frustrating as hell.

I’d just stagger the gear progression so the previous top-end tier is only starts being rivaled by Tier I of the next expansion.

VmanGman

@Noaani You and I just have vastly different understandings to what is good and healthy game design for a MMO. I hope AoC succeeds.

Noaani

CROW3 wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

People get pissed off when they spend months raiding to get gear and then a patch later that gear is replaced by solo quest gear. This is what WoW did many times over.

Yeah… welfare epics replacing the previous top-end gear that had been meticulously optimized is frustrating as hell.

I’d just stagger the gear progression so the previous top-end tier is only starts being rivaled by Tier I of the next expansion.

I have a sort of different approach as to how I would do things (I assume no one is surprised by this).

I would make a game with 15 distinct tiers. The first four would be solo, the next two would be solo and group (if you are good, you can solo it). The next three are group, the next two are group and raid, and the last four are raid.

Then, when a new content cycle hits, simply retune each tier down three steps in terms of the content, but leave the rewards the same. This would mean tier 7 that is originally the first tier of outright group content would then be the last tier of outright solo content, but still drops the exact same items. Then you simply add three tiers to the top.

This will result in a small number of people complaining, but it offers a number of benefits.

The first is that all people that play the game can be assured that eventually, they will be able to see all of the content. There is also the benefit of people being able to go back to past content with ease, should there be reason to do so.

Dygz

VmanGman wrote: »

Thank you for your input forum’s police.

You're welcome. I'm not policing; just pointing out that your questions become repetitive and redundant at least by Page 5.

VmanGman

Dygz wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

Thank you for your input forum’s police.

You're welcome. I'm not policing; just pointing out that your questions become repetitive and redundant at least by Page 5.

You coming here to say that the conversation is redundant when people are clearly still talking is exactly what policing means. Yes, it might have not been the most fruitful conversation after a while, but we were still talking and your comment is 100% pointless. I guess thanks for letting us know? It’s a free forum, you coming to tell us that the conversation was over on page 5 is exactly what policing looks like. Stop it. It’s ridiculous when you deny such obvious things.

And let’s not forget that you came in saying that you addressed Vaknar’s point on page 1 when on page 1 you had said that casuals need to just sit there and take a beating because they know they can’t win… hahaha amazing game design!

Happymeal2415

Dygz wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

Thank you for your input forum’s police.

You're welcome. I'm not policing; just pointing out that your questions become repetitive and redundant at least by Page 5.

There's no hope dygz... he has to be trolling. And it's redundant by page 1.

VmanGman

Happymeal2415 wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

Thank you for your input forum’s police.

You're welcome. I'm not policing; just pointing out that your questions become repetitive and redundant at least by Page 5.

There's no hope dygz... he has to be trolling. And it's redundant by page 1.

After 12 pages of conversation you suggest that I said the following: “You seem to be dead set on having every scenario end in casuals winning. Apparently whoever plays the least and plays solo should get the best gear or no one will play this game’”. When in fact I never said anything close to it. It’s clearly not redundant if that’s how twisted your understanding is of this topic. And don’t make me keep reminding you that Dygz suggested that it would be good game design for casuals to just sit there and take a beating because they know they can’t win… I cannot be redundant or trolling when you two make such troll comments.

Edit: word

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