Birthday wrote: » Perhaps what we need is not a DPS meter but a contribution score meter which if need be to extract certain info can be divided into it's building blocks. So a contribution score meter would be a meter which calculates your total contribution to the mob killing or raid as a whole by measuring everything you've done. Did you CC a mob which was about to cast a big damage spell? You get 15 contribution points! Did you also top DPS? You get 60 contribution points! Did you hold aggro and soak up a ton of damage? You get 30 contribution points! Were you top 3 dps? You get 25 contribution points! Were you top heal(overhealing not included)? You get 60 contribution points! Did you heal the biggest portion of health(overhealing not included) after a boss's burst spell? You get 25 contribution points! Etc. etc. This way no player value would be lost to the scoreboard inside a raid due to class difference or gear difference. A player might be lacking in gear but he might be a veteran MMO player and contribute to the raid with timely CCs or/and timely heals/buffs(bard buffs) etc. Then this contribution meter could be broken down to it's individual parts (CC meter, DPS meter, Heal meter) etc. so that it can be used for player optimization. But if the community feels strongly against allowing for this kind of tool to exist for player optimization or as some call it perfectionism then the option to break down the contribution meter into it's individual parts and accessing hard numbers instead of just points can be blocked for players and thus we have reached a compromise where there is a scoreboard but at the same time it's not a tool that can be easily used for player optimization. I personally don't mind either way we go with this - no meter at all / contribution meter / or dps meter. It's all fine for me. 1# No meter would mean that creating meta builds and stuff like that will be hard to prove and hard to create and thus it will be rarely seen on the web. This is a plus for me because I don't like how guides for most optimized way to play your class for PvP or for PvE etc and stuff like that come within a month or two of a game release. I don't like being judged that I am not allocating my points exactly as the all mighty guide has said. This sort of guide-optimization culture ruins player interaction. Without it veteran players would be having discussions and debate what is best and then passing on their secrets to their guildies and then those secrets leaking out etc etc.. This is truly rich player interaction. Guides ruin that because no one talks about that, everyone just googles the guide and accepts it as the current meta until a new patch or expansion comes out and when it does 2 weeks later new guides emerge with the new meta. This makes the game less social and MMOs are supposed to be social. That's a big part of steven's reasoning to the choice to make this game's content player-driven. 2# Contribution meter is a nice compromise between the two options or an advancement to the dps meter if it's made to be able to be broken down into it's building blocks. 3# DPS meter would make it same old same old which I am comfortable with and if I am honest I enjoy dabbling in class optimization myself. But If I had to choose I'd choose no meter because I'd rather have the social aspect over the optimization aspect. The danger with this though is that people might find a way to hack a meter inside the game. Then a meter exists but it's available to only those who are able to fork out the money and break the rules. I would not like this. So if there is no way to 100% safeguard against a meter being hacked to the game then I'd rather have a meter instead of having no meter while rule breakers fund hackers to give them meters to use to better optimize their builds and steamroll me in pvp by using knowledge that I don't have access to. That's a nightmare.
rikardp98 wrote: » Birthday wrote: » Perhaps what we need is not a DPS meter but a contribution score meter which if need be to extract certain info can be divided into it's building blocks. So a contribution score meter would be a meter which calculates your total contribution to the mob killing or raid as a whole by measuring everything you've done. Did you CC a mob which was about to cast a big damage spell? You get 15 contribution points! Did you also top DPS? You get 60 contribution points! Did you hold aggro and soak up a ton of damage? You get 30 contribution points! Were you top 3 dps? You get 25 contribution points! Were you top heal(overhealing not included)? You get 60 contribution points! Did you heal the biggest portion of health(overhealing not included) after a boss's burst spell? You get 25 contribution points! Etc. etc. This way no player value would be lost to the scoreboard inside a raid due to class difference or gear difference. A player might be lacking in gear but he might be a veteran MMO player and contribute to the raid with timely CCs or/and timely heals/buffs(bard buffs) etc. Then this contribution meter could be broken down to it's individual parts (CC meter, DPS meter, Heal meter) etc. so that it can be used for player optimization. But if the community feels strongly against allowing for this kind of tool to exist for player optimization or as some call it perfectionism then the option to break down the contribution meter into it's individual parts and accessing hard numbers instead of just points can be blocked for players and thus we have reached a compromise where there is a scoreboard but at the same time it's not a tool that can be easily used for player optimization. I personally don't mind either way we go with this - no meter at all / contribution meter / or dps meter. It's all fine for me. 1# No meter would mean that creating meta builds and stuff like that will be hard to prove and hard to create and thus it will be rarely seen on the web. This is a plus for me because I don't like how guides for most optimized way to play your class for PvP or for PvE etc and stuff like that come within a month or two of a game release. I don't like being judged that I am not allocating my points exactly as the all mighty guide has said. This sort of guide-optimization culture ruins player interaction. Without it veteran players would be having discussions and debate what is best and then passing on their secrets to their guildies and then those secrets leaking out etc etc.. This is truly rich player interaction. Guides ruin that because no one talks about that, everyone just googles the guide and accepts it as the current meta until a new patch or expansion comes out and when it does 2 weeks later new guides emerge with the new meta. This makes the game less social and MMOs are supposed to be social. That's a big part of steven's reasoning to the choice to make this game's content player-driven. 2# Contribution meter is a nice compromise between the two options or an advancement to the dps meter if it's made to be able to be broken down into it's building blocks. 3# DPS meter would make it same old same old which I am comfortable with and if I am honest I enjoy dabbling in class optimization myself. But If I had to choose I'd choose no meter because I'd rather have the social aspect over the optimization aspect. The danger with this though is that people might find a way to hack a meter inside the game. Then a meter exists but it's available to only those who are able to fork out the money and break the rules. I would not like this. So if there is no way to 100% safeguard against a meter being hacked to the game then I'd rather have a meter instead of having no meter while rule breakers fund hackers to give them meters to use to better optimize their builds and steamroll me in pvp by using knowledge that I don't have access to. That's a nightmare. 1#: If you think that top end players follow guides then you know nothing. Guides are a generalization of a good way to play a class/build. Every encounters both in PvE and PvP have different "BiS" options and talent points that would be best. Top end player will ALWAYS theorycraft and test new things to find new ways of playing. So no, guides do not "ruin player interaction". A good example of this is The feral druid community in classic wow. But yes, if someone yells at you for no good reason then you should just block them. You play the way you want to play. 2#: I'm not sure of this, I mean it could be a nice compromise but I don't think it would solve the problem people have. The only way to solve it is to stay away from people that think a score on the meter is everything. Toxic people would still complain about a curtain players contribution score. 3#: i think most people like to optimize they way they like to play I wouldn't call addon or overlay makers hackers. They only take what is available to everyone and make an easy to understand UI to display information. They don't hack into the game servers and steal secret information to gain an advantage.
Birthday wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » Birthday wrote: » Perhaps what we need is not a DPS meter but a contribution score meter which if need be to extract certain info can be divided into it's building blocks. So a contribution score meter would be a meter which calculates your total contribution to the mob killing or raid as a whole by measuring everything you've done. Did you CC a mob which was about to cast a big damage spell? You get 15 contribution points! Did you also top DPS? You get 60 contribution points! Did you hold aggro and soak up a ton of damage? You get 30 contribution points! Were you top 3 dps? You get 25 contribution points! Were you top heal(overhealing not included)? You get 60 contribution points! Did you heal the biggest portion of health(overhealing not included) after a boss's burst spell? You get 25 contribution points! Etc. etc. This way no player value would be lost to the scoreboard inside a raid due to class difference or gear difference. A player might be lacking in gear but he might be a veteran MMO player and contribute to the raid with timely CCs or/and timely heals/buffs(bard buffs) etc. Then this contribution meter could be broken down to it's individual parts (CC meter, DPS meter, Heal meter) etc. so that it can be used for player optimization. But if the community feels strongly against allowing for this kind of tool to exist for player optimization or as some call it perfectionism then the option to break down the contribution meter into it's individual parts and accessing hard numbers instead of just points can be blocked for players and thus we have reached a compromise where there is a scoreboard but at the same time it's not a tool that can be easily used for player optimization. I personally don't mind either way we go with this - no meter at all / contribution meter / or dps meter. It's all fine for me. 1# No meter would mean that creating meta builds and stuff like that will be hard to prove and hard to create and thus it will be rarely seen on the web. This is a plus for me because I don't like how guides for most optimized way to play your class for PvP or for PvE etc and stuff like that come within a month or two of a game release. I don't like being judged that I am not allocating my points exactly as the all mighty guide has said. This sort of guide-optimization culture ruins player interaction. Without it veteran players would be having discussions and debate what is best and then passing on their secrets to their guildies and then those secrets leaking out etc etc.. This is truly rich player interaction. Guides ruin that because no one talks about that, everyone just googles the guide and accepts it as the current meta until a new patch or expansion comes out and when it does 2 weeks later new guides emerge with the new meta. This makes the game less social and MMOs are supposed to be social. That's a big part of steven's reasoning to the choice to make this game's content player-driven. 2# Contribution meter is a nice compromise between the two options or an advancement to the dps meter if it's made to be able to be broken down into it's building blocks. 3# DPS meter would make it same old same old which I am comfortable with and if I am honest I enjoy dabbling in class optimization myself. But If I had to choose I'd choose no meter because I'd rather have the social aspect over the optimization aspect. The danger with this though is that people might find a way to hack a meter inside the game. Then a meter exists but it's available to only those who are able to fork out the money and break the rules. I would not like this. So if there is no way to 100% safeguard against a meter being hacked to the game then I'd rather have a meter instead of having no meter while rule breakers fund hackers to give them meters to use to better optimize their builds and steamroll me in pvp by using knowledge that I don't have access to. That's a nightmare. 1#: If you think that top end players follow guides then you know nothing. Guides are a generalization of a good way to play a class/build. Every encounters both in PvE and PvP have different "BiS" options and talent points that would be best. Top end player will ALWAYS theorycraft and test new things to find new ways of playing. So no, guides do not "ruin player interaction". A good example of this is The feral druid community in classic wow. But yes, if someone yells at you for no good reason then you should just block them. You play the way you want to play. 2#: I'm not sure of this, I mean it could be a nice compromise but I don't think it would solve the problem people have. The only way to solve it is to stay away from people that think a score on the meter is everything. Toxic people would still complain about a curtain players contribution score. 3#: i think most people like to optimize they way they like to play I wouldn't call addon or overlay makers hackers. They only take what is available to everyone and make an easy to understand UI to display information. They don't hack into the game servers and steal secret information to gain an advantage. I don't want this type of theory crafting to be limited to only top end players. If there were no guides pretty much the whole community would be talking about it. Steven I believe mentioned that he doesn't want add-ons in his game. If that's so then overlays like a dps meter being an add-on is in that case considered a cheat as far as Steven is concerned because he doesn't want add-ons
rikardp98 wrote: » Birthday wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » Birthday wrote: » Perhaps what we need is not a DPS meter but a contribution score meter which if need be to extract certain info can be divided into it's building blocks. So a contribution score meter would be a meter which calculates your total contribution to the mob killing or raid as a whole by measuring everything you've done. Did you CC a mob which was about to cast a big damage spell? You get 15 contribution points! Did you also top DPS? You get 60 contribution points! Did you hold aggro and soak up a ton of damage? You get 30 contribution points! Were you top 3 dps? You get 25 contribution points! Were you top heal(overhealing not included)? You get 60 contribution points! Did you heal the biggest portion of health(overhealing not included) after a boss's burst spell? You get 25 contribution points! Etc. etc. This way no player value would be lost to the scoreboard inside a raid due to class difference or gear difference. A player might be lacking in gear but he might be a veteran MMO player and contribute to the raid with timely CCs or/and timely heals/buffs(bard buffs) etc. Then this contribution meter could be broken down to it's individual parts (CC meter, DPS meter, Heal meter) etc. so that it can be used for player optimization. But if the community feels strongly against allowing for this kind of tool to exist for player optimization or as some call it perfectionism then the option to break down the contribution meter into it's individual parts and accessing hard numbers instead of just points can be blocked for players and thus we have reached a compromise where there is a scoreboard but at the same time it's not a tool that can be easily used for player optimization. I personally don't mind either way we go with this - no meter at all / contribution meter / or dps meter. It's all fine for me. 1# No meter would mean that creating meta builds and stuff like that will be hard to prove and hard to create and thus it will be rarely seen on the web. This is a plus for me because I don't like how guides for most optimized way to play your class for PvP or for PvE etc and stuff like that come within a month or two of a game release. I don't like being judged that I am not allocating my points exactly as the all mighty guide has said. This sort of guide-optimization culture ruins player interaction. Without it veteran players would be having discussions and debate what is best and then passing on their secrets to their guildies and then those secrets leaking out etc etc.. This is truly rich player interaction. Guides ruin that because no one talks about that, everyone just googles the guide and accepts it as the current meta until a new patch or expansion comes out and when it does 2 weeks later new guides emerge with the new meta. This makes the game less social and MMOs are supposed to be social. That's a big part of steven's reasoning to the choice to make this game's content player-driven. 2# Contribution meter is a nice compromise between the two options or an advancement to the dps meter if it's made to be able to be broken down into it's building blocks. 3# DPS meter would make it same old same old which I am comfortable with and if I am honest I enjoy dabbling in class optimization myself. But If I had to choose I'd choose no meter because I'd rather have the social aspect over the optimization aspect. The danger with this though is that people might find a way to hack a meter inside the game. Then a meter exists but it's available to only those who are able to fork out the money and break the rules. I would not like this. So if there is no way to 100% safeguard against a meter being hacked to the game then I'd rather have a meter instead of having no meter while rule breakers fund hackers to give them meters to use to better optimize their builds and steamroll me in pvp by using knowledge that I don't have access to. That's a nightmare. 1#: If you think that top end players follow guides then you know nothing. Guides are a generalization of a good way to play a class/build. Every encounters both in PvE and PvP have different "BiS" options and talent points that would be best. Top end player will ALWAYS theorycraft and test new things to find new ways of playing. So no, guides do not "ruin player interaction". A good example of this is The feral druid community in classic wow. But yes, if someone yells at you for no good reason then you should just block them. You play the way you want to play. 2#: I'm not sure of this, I mean it could be a nice compromise but I don't think it would solve the problem people have. The only way to solve it is to stay away from people that think a score on the meter is everything. Toxic people would still complain about a curtain players contribution score. 3#: i think most people like to optimize they way they like to play I wouldn't call addon or overlay makers hackers. They only take what is available to everyone and make an easy to understand UI to display information. They don't hack into the game servers and steal secret information to gain an advantage. I don't want this type of theory crafting to be limited to only top end players. If there were no guides pretty much the whole community would be talking about it. Steven I believe mentioned that he doesn't want add-ons in his game. If that's so then overlays like a dps meter being an add-on is in that case considered a cheat as far as Steven is concerned because he doesn't want add-ons So writing down the damage you have done from your combat log on paper, and then divide it by the time it takes to kill a boss to get the DPS, is that cheating? Because, usually combat trackers display combat information outside the game, so it's not an addon but a sperated program that may have a overlay in-game.
Birthday wrote: » Perhaps what we need is not a DPS meter but a contribution score meter which if need be to extract certain info can be divided into it's building blocks. So a contribution score meter would be a meter which calculates your total contribution to the mob killing or raid as a whole by measuring everything you've done.
JamesSunderland wrote: » Some people fail to comprehend that "The Meta" is something that simple cannot be stopped from being established or spread, especially in a competitive game, in doesn't take long for games to be "sorted out" and put into spreadsheets. Limiting players tools and information never stops the meta formation, but game complexity certainly does make it more nuanced and slow it down quite well.
Birthday wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » Birthday wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » Birthday wrote: » Perhaps what we need is not a DPS meter but a contribution score meter which if need be to extract certain info can be divided into it's building blocks. So a contribution score meter would be a meter which calculates your total contribution to the mob killing or raid as a whole by measuring everything you've done. Did you CC a mob which was about to cast a big damage spell? You get 15 contribution points! Did you also top DPS? You get 60 contribution points! Did you hold aggro and soak up a ton of damage? You get 30 contribution points! Were you top 3 dps? You get 25 contribution points! Were you top heal(overhealing not included)? You get 60 contribution points! Did you heal the biggest portion of health(overhealing not included) after a boss's burst spell? You get 25 contribution points! Etc. etc. This way no player value would be lost to the scoreboard inside a raid due to class difference or gear difference. A player might be lacking in gear but he might be a veteran MMO player and contribute to the raid with timely CCs or/and timely heals/buffs(bard buffs) etc. Then this contribution meter could be broken down to it's individual parts (CC meter, DPS meter, Heal meter) etc. so that it can be used for player optimization. But if the community feels strongly against allowing for this kind of tool to exist for player optimization or as some call it perfectionism then the option to break down the contribution meter into it's individual parts and accessing hard numbers instead of just points can be blocked for players and thus we have reached a compromise where there is a scoreboard but at the same time it's not a tool that can be easily used for player optimization. I personally don't mind either way we go with this - no meter at all / contribution meter / or dps meter. It's all fine for me. 1# No meter would mean that creating meta builds and stuff like that will be hard to prove and hard to create and thus it will be rarely seen on the web. This is a plus for me because I don't like how guides for most optimized way to play your class for PvP or for PvE etc and stuff like that come within a month or two of a game release. I don't like being judged that I am not allocating my points exactly as the all mighty guide has said. This sort of guide-optimization culture ruins player interaction. Without it veteran players would be having discussions and debate what is best and then passing on their secrets to their guildies and then those secrets leaking out etc etc.. This is truly rich player interaction. Guides ruin that because no one talks about that, everyone just googles the guide and accepts it as the current meta until a new patch or expansion comes out and when it does 2 weeks later new guides emerge with the new meta. This makes the game less social and MMOs are supposed to be social. That's a big part of steven's reasoning to the choice to make this game's content player-driven. 2# Contribution meter is a nice compromise between the two options or an advancement to the dps meter if it's made to be able to be broken down into it's building blocks. 3# DPS meter would make it same old same old which I am comfortable with and if I am honest I enjoy dabbling in class optimization myself. But If I had to choose I'd choose no meter because I'd rather have the social aspect over the optimization aspect. The danger with this though is that people might find a way to hack a meter inside the game. Then a meter exists but it's available to only those who are able to fork out the money and break the rules. I would not like this. So if there is no way to 100% safeguard against a meter being hacked to the game then I'd rather have a meter instead of having no meter while rule breakers fund hackers to give them meters to use to better optimize their builds and steamroll me in pvp by using knowledge that I don't have access to. That's a nightmare. 1#: If you think that top end players follow guides then you know nothing. Guides are a generalization of a good way to play a class/build. Every encounters both in PvE and PvP have different "BiS" options and talent points that would be best. Top end player will ALWAYS theorycraft and test new things to find new ways of playing. So no, guides do not "ruin player interaction". A good example of this is The feral druid community in classic wow. But yes, if someone yells at you for no good reason then you should just block them. You play the way you want to play. 2#: I'm not sure of this, I mean it could be a nice compromise but I don't think it would solve the problem people have. The only way to solve it is to stay away from people that think a score on the meter is everything. Toxic people would still complain about a certain players contribution score. 3#: i think most people like to optimize they way they like to play I wouldn't call addon or overlay makers hackers. They only take what is available to everyone and make an easy to understand UI to display information. They don't hack into the game servers and steal secret information to gain an advantage. I don't want this type of theory crafting to be limited to only top end players. If there were no guides pretty much the whole community would be talking about it. Steven I believe mentioned that he doesn't want add-ons in his game. If that's so then overlays like a dps meter being an add-on is in that case considered a cheat as far as Steven is concerned because he doesn't want add-ons So writing down the damage you have done from your combat log on paper, and then divide it by the time it takes to kill a boss to get the DPS, is that cheating? Because, usually combat trackers display combat information outside the game, so it's not an addon but a sperated program that may have a overlay in-game. As far as I understand we are talking about no combat log here as well. Because if there is a combat log then it defeats the purpose of having no dps meter as you have said. Besides that you are talking about doing the statistical analysis by hand which a DPS meter does automatically. The DPS meter makes this whole process a lot easier and provides easy inclusion into this whole side of mathematics of the game to a wider audience. You are asking me if I'd prefer no dps meter but yes on combat log - yes if we can't have No Dps Meter and No combat log I'd rather have No dps meter and only a combat log because less people would actually want to do the whole math on paper because its tedious and time-consuming. Only truly dedicated players to the game would do that. This adds another layer dividing between casuals and hardcore players and makes it that much more likely that casuals will ask for advice(making the game more social) and the divide not only adds positively socially to the game but also adds to the payoff of being a hardcore player, putting in the time and effort because less people will do the paper math work thus less people will have optimized specs which translates to better pvp outcomes for the hardcore player. All these overlays and dps meters aren't evil but I'd also say they are handholding tools. True hardcore players of MMOs in the past would do the maths on hand and track their CDs and CCs in their mind. Then tools and overlays came out which allowed for a wider audience to get just as good as them without putting in as much effort and time. This actually made it so time spent in the game mattered less because more people could get to where you are thanks to automation like dps meters. Then came raid add-ons and PvP add-ons that again automated things which you'd normally have to pay attention for, discover by yourself, track and learn how to counter and thus feel a challenge within PvP and PvE. This again sucked out a lot from the meaning of spending time inside the game, gathering game knowledge, honing skills, learning dungeon layouts, drafting those layouts on a paper etc. Again things which separated hardcore players from casuals got destroyed by the automation of add-ons. This divide is exactly want made spending time in the game meaningful. Now it's meaningless because everyone has access to guides, everyone has access to tons of overlays and meters, everyone has access to dungeon add-ons which show you where to go, what to do and what to watch out for and they are all very noob friendly allowing for anyone to install and get to know how to use them in seconds. There even was a "quest arrow" add-on which made even leveling and world exploration into a mindless ordeal of following a arrow. Before it you'd have to at least go and search it on the web and before guides in the web people would actually have to read quests and in some cases when the quest was even more obscure they'd have to explore, search or ask other players if they have done it and if so where to go. This added to the depth of the game, added to the challenge of the game and added to the social aspect of the game but it's all gone now because of web guides, add-ons and meters. This is actually one of the reasons why I like Ashes because every server will be different so even if Steven caves and adds add-on support, adds meters etc then at least there wont be very good guides in terms of the content of the game on the web for a very long time thanks to the fact that every server will have different content. So yea I'd prefer it if possible to have no meters, no add-ons, no guides, no nothing. All these things are just carebear crutches and handholding tools which actually make the game LESS interesting by doing most of the exploring and work for you. And sadly arguments like "So don't use guides, add-ons but let the people who want to use them to use them." are invalid because these tools raise the bar for casuals and for hardcore players and if you don't use them as well then you can get kicked from raids because you are simply below even the casual level and it's not because you haven't spent time in the game and others have, no it's because they chose to read a guide or use an add-on so that they get their work cut out for them or automated.Add-ons, Meters and Guides make the game less social, remove from it's depth, subtract from the intentionally placed challenge of the game, world and level design and destroy world exploration.
rikardp98 wrote: » Birthday wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » Birthday wrote: » Perhaps what we need is not a DPS meter but a contribution score meter which if need be to extract certain info can be divided into it's building blocks. So a contribution score meter would be a meter which calculates your total contribution to the mob killing or raid as a whole by measuring everything you've done. Did you CC a mob which was about to cast a big damage spell? You get 15 contribution points! Did you also top DPS? You get 60 contribution points! Did you hold aggro and soak up a ton of damage? You get 30 contribution points! Were you top 3 dps? You get 25 contribution points! Were you top heal(overhealing not included)? You get 60 contribution points! Did you heal the biggest portion of health(overhealing not included) after a boss's burst spell? You get 25 contribution points! Etc. etc. This way no player value would be lost to the scoreboard inside a raid due to class difference or gear difference. A player might be lacking in gear but he might be a veteran MMO player and contribute to the raid with timely CCs or/and timely heals/buffs(bard buffs) etc. Then this contribution meter could be broken down to it's individual parts (CC meter, DPS meter, Heal meter) etc. so that it can be used for player optimization. But if the community feels strongly against allowing for this kind of tool to exist for player optimization or as some call it perfectionism then the option to break down the contribution meter into it's individual parts and accessing hard numbers instead of just points can be blocked for players and thus we have reached a compromise where there is a scoreboard but at the same time it's not a tool that can be easily used for player optimization. I personally don't mind either way we go with this - no meter at all / contribution meter / or dps meter. It's all fine for me. 1# No meter would mean that creating meta builds and stuff like that will be hard to prove and hard to create and thus it will be rarely seen on the web. This is a plus for me because I don't like how guides for most optimized way to play your class for PvP or for PvE etc and stuff like that come within a month or two of a game release. I don't like being judged that I am not allocating my points exactly as the all mighty guide has said. This sort of guide-optimization culture ruins player interaction. Without it veteran players would be having discussions and debate what is best and then passing on their secrets to their guildies and then those secrets leaking out etc etc.. This is truly rich player interaction. Guides ruin that because no one talks about that, everyone just googles the guide and accepts it as the current meta until a new patch or expansion comes out and when it does 2 weeks later new guides emerge with the new meta. This makes the game less social and MMOs are supposed to be social. That's a big part of steven's reasoning to the choice to make this game's content player-driven. 2# Contribution meter is a nice compromise between the two options or an advancement to the dps meter if it's made to be able to be broken down into it's building blocks. 3# DPS meter would make it same old same old which I am comfortable with and if I am honest I enjoy dabbling in class optimization myself. But If I had to choose I'd choose no meter because I'd rather have the social aspect over the optimization aspect. The danger with this though is that people might find a way to hack a meter inside the game. Then a meter exists but it's available to only those who are able to fork out the money and break the rules. I would not like this. So if there is no way to 100% safeguard against a meter being hacked to the game then I'd rather have a meter instead of having no meter while rule breakers fund hackers to give them meters to use to better optimize their builds and steamroll me in pvp by using knowledge that I don't have access to. That's a nightmare. 1#: If you think that top end players follow guides then you know nothing. Guides are a generalization of a good way to play a class/build. Every encounters both in PvE and PvP have different "BiS" options and talent points that would be best. Top end player will ALWAYS theorycraft and test new things to find new ways of playing. So no, guides do not "ruin player interaction". A good example of this is The feral druid community in classic wow. But yes, if someone yells at you for no good reason then you should just block them. You play the way you want to play. 2#: I'm not sure of this, I mean it could be a nice compromise but I don't think it would solve the problem people have. The only way to solve it is to stay away from people that think a score on the meter is everything. Toxic people would still complain about a certain players contribution score. 3#: i think most people like to optimize they way they like to play I wouldn't call addon or overlay makers hackers. They only take what is available to everyone and make an easy to understand UI to display information. They don't hack into the game servers and steal secret information to gain an advantage. I don't want this type of theory crafting to be limited to only top end players. If there were no guides pretty much the whole community would be talking about it. Steven I believe mentioned that he doesn't want add-ons in his game. If that's so then overlays like a dps meter being an add-on is in that case considered a cheat as far as Steven is concerned because he doesn't want add-ons So writing down the damage you have done from your combat log on paper, and then divide it by the time it takes to kill a boss to get the DPS, is that cheating? Because, usually combat trackers display combat information outside the game, so it's not an addon but a sperated program that may have a overlay in-game.
Birthday wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » Birthday wrote: » Perhaps what we need is not a DPS meter but a contribution score meter which if need be to extract certain info can be divided into it's building blocks. So a contribution score meter would be a meter which calculates your total contribution to the mob killing or raid as a whole by measuring everything you've done. Did you CC a mob which was about to cast a big damage spell? You get 15 contribution points! Did you also top DPS? You get 60 contribution points! Did you hold aggro and soak up a ton of damage? You get 30 contribution points! Were you top 3 dps? You get 25 contribution points! Were you top heal(overhealing not included)? You get 60 contribution points! Did you heal the biggest portion of health(overhealing not included) after a boss's burst spell? You get 25 contribution points! Etc. etc. This way no player value would be lost to the scoreboard inside a raid due to class difference or gear difference. A player might be lacking in gear but he might be a veteran MMO player and contribute to the raid with timely CCs or/and timely heals/buffs(bard buffs) etc. Then this contribution meter could be broken down to it's individual parts (CC meter, DPS meter, Heal meter) etc. so that it can be used for player optimization. But if the community feels strongly against allowing for this kind of tool to exist for player optimization or as some call it perfectionism then the option to break down the contribution meter into it's individual parts and accessing hard numbers instead of just points can be blocked for players and thus we have reached a compromise where there is a scoreboard but at the same time it's not a tool that can be easily used for player optimization. I personally don't mind either way we go with this - no meter at all / contribution meter / or dps meter. It's all fine for me. 1# No meter would mean that creating meta builds and stuff like that will be hard to prove and hard to create and thus it will be rarely seen on the web. This is a plus for me because I don't like how guides for most optimized way to play your class for PvP or for PvE etc and stuff like that come within a month or two of a game release. I don't like being judged that I am not allocating my points exactly as the all mighty guide has said. This sort of guide-optimization culture ruins player interaction. Without it veteran players would be having discussions and debate what is best and then passing on their secrets to their guildies and then those secrets leaking out etc etc.. This is truly rich player interaction. Guides ruin that because no one talks about that, everyone just googles the guide and accepts it as the current meta until a new patch or expansion comes out and when it does 2 weeks later new guides emerge with the new meta. This makes the game less social and MMOs are supposed to be social. That's a big part of steven's reasoning to the choice to make this game's content player-driven. 2# Contribution meter is a nice compromise between the two options or an advancement to the dps meter if it's made to be able to be broken down into it's building blocks. 3# DPS meter would make it same old same old which I am comfortable with and if I am honest I enjoy dabbling in class optimization myself. But If I had to choose I'd choose no meter because I'd rather have the social aspect over the optimization aspect. The danger with this though is that people might find a way to hack a meter inside the game. Then a meter exists but it's available to only those who are able to fork out the money and break the rules. I would not like this. So if there is no way to 100% safeguard against a meter being hacked to the game then I'd rather have a meter instead of having no meter while rule breakers fund hackers to give them meters to use to better optimize their builds and steamroll me in pvp by using knowledge that I don't have access to. That's a nightmare. 1#: If you think that top end players follow guides then you know nothing. Guides are a generalization of a good way to play a class/build. Every encounters both in PvE and PvP have different "BiS" options and talent points that would be best. Top end player will ALWAYS theorycraft and test new things to find new ways of playing. So no, guides do not "ruin player interaction". A good example of this is The feral druid community in classic wow. But yes, if someone yells at you for no good reason then you should just block them. You play the way you want to play. 2#: I'm not sure of this, I mean it could be a nice compromise but I don't think it would solve the problem people have. The only way to solve it is to stay away from people that think a score on the meter is everything. Toxic people would still complain about a certain players contribution score. 3#: i think most people like to optimize they way they like to play I wouldn't call addon or overlay makers hackers. They only take what is available to everyone and make an easy to understand UI to display information. They don't hack into the game servers and steal secret information to gain an advantage. I don't want this type of theory crafting to be limited to only top end players. If there were no guides pretty much the whole community would be talking about it. Steven I believe mentioned that he doesn't want add-ons in his game. If that's so then overlays like a dps meter being an add-on is in that case considered a cheat as far as Steven is concerned because he doesn't want add-ons
rikardp98 wrote: » Birthday wrote: » Perhaps what we need is not a DPS meter but a contribution score meter which if need be to extract certain info can be divided into it's building blocks. So a contribution score meter would be a meter which calculates your total contribution to the mob killing or raid as a whole by measuring everything you've done. Did you CC a mob which was about to cast a big damage spell? You get 15 contribution points! Did you also top DPS? You get 60 contribution points! Did you hold aggro and soak up a ton of damage? You get 30 contribution points! Were you top 3 dps? You get 25 contribution points! Were you top heal(overhealing not included)? You get 60 contribution points! Did you heal the biggest portion of health(overhealing not included) after a boss's burst spell? You get 25 contribution points! Etc. etc. This way no player value would be lost to the scoreboard inside a raid due to class difference or gear difference. A player might be lacking in gear but he might be a veteran MMO player and contribute to the raid with timely CCs or/and timely heals/buffs(bard buffs) etc. Then this contribution meter could be broken down to it's individual parts (CC meter, DPS meter, Heal meter) etc. so that it can be used for player optimization. But if the community feels strongly against allowing for this kind of tool to exist for player optimization or as some call it perfectionism then the option to break down the contribution meter into it's individual parts and accessing hard numbers instead of just points can be blocked for players and thus we have reached a compromise where there is a scoreboard but at the same time it's not a tool that can be easily used for player optimization. I personally don't mind either way we go with this - no meter at all / contribution meter / or dps meter. It's all fine for me. 1# No meter would mean that creating meta builds and stuff like that will be hard to prove and hard to create and thus it will be rarely seen on the web. This is a plus for me because I don't like how guides for most optimized way to play your class for PvP or for PvE etc and stuff like that come within a month or two of a game release. I don't like being judged that I am not allocating my points exactly as the all mighty guide has said. This sort of guide-optimization culture ruins player interaction. Without it veteran players would be having discussions and debate what is best and then passing on their secrets to their guildies and then those secrets leaking out etc etc.. This is truly rich player interaction. Guides ruin that because no one talks about that, everyone just googles the guide and accepts it as the current meta until a new patch or expansion comes out and when it does 2 weeks later new guides emerge with the new meta. This makes the game less social and MMOs are supposed to be social. That's a big part of steven's reasoning to the choice to make this game's content player-driven. 2# Contribution meter is a nice compromise between the two options or an advancement to the dps meter if it's made to be able to be broken down into it's building blocks. 3# DPS meter would make it same old same old which I am comfortable with and if I am honest I enjoy dabbling in class optimization myself. But If I had to choose I'd choose no meter because I'd rather have the social aspect over the optimization aspect. The danger with this though is that people might find a way to hack a meter inside the game. Then a meter exists but it's available to only those who are able to fork out the money and break the rules. I would not like this. So if there is no way to 100% safeguard against a meter being hacked to the game then I'd rather have a meter instead of having no meter while rule breakers fund hackers to give them meters to use to better optimize their builds and steamroll me in pvp by using knowledge that I don't have access to. That's a nightmare. 1#: If you think that top end players follow guides then you know nothing. Guides are a generalization of a good way to play a class/build. Every encounters both in PvE and PvP have different "BiS" options and talent points that would be best. Top end player will ALWAYS theorycraft and test new things to find new ways of playing. So no, guides do not "ruin player interaction". A good example of this is The feral druid community in classic wow. But yes, if someone yells at you for no good reason then you should just block them. You play the way you want to play. 2#: I'm not sure of this, I mean it could be a nice compromise but I don't think it would solve the problem people have. The only way to solve it is to stay away from people that think a score on the meter is everything. Toxic people would still complain about a certain players contribution score. 3#: i think most people like to optimize they way they like to play I wouldn't call addon or overlay makers hackers. They only take what is available to everyone and make an easy to understand UI to display information. They don't hack into the game servers and steal secret information to gain an advantage.
Noaani wrote: » What a lack of information does do to a games meta is make people too scared to deviate from it. Archeage is a good example of this - the game had very low combat tracker use, and for the entire time I played it the meta didn't shift at all. Daggerspels and Darkrunners all day. Once a meta is established, people need data in order to deviate from it. If Daggerspells and Darkrunners are the class to be, then that is what people will be because they have no data to tell them otherwise.
Birthday wrote: » This adds another layer dividing between casuals and hardcore players and makes it that much more likely that casuals will ask for advice(making the game more social) and the divide not only adds positively socially to the game but also adds to the payoff of being a hardcore player
JamesSunderland wrote: » Once stablished, meta can only change through game updates, or discovery of new meta meaning the previous meta wasn't completely stablished.
Noaani wrote: » This is why Darkrunners and Daggerspells are STILL the meta in Archeage. They aren't the best classes to run, they are just considered the best - and no one is producing any data to the contrary, so no one is changing.
rikardp98 wrote: » Noaani quick question, when did ACT start it's development? Or when was it first released and to what game? I know combat trackers have been around a long time but not sure where it started.
JamesSunderland wrote: » Noaani wrote: » This is why Darkrunners and Daggerspells are STILL the meta in Archeage. They aren't the best classes to run, they are just considered the best - and no one is producing any data to the contrary, so no one is changing. Darkrunner is still meta in Archeage for sure, but nowadays Executioner and the new builds using the melee tree Swiftblade are as meta as Darkrunner if not superior, Daggerspell fell from it's early grace since the nerfs in the Witchcraft skill tree and the release of the Malediction skill tree. Even with limited data, Meta changed because of game updates/changes. Some classes became worse than previously and others raised to the top.
Caww wrote: » unless DPS meters/Combat Trackers are forbidden by the ToS, we are gonna have them
Noaani wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » Noaani quick question, when did ACT start it's development? Or when was it first released and to what game? I know combat trackers have been around a long time but not sure where it started. I have nothing to do with its development, just to be clear. However, my understanding is that it was released in 2005 or 2006, primarily for EQ2, but developed in a way where it is easy to use with any log file. It was not the first combat tracker I used. The earliest combat tracker I know of was available in 1999, though there are no records of it that I can find anywhere (I looked for it earlier in this thread). Trackers have been around for basically all of MMO history.
rikardp98 wrote: » Noaani wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » Noaani quick question, when did ACT start it's development? Or when was it first released and to what game? I know combat trackers have been around a long time but not sure where it started. I have nothing to do with its development, just to be clear. However, my understanding is that it was released in 2005 or 2006, primarily for EQ2, but developed in a way where it is easy to use with any log file. It was not the first combat tracker I used. The earliest combat tracker I know of was available in 1999, though there are no records of it that I can find anywhere (I looked for it earlier in this thread). Trackers have been around for basically all of MMO history. Yeah I know, I remember the conversation about that xD I just knew you have used it for a long time, and that it's an old tracker, so I figured I'd ask
