Why not offer 2v2 Arenas?

Currently it seems only 1v1, 3v3 and 5v5 arenas are planned. How come 2v2 is overlooked? Playing a game togheter with only 1 friend is extremely common and I don't see why 2v2 should not be offered at all. I mean, in many other games 2v2 is immensely more popular than 5v5 and 1v1. Many players even prefer to focus on it!

I love 3v3 but sometimes just chilling with a single friend doing 2v2 is very fun and laid back. It has a slower pace than 3v3 while still offering you to play with a friend. When I feel like just playing for fun and start playing quickly with a friend 2v2 is the best way to do that. It is convenient. finding a third player is sometimes a hassle.

Also 2v2 opens up the option for viable non healer combos. In 2v2, you can usually pair anything you want and don't be heavily handicapped for not bringing a healer/support. This helps simply jumping in to games with strangers and friends without worrying all that much about combos.

Why not just offer 2v2 in combination with the other sizes? I believe you should offer it and don't see a reason why not.

Also, do we even need 1v1 arenas, when dueling is a thing? If you want them, do not make these rated, it is stupid. Please, do not have a single piece of content or achivement connected to 1v1. It will backlash like hell.

What do you think?

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Pyrolol

Pyrolol wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Pyrolol wrote: »

JamesSunderland wrote: »

I find you adorable aswell mister WoW arena player.
Point still stands
1v1 is confirmed and 2v2 isn't.

Anything can change, they might add it
Might not
Guess we will find out on game day after how long this game takes to come out

I mean, if your arguments are anything to go by, all it has done is galvanized Intrepids intent with the options they have.

if you want to affect change, you need to put up a good argument - you have not. Your argument bassically boils down to "but I prefer 2v2 to 1v1".

2v2 will be more enjoyable then 1v1 because you will have someone along side you to fight with, whether it be a random, friend, sibling or whatever. This opens up an opportunity to create strategies when versing teams.

having a second gives you the opportunity to chain up big dps moves, cc abilities and have an advantage to your team with the use of communication and coordination

Far more rewarding then going in solo and hoping for the best with just kiting or zerging and praying etc

Secondly, how will healers cope in a 1v1? In 2v2 they will be top pick as the most common was healer/dps however, with the option of a 2v2 it gives the double dps a chance to compete and get just as high as the healer/dps comps you verse especially higher elo, it also creates shorter games compared.

As OP stated, most commonly you play games with a friend, and sometimes waiting for that 3rd player to log on can take up a bit of time so having 2v2 to warm up and practice synergizing with

Rated 1v1 would only be fun for a handful of specs, 2v2 atleast gives every class a chance to compete together in this bracket

How was that?

Literally wrote it all out

EDIT: Not at all saying it will be the best
3v3 will always reign champ as it just works

All I’m saying is it will aspire more players to roll healers as every mmo always has a massive influx of dps, so with the inclusion of a 2v2 arena it will hopefully make more versatile arena compositions

Also, even if its not added so be it. Happy there’s arena in this game tbh made me jump on the Ashes train hardcore

meedx

Marzzo wrote: »

meedx wrote: »

I don't see why you'd advocate for removing 1v1 rather than just adding 2v2.

Ashes main content and design is central to the open world, balance is going to be focused on
group play and 3v3 is the minimum you can call "group play", even that is a stretch and some would say it's 5v5.

But due to that, 2v2 would/will only ever come down to a few select comps of meta classes without the
annual/tri monthly balance updates like you see in wow to shake things up, 3v3 will have an easier time having natural flow between comps and class switch ups between the "meta" because of the choices and ability to change secondary archetype.

Maybe they could have per game mode skill balancing/changes and a dev to oversee balance and changes but since arena is an activity that is secondary to world content/pvp, idk.

wow is fairly unique in its stale cooldown trading arena style, not all arena games are like that and shouldn't aspire to be, its giga flawed as most people see every season

Because 1v1 arenas should be reserved for military node minigames. It's more fun. More engaging, and more interesting.

But that's just your opinion?

I wouldn't find it more fun and I'd argue that's less engaging as it has another gearing route necessary to sign up, as well as a military node being available, I also wouldn't find it more fun to only be able to find good players to 1v1 via a minigame in a node that doesn't even utilize my own character and has a separate "balanced" system that I have to gear up separately from my own character.

One of the games Steven is taking influence from is Archeage which had 1v1's with a ladder/points system, no one had an issue with it being in the game alongside the 3v3 arena because they were secondary game modes to the main content which was open world pvp/world bosses and gvg's.

It also had an "unbalanced" and balanced arena and the balanced arena was FAR worse, you had no fine tuning of your character and it was very rock paper scissors, it also had no group queueing which I'm sure you're picturing when you think of arena, aka wow arena, so that aspect was also a coin toss on the ability of your random partners.

I'm not against you in your opinion that competitive arena's would be a good addition to the game but your view is really narrow minded in what you want it to be, wow is not the pinnacle of the arena game mode.

Noaani

Pyrolol wrote: »

All I’m saying is it will aspire more players to roll healers as every mmo always has a massive influx of dps

Not all MMO's have an excess of DPS. This is mostly a function of the games group size, the smaller the size of a group, the more healers (and tanks) are needed.

In a game like WoW, with 5 players per group, you need a tank and healer for every 3 DPS.

In a game like Ashes, with 8 players per group, you need a tank and a healer per 6 DPS.

Also, the notion that more than a dozen people across all servers would roll characters in a game like Ashes specifically for the arena is laughable.

As to the part where you quoted yourself, I already went over that.

Nothing you are saying a 2v2 arena would add to the game (arena with communication and cooperation) is missing. It exists in other arena types.

You then saying that a 2v2 arena allows for different group configurations is literally the definition of you preferring it - making that argument simply a case of "but I prefer 2v2 to 1v1". In this case, it is because you prefer the class combinations that a 2v2 allows for that a 3v3 doesn't.

1v1 arena in Ashes will be the most common in terms of matches played, and there is nothing at all to be gained by dropping that 1v1 arena and adding a 2v2 arena that isn't already available in a 3v3 arena.

tautau

Perhaps it will be possible to join the 3v3 arena with two players if the 'Go' button can be clicked with two players. If you have a 2v3 and win, glory to you! But if you and another 2-person team coordinate to click at the same time, you have your 2v2 match.

Certainly, waiting until three people are in the group is the normal way to program the competition, but if IS made pushing the 'Go' button start the match, regardless of team size, it could be interesting. If there were a certain amount of PvP points for a three-person win, they could be divided between two. If you went into an 8-person match with a 5-person team and won, you would each get more points and certainly could brag about it.

Pyrolol

Noaani wrote: »

Pyrolol wrote: »

All I’m saying is it will aspire more players to roll healers as every mmo always has a massive influx of dps

Not all MMO's have an excess of DPS. This is mostly a function of the games group size, the smaller the size of a group, the more healers (and tanks) are needed.

In a game like WoW, with 5 players per group, you need a tank and healer for every 3 DPS.

In a game like Ashes, with 8 players per group, you need a tank and a healer per 6 DPS.

Also, the notion that more than a dozen people across all servers would roll characters in a game like Ashes specifically for the arena is laughable.

As to the part where you quoted yourself, I already went over that.

Nothing you are saying a 2v2 arena would add to the game (arena with communication and cooperation) is missing. It exists in other arena types.

You then saying that a 2v2 arena allows for different group configurations is literally the definition of you preferring it - making that argument simply a case of "but I prefer 2v2 to 1v1". In this case, it is because you prefer the class combinations that a 2v2 allows for that a 3v3 doesn't.

1v1 arena in Ashes will be the most common in terms of matches played, and there is nothing at all to be gained by dropping that 1v1 arena and adding a 2v2 arena that isn't already available in a 3v3 arena.

For someone who has no interest in competitive arena, you sure do have a lot of opinions

Noaani

Pyrolol wrote: »

For someone who has no interest in competitive arena, you sure do have a lot of opinions

The bubble that people put themselves in to sometimes is really amazing.

Arenas are the lowest end of PvP content in Ashes.

Spurius

Nice bubble you've put yourself in there, Pyrolol. The bubble of people... who think that Noaani... has a lot of opinions...
Wait, what?

Pyrolol

Noaani wrote: »

Pyrolol wrote: »

For someone who has no interest in competitive arena, you sure do have a lot of opinions

The bubble that people put themselves in to sometimes is really amazing.

Arenas are the lowest end of PvP content in Ashes.

Only asked numerous times, than why even be here on this thread that’s literally about arena 😂
World PvP can only so much before it gets stale and boring tbh

Pyrolol

Vaknar wrote: »

If you were in a 2v2, what classes/archetypes would your ideal 2v2 team consist of?

From my experience from arena since '07

Some top comps I could see being viable
And also curious about would be

Healer & DPS

Cleric / Fighter
Bard / Summoner
Bard / Ranger
Cleric / Rogue
Cleric / Mage
Bard / Fighter
Cleric / Ranger

Some double DPS

Mage / Rogue
Ranger / Summoner
Fighter / Tank
Rogue / Summoner
Ranger / Fighter
Mage / Summoner
Fighter / Summoner

This is based just off the 1st Archetypes

Noaani

Spurius wrote: »

Nice bubble you've put yourself in there, Pyrolol. The bubble of people... who think that Noaani... has a lot of opinions...
Wait, what?

For someone that allegedly has a lot of opinions, I sure do post in comparatively few threads.

Pyrolol wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Pyrolol wrote: »

For someone who has no interest in competitive arena, you sure do have a lot of opinions

The bubble that people put themselves in to sometimes is really amazing.

Arenas are the lowest end of PvP content in Ashes.

Only asked numerous times, than why even be here on this thread that’s literally about arena 😂
World PvP can only so much before it gets stale and boring tbh

If you can't convince me - someone with no real skin in the game either way - how well do you think you are doing at convincing the people that already made the decision for 1v1 and 3v3, and DO have some skin in the game?

I mean, are you working on the assumption they didn't know 2v2 existed? Are you assuming that a company spending 9 figures on it's first product isn't actually going to put some thought and research in to their decisions?

Pyrolol

Noaani wrote: »

Spurius wrote: »

Nice bubble you've put yourself in there, Pyrolol. The bubble of people... who think that Noaani... has a lot of opinions...
Wait, what?

For someone that allegedly has a lot of opinions, I sure do post in comparatively few threads.

Pyrolol wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Pyrolol wrote: »

For someone who has no interest in competitive arena, you sure do have a lot of opinions

The bubble that people put themselves in to sometimes is really amazing.

Arenas are the lowest end of PvP content in Ashes.

Only asked numerous times, than why even be here on this thread that’s literally about arena 😂
World PvP can only so much before it gets stale and boring tbh

If you can't convince me - someone with no real skin in the game either way - how well do you think you are doing at convincing the people that already made the decision for 1v1 and 3v3, and DO have some skin in the game?

I mean, are you working on the assumption they didn't know 2v2 existed? Are you assuming that a company spending 9 figures on it's first product isn't actually going to put some thought and research in to their decisions?

Why do you keep bringing up 3v3? 3v3 will be the main focus on regardless
Maybe the devs arnt as completely stubborn as you?
The OP if you go back to the very first suggested instead of 1v1 to replace it with 2v2 opening with some pretty valid points to begin with.

Also, your counter to any solid arguments here is literally the same every time
"ThAt'S JuSt YoUr OpInIoN"

Also, this game will have another alpha, and 2 betas to use to test things out, so opening a 2v2 to trial it out even and compare the difference to 1v1 in game and then make the decision on that before launch
Plenty of things can change in the next year

bloodprophet

I would be ok with them adding 2v2 as long as it doesn't lead to class homogenization like it did for WoW.
How many new players will come in thinking they want to play the arenas competitively only to find out class balance is 8v8 based on the archetype and not 1v1?
How will they feel when they find out there is no gear gained only some cosmetics and augments?
How much whining will be on the forums about how it is not fair that a certain class dominates with their one extra DPS or a class has a skill that is better for the arena and nobody else has it?

I am not overly opposed to arenas as an idea. Only that then it could lead to weakening of the overall class design like we saw with other games that put a high focus on them.

Noaani

bloodprophet wrote: »

How will they feel when they find out there is no gear gained only some cosmetics and augments?

My hope is that when people realize this, they will realize that the arena is indeed a sideshow, and from there either go to a game where it is not, or play the game proper.

I'm sure you would have no issue believing me that should someone post about a skill being unbalanced in the arena, that I personally won't have any issue pointing out that it's just the arena and no one cares - and that they should get out in to the actual game.

Noaani

Pyrolol wrote: »

Why do you keep bringing up 3v3?

As I have said at least 4 times in this thread now, because the only difference between 2v2 and 3v3 is the class combinations.

If you want to argue that 2vw adds cooperation and communicating, as you have, you need to give me a reason why this matters when those things are available in 3v3 arenas.

Literally the difference between 2v2 and 3v3 are class combinations. 1v1 is a totally different thing, hence why it will not only be in the game, it will be by far the most popular arena in terms of matches.

Pyrolol

Noaani wrote: »

Pyrolol wrote: »

Why do you keep bringing up 3v3?

As I have said at least 4 times in this thread now, because the only difference between 2v2 and 3v3 is the class combinations.

If you want to argue that 2vw adds cooperation and communicating, as you have, you need to give me a reason why this matters when those things are available in 3v3 arenas.

Literally the difference between 2v2 and 3v3 are class combinations. 1v1 is a totally different thing, hence why it will not only be in the game, it will be by far the most popular arena in terms of matches.

3v3 will be the most competitive since in the 1v1 bracket only certain classes and specs will be meta so i still don’t see how this would be the most popular, at least in 2v2 more classes will be able to compete and regardless if 2v2 is added or not 3v3 will be the most intense regardless of your uneducated inputs

2v2 would have been viable for all dps teams which would have made it much more popular than 1v1 like stated before

And you have no idea how much thats a game changer which is dps v dps since you said it yourself you don’t even do arena and there’s no point even explaining it all once again since you simply wouldn’t get it

Still don’t see why you can’t play all the aspects of the game as well as compete in the arena
It wouldn’t hurt Ashes to even put in 2v2 as a temp trial during any one of the future betas coming out to see how it weighs against 1v1

And once again i will say, I don’t really care if its not added as 3v3 will be the main focus.
It’s just a fun bracket to have in the game

Noaani

Pyrolol wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Pyrolol wrote: »

Why do you keep bringing up 3v3?

As I have said at least 4 times in this thread now, because the only difference between 2v2 and 3v3 is the class combinations.

If you want to argue that 2vw adds cooperation and communicating, as you have, you need to give me a reason why this matters when those things are available in 3v3 arenas.

Literally the difference between 2v2 and 3v3 are class combinations. 1v1 is a totally different thing, hence why it will not only be in the game, it will be by far the most popular arena in terms of matches.

3v3 will be the most competitive since in the 1v1 bracket only certain classes and specs will be meta so i still don’t see how this would be the most popular

Simple, Ashes arena will be more of a casual time filler, rather than something competitive.

6 months after launch, there will be less than 20 players across all servers that consider the arena their primary gameplay type. There will also be some people that consider it a secondary part of their game, yet still care about it - but this would only amount to a few hundred at the most. Since there are no arena exclusive rewards, there is no real point to focusing on it.

People will still use the arena as a time waster, but the best way to waste time in the arena is 1v1.

Pyrolol

Noaani wrote: »

Pyrolol wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Pyrolol wrote: »

Why do you keep bringing up 3v3?

As I have said at least 4 times in this thread now, because the only difference between 2v2 and 3v3 is the class combinations.

If you want to argue that 2vw adds cooperation and communicating, as you have, you need to give me a reason why this matters when those things are available in 3v3 arenas.

Literally the difference between 2v2 and 3v3 are class combinations. 1v1 is a totally different thing, hence why it will not only be in the game, it will be by far the most popular arena in terms of matches.

3v3 will be the most competitive since in the 1v1 bracket only certain classes and specs will be meta so i still don’t see how this would be the most popular

Simple, Ashes arena will be more of a casual time filler, rather than something competitive.

6 months after launch, there will be less than 20 players across all servers that consider the arena their primary gameplay type. There will also be some people that consider it a secondary part of their game, yet still care about it - but this would only amount to a few hundred at the most. Since there are no arena exclusive rewards, there is no real point to focusing on it.

People will still use the arena as a time waster, but the best way to waste time in the arena is 1v1.

Games not even out yet, arena is an end game content type mode so I don’t see how it could possibly get a chance to be popular until players start reaching max level

Also,
“There will be an arena ladder system.[2][4]
Rewards for arena ladders will be revealed at a later time.[6]
Titles can be received from arena play.[7]”

They haven’t even released rewards yet, it will be just like most other games, so after release when most players are max level it will be roughly a few months and they will release the first season and then follow up seasons after that which will then get the players to participate hence why its end game content

^ literally evident in almost every game mmo, fps etc that’s released a ranked competitive mode

WoW, League, Dota, Apex Legends, CS, R6, Valorant, OW, Rocket, BDO, ESO, FF, GW2, Rift, EVE etc

Noaani

Pyrolol wrote: »

They haven’t even released rewards yet

No, but they have said that the rewards from arena matches will basically just be that it contributes to your PvP season score - which rewards temporary augments every few months. They said this about 3 years after saying that the rewards for the arena had not yet been finalized.

Steven has specifically said that he doesn't want to incentivize players to spend all day in instances - PvE or PvP. They want players out in the game world.

The games design will be aimed largely to either discourage or outright prevent players being able to do that for too much of their time.

Now, to be clear, I am not saying that Ashes won't have a popular ranking system. I've never said that.

What I am saying is that this will not be the arena system - it will be the PvP season ranking system- of which the arena is a very small component.

What is likely to happen is that you will have a given number of arena matches that can go towards your over all PvP season ranking, and any more than that only go to your arena only ranking - which offers titles and cosmetics as a reward.

People absolutely will care about their PvP season ranking. Without a doubt.

It's the arena they won't care much at all about.

Pyrolol

Noaani wrote: »

Pyrolol wrote: »

They haven’t even released rewards yet

No, but they have said that the rewards from arena matches will basically just be that it contributes to your PvP season score - which rewards temporary augments every few months. They said this about 3 years after saying that the rewards for the arena had not yet been finalized.

Steven has specifically said that he doesn't want to incentivize players to spend all day in instances - PvE or PvP. They want players out in the game world.

The games design will be aimed largely to either discourage or outright prevent players being able to do that for too much of their time.

Now, to be clear, I am not saying that Ashes won't have a popular ranking system. I've never said that.

What I am saying is that this will not be the arena system - it will be the PvP season ranking system- of which the arena is a very small component.

What is likely to happen is that you will have a given number of arena matches that can go towards your over all PvP season ranking, and any more than that only go to your arena only ranking - which offers titles and cosmetics as a reward.

People absolutely will care about their PvP season ranking. Without a doubt.

It's the arena they won't care much at all about.

So that’s your opinion of what will happen
Mine is
Just like every new games thats come out recently is
Competitive play will come into it later on with big streamers which in turn will make the game more popular
Then tournaments at a very later stage like worlds etc on twitch

So enjoy running around and getting killed in unbalanced, stale open world pvp and leave the arena for the big boys yeah

Noaani

Pyrolol wrote: »

So that’s your opinion of what will happen
Mine is
Just like every new games thats come out recently is
Competitive play will come into it later on with big streamers which in turn will make the game more popular
Then tournaments at a very later stage like worlds etc on twitch

So enjoy running around and getting killed in unbalanced, stale open world pvp and leave the arena for the big boys yeah

Oh, ok, so you basically have no idea at all what this game is about then.

I mean, I knew that a few pages ago, but whatever.

---

This is an open world MMORPG.

There is no desire at all to try and make it an e-sport title, there is no desire at all to try and court streamers once the game is live. In fact, since the game is designed around essentially grind based gameplay, it would be uneconomical for a larger streamer to even consider this game (large streamers stream as content to make money - people generally don't want to watch someone else grind in an MMO).

The only streamers this game will have are smaller scale ones, people that stream for fun rather than for profit. Even then, after the second or third time they lose a siege due to someone on the opposing side watching their stream, they will soon learn to not even bother streaming the worthwhile content in the game.

Your assumption for what this game is going to be is diametrically opposed to what Steven has said he wants the game to be.

Also, "stale" open world PvP is the excuse people have that can't hack it out in the real (online) world. It isn't stale, you just keep losing to people that have no arena rank.

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