Discussion; secondary class doesn't matter.

As far as I can tell, secondary classes do two things. They provide a list of adornments to spells and abilities of the primary class, and they are used to determine stats gained with each new level.

So, if our primary archetype will be where all of our base spells and abilities come from, and our secondary will provide those base spells and abilities with adornments we can select to apply, we can assume that the difference between a tank/tank and a tank/ranger will be almost entirely contained within the adornments each of these two classes have access to.

The thing is, we will gain access to more adornments as we adventure out in Verra.

In my experience playing MMO's, the best things are always the things that take the most time to get. If you apply this basic principle to these adornments, which group are likely to be better - the group of adornments you get as you level your character, or the group of adornments you actually spend time to gain access to?

Now, I admit I am making a few assumptions here - adornments found in the world will be based on primary archetype, not actual class is one assumption I am making.

What this says to me is that once players have spent time in Verra, once a large number of players have access to the ariety of adornments on offer outside of the class system, the bulk of players - those wanting to be the most effective at what they do at least - will likely all start using adornments on their spells and abilities that came from sources other than their secondary archetype.

If this is the case, if a tank/tank and a tank/ranger have the same spells and/or abilities selected, and the same adornments attached to them because they are the 'best' adornments, will there be any difference between a Guardian and a Warden?

Discuss!

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Riegnar

Noaani wrote: »

but if I am wrong then I would say a 2022 release would be our best bet.

Hi! I'm from your future in 2022. a release this years appears to be very unlikely. I would say a 2024 release would be our best bet.

Azryil

Was it really necessary to necro this thread for that....

Riegnar

Azryil wrote: »

Was it really necessary to necro this thread for that....

Apologies are due. I'm aware of that.

Just went through a deep rabbit hole at 5 am and HEY! the topic of secondary classes 3 years later is still relevant as ever with about 2 or 3 other threads discussing the topic on the first page as of the time I'm writing this.

Veeshan

I feel summoner one might be interesting in regards to secondaires and what they do i feel they have the biggest change with secondaries.
Summoner/Summoner = Summon mobs to right for them standard summoner pet class thing
Summoner/Fighter = Could summon weapons instead of pets and when summoned they get new skills based on the weapon they summoned they could last for x attacks or for a duration before needing to summon another one (GW2 had a system a bit like this which was realy nice however i dont think it got used to much due to being a little weaker imo for the mage due to stats allocation they were more for summoning for other people in alot of the cases)
Summoner/Bard = Could summon sprites onto players or mobs as buff/debuffs/dmg/heal for duration and could have special effects if x spell is used or have there own hot bar that the summoner can use to activate the special skill when they want.

Songcaller

I'm not convinced secondary class adds skill attributes. Last official statement said no stats from secondary. Unless the facet has changed, I do not think much of the secondary at all.

However, right now I don't even like any racial concepts so I might have to lose all my purchases and simply not play at all.

Noaani

Neurath wrote: »

I'm not convinced secondary class adds skill attributes. Last official statement said no stats from secondary. Unless the facet has changed, I do not think much of the secondary at all.

However, right now I don't even like any racial concepts so I might have to lose all my purchases and simply not play at all.

Indeed.

My current assumption is that primary class will affect stat increases, but secondary will not.

I still see nothing at all offered by secondary class other than augments. I'm not necessarily saying this is a bad thing.

It is perhaps worth pointing out that I expect there to be some builds that don't even use augments. Between spending points on buying skills and more points on upgrading them, I can see there being builds where augments that cost on top of that just don't factor in to it at all.

None of the above is to say that a character that specs heavily in to their secondary won't be drastically different to someone of the same primary that spec's heavily in to a different secondary. This thread was more about not spec'ing in to your secondary at all.

Dygz

What are "skill attributes"?
Augments don't add Active Skills.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

What are "skill attributes"?

Use your brain. Context is key.

Augments don't add Active Skills.

Who said they did?

Songcaller

I call the stats skill attributes because in other games you boost skill attributes by using a skill or weapon. I know ashes does not have such a system, however, I clarified with the second part by saying no stats from secondary. Either way, both systems add stats in different ways.

I understand you could build without using augments at all, last I heard augments change spell effects and are a horizontal progression. I do not see the face value right now because of the fact that I would build my toon around specific functions.

Due to the lack of info on augments right now, it is difficult to even glean how much a skill effect will be changed. In terms of Cc, I would have to take augments if thr class cc is not present or if the class cc only comes from augments.

I didn't realise the thread was from 2019 lol. I came here to fall on my sword which is quite apt for a necro thread. After years of investment though, it is very difficult to cut the actual cords

Cheers,
Neu

Dygz

Well, augments change how you play your Primary Archetype.
When I played Cleric in Alpha One, I still found myself wanting to go Invis, like I typically do as a Rogue or Druid. So, even if I'm primarily healing via Hallowed Ground, I would want to add on to it an augment from the Stealth School.
We'll have to see where I would grab that augment from: x/Rogue Stealth School? Thieves' Guild augment? Py'Rai augment?

I could have a Cleric/Mage who adds Frost Damage augment from the Mage's Elemental School onto Hallowed Ground. In that case, I would be primarily healing with Hallowed Ground, but also be able to stack Frost Damage with the Mage/x in my group. Or with other x/Mages in my group.

In Ashes, part of the "specific functions" will often be about how you choose to synergize your Secondary Archetype augments with the other people in your group in order to stack damage types or healing or buffs while still primarily focused on your primary role.

Veeshan

I think summoner probaly best way to explain it since there skills could be most varied with summons.

Enchanter, Summon may no longer be pets they summon but more like spirits that attack to allies or enemies (Much like lulu pixie from league of legends) they wont be attackable pets however yoou might summon a fire spirit into allied weapons causing them to do bonus fire dmg, might be able to disenchant an enemy and distract it with a spirit that enchants the creature where it stand there doing nothing till it damaged, could enchant a weapon the enchanter has to become an animated sword

Necromancer Summon will be more undead focus and now causes debuffs that stats a decay or disease stats where other necromancer spell may interact with for example undead ghoul applies debuff called diseased (Reduce healing received by 5% stacks 10 times) the necromancer might alter an offensive spell of the summoner to rot that might now turn that into x stacks of disease into rot which is now is a DoT debuff that might slow the afflicted or they might get access to life stealing abilities

Brood warriors summons could be all tankying pets that are designed to take a beaten or defensive support buffs for the party

Shadowmancers summons are invisable shadows that dont appear till you get hit by them they might be stronger during night time aswell potentially

Conjurer might get the most variety of summons but they only realy do dmg from there summon and there normal spell might now fire from the summon you have up and that skill could be slightly different depending on the summoned pet.

CROW3

Lol. @Dygz - SNEAKY heals. 🤫

Songcaller

Yeah, I mean, the summoner is a perfect start to examine, because, I would be a Female Py-Rai Shaman. I'm not sure how I want the Shaman to exist. I don't like Totems (Summoned), I don't like Personal Orbs (Summoned), I don't like Healing Pets (Summoned). I would hope that the summoner could go either pets or personal power (last I heard they could but most of the time summoner info is speculation and not stated by IS). Therefore, I do obviously want augments for the Py-Rai (Py-Rai nature and Shaman Nature Synergies). The main concern remains that the base class of summoner could be totalised around pets (Summons), and the only way to limit, reduce or remove pets could be through secondary schools (4 per meld). Naturally, The Shaman will have 4 choices from the Summoner to choose from - I just hope there will be enough variation for me to settle on a playstyle.

I played the cleric in Alpha 1 because I naturally wanted to familiarise with the base for the Shaman. The Cleric could be changed by release but the experience was a positive one. I did play the Cultured Elves (Boring) because the Wood Elves (Py'Rai) weren't available at the time.

Dygz

Mmmmn. Seems to me that you might want to be a Protector instead of a Shaman.
We should expect a Summoner to be Summoning something. Totems, Animals, Spirits, Orbs.

If you are trying to be a Nature-based Cleric with no "pets", Shaman probably is not the best choice.
You might be able to create what you want with a combo of Py'Rai augments and Religion augments.

Songcaller

I'm not convinced at all in fact Dygz. The reason is because, if all secondary augments change summons, all base summoner skills are summons and all racial, social and societal augments are summons then I have to state that the summoner class sounds one dimensional and absolutely awful because in effect you will be a one trick pony with different saddle styles but ultimately you still have a single saddle.

Anyway, my base is cleric and not a summoner. When we are told a tank augment can't replace a main tank or a cleric augment can't replace a cleric main, why are you under the impression a summoner secondary will be the exact same disposition as summoner main?

In effect, what you have stated is that build how you want is a falsehood. Would you expect tank secondary to only add threat/taunt? If so, the planned system sounds very restrictive because who the fuck needs 4 school options to be identical but with different spell effects only (visual effects)?

Ludullu

Neurath wrote: »

Would you expect tank secondary to only add threat/taunt? If so, the planned system sounds very restrictive because who the fuck needs 4 school options to be identical but with different spell effects only (visual effects)?

Until proven completely wrong, I'm expecting exactly that. A fairly restrictive system that only builds on 8 basic sets of skills, not really changing their core functions, but just adding/changing effects.

HumblePuffin

NiKr wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

Would you expect tank secondary to only add threat/taunt? If so, the planned system sounds very restrictive because who the fuck needs 4 school options to be identical but with different spell effects only (visual effects)?

Until proven completely wrong, I'm expecting exactly that. A fairly restrictive system that only builds on 8 basic sets of skills, not really changing their core functions, but just adding/changing effects.

Well they do plan for potential to drastically change the way skills work. Even small changes can drastically change the way an ability works though.

I really want more information on the 4 schools for each class. Some, like summoner, are really hard to come up with what the 4 schools could be.

Dygz

Neurath wrote: »

I'm not convinced at all in fact Dygz. The reason is because, if all secondary augments change summons, all base summoner skills are summons and all racial, social and societal augments are summons then I have to state that the summoner class sounds one dimensional and absolutely awful because in effect you will be a one trick pony with different saddle styles but ultimately you still have a single saddle.

Anyway, my base is cleric and not a summoner. When we are told a tank augment can't replace a main tank or a cleric augment can't replace a cleric main, why are you under the impression a summoner secondary will be the exact same disposition as summoner main?

In effect, what you have stated is that build how you want is a falsehood. Would you expect tank secondary to only add threat/taunt? If so, the planned system sounds very restrictive because who the fuck needs 4 school options to be identical but with different spell effects only (visual effects)?

Depends on what you mean by one-trick pony.
Primary Archetype Cleric is not a Summoner - obviously.
But, Summoner summons three types of "pets" (tank, dps, healing) - so you can expect at least 3 out of the 4 Schools to involve "pets" - and it's very likely the 4th will as well.

Class augments allow you to incorporate some of the identity of the Secondary Archetype. A Summoner summons things. You won't be a Cleric/Shaman. You will be a Cleric/Summoner. So, you should expect your Summoner augments to summon things.
Just because there are no archetypes or classes with Druid as part of the name does not mean you cannot effectively create a "druid".
What is said is that x/Summoner may not be the best way for you to build a "shaman" since you don't really want to Summon stuff.

If what you really want to be is a Cleric with some Nature abilities, it might be easier to do that with Py'Rai augments, Religion (Nature) augments, possibly Ranger augments (if you don't want "pets" involved) and possibly Social Org augments (if there is a Social Org deicated to Nature).

I don't know why you woud be expecting an x/Summoner not to Summon stuff.
It seems as though you just like the name Shaman.

I expect there to be a Threat augment School, a Damage Mitigation augment School, and a Damage dealing augment School for x/Tank. And, yes, I expect all 4 Schools to reflect the core of what a Tank/x does.
Just as we know so far that Mage has a Teleport augment School and an Elemental augment School. We can also expect some form of Mana drain/regen augment School for x/Mage.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

I don't know why you woud be expecting an x/Summoner not to Summon stuff.

Seems to me that he is saying he doesn't expect summoners to ONLY summon stuff.

That is my expectation ass well.

The flavor text of the summoner says Two hands are good, but in the summoner's opinion, four hands are always better.

To me, this means that about half of a summoners power as a class will come from their pet, meaning the other half will still come from the summoner.

This means the summoner will still have some basic attacks they can perform, maybe some CC, along with summons abilities and abilities and/or commands for their summons.

It would be a little silly to think that every summoner ability summons some sort of pet.

Songcaller

The issue remains, and I am sorry to repeat myself, however, you get no stats from secondary. With the current stats and limited sources for stats I do not consider a physical/magic hybrid to even be viable because the stats will boost either physical or magic.

Therefore, my choices were very very narrow around my current theory crafts. A cleric and a summoner both are magic based.

You keep saying I should expect summons- I never said I don't want summons, I said I do not like healing pets, I don't like healing orbs and I don't like totems. It is totally conceivable to me that with 4 schools, building wide, multiple sources of augments etc means I can avoid what I do not like.

What I do not agree with is being told to play a completely different class when neither myself nor you have even seen the summoner class - let alone the fucking augment system.

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