Discussion; secondary class doesn't matter.

As far as I can tell, secondary classes do two things. They provide a list of adornments to spells and abilities of the primary class, and they are used to determine stats gained with each new level.

So, if our primary archetype will be where all of our base spells and abilities come from, and our secondary will provide those base spells and abilities with adornments we can select to apply, we can assume that the difference between a tank/tank and a tank/ranger will be almost entirely contained within the adornments each of these two classes have access to.

The thing is, we will gain access to more adornments as we adventure out in Verra.

In my experience playing MMO's, the best things are always the things that take the most time to get. If you apply this basic principle to these adornments, which group are likely to be better - the group of adornments you get as you level your character, or the group of adornments you actually spend time to gain access to?

Now, I admit I am making a few assumptions here - adornments found in the world will be based on primary archetype, not actual class is one assumption I am making.

What this says to me is that once players have spent time in Verra, once a large number of players have access to the ariety of adornments on offer outside of the class system, the bulk of players - those wanting to be the most effective at what they do at least - will likely all start using adornments on their spells and abilities that came from sources other than their secondary archetype.

If this is the case, if a tank/tank and a tank/ranger have the same spells and/or abilities selected, and the same adornments attached to them because they are the 'best' adornments, will there be any difference between a Guardian and a Warden?

Discuss!

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Dygz

You keep saying "stats" - which is a meaningless term.
With Secondary Archetypes, we don't get new Active Skills. Instead we get augments.
Cleric augments provide some healing. Mage augments provide Teleports and Elemental damage.
Pretty much every Archetype is physical and magic based.
Rangers also use magic despite being classified as Martial rather than classified as Arcane.

You said you don't like Totems, Personal Orbs and Healing Pets.
Then you said you hope Shamans could either go pets or personal power.
Now, you say you specifically don't like healing orbs and healing pets or Totems.
So, no. You have not been at all clear about what you like or don't like or what you expect an x/Summoner to Summon that you would be OK with.

What are the 4 Summoner augment Schools you are expecting?
I didn't tell you to play a different class.
I said expect x/Summoners to Summon stuff. If you don't want to Suummon stuff, you might be better off choosing a different Secondary Archetype to fulfill your concept of "shaman".
That's a suggestion; not an order.

You said, "I do not see the face value right now because of the fact that I would build my toon around specific functions. Due to the lack of info on augments right now, it is difficult to even glean how much a skill effect will be changed."
And I'm saying, augments significantly change Active Skills. Mage augments add Teleportation and Elemental Damage. Cleric augments add Heals via the Life School and likely Life Drains through the Death School.
How much Elemental Damage and how much Healing we can't quantify, sure.

Just because the devs have labeled Cleric/Summoner with the name Shaman, does not mean that Cleric/Summoner is the class that will best fit your concept of "shaman".
Even if it turns out that Cleric/Summoner cannot fulfill your concept of "shaman", that does not mean you can't fulfill your concept of "shaman" with some other class. Just as the lack of a class labeled Druid does not mean it's impossible to build a character that strongly reflects the "druid" concept.
We won't know for certain until we have full details on the augment Schools for each Secondary Archetype and how those augments modify Active Skills.

Songcaller

I'm pleased you can quote my input but you miss my actual points. I never said I want green shoots to snare foes, autumn leave falls to blind foes, hemlock to poison foes, or do anything based on earth's idea of nature.

What I actual said was 'Py'Rai Nature and Shaman Nature'. I want you to understand that my actual idea of a true shaman is not a wood elf at all. However, I my options in Ashes are narrow because my interests are narrow.

I want you to explain why you believe a Cleric Based Shaman should use the exact same tools as a Summoner/Summoner.

Dygz

A Py'Rai is a Wood Elf so I don't understand how you can want to be a a female Py'Rai but your actual idea is not a Wood Elf at all.

I also have no clue what you think a Cleric-based Shaman is. You sometimes mention what you don't want as a Cleric-based Shaman, but then you contradict yourself.
I don't know what you think being a Shaman entails. What is "Shaman Nature"??

By Ashes terminology, a Shaman is a Cleric/Summoner; not a Summoner/Summoner.
In Ashes, a Shaman applies Summoner augments from the 4 Summoner augment Schools on top of Cleric Active Skills.
A Summoner/Summoner applies Summoner augments on top of Summoner Active Skills.
So, I do not believe that in Ashes, a Cleric-based Shaman can use the exact same tools as a Summoner/Summoner - nor have I indicated that is possible.

Your options for what you think a "shaman" is may be narrow.
We don't know whether the options in Ashes are too narrow to reflect your vision of "shaman" and we won't know until we have a comprehensive list of all of the augments.
Even if it turns out that you can't reflect your vision of "shaman" with x/Summoner augments, that does not mean it will be impossible for you to do so with augments from a different class or with Racial/Religion/Social Org augments.
We'll have to wait until we get a full list of augments to know the best path to building your vision of what a "shaman" is.
Again, similar to Druid. Just because there is not a class called Druid, that does not mean it's impossible to create a character that is very close to the "druid" concept.

Songcaller

You fail to twist the concepts in my head even while I'm stoned. Let me clear the haze.

Summoner (base) is a jack of all trades. Cleric (Base) is a Healer. Now, Cleric Augment gives life or death right now (High Priest and Necro for example). Now, the summoner already has the option to run tank pet, heal pet and dps pet without the augment. It is true you could probably choose what u wish to focus on.

What i do not understand is why you are adamant my idea of a shaman is not a heal pet which is already a summoner skill. Why the fuck would a summoner want to take an augment for something the base class already has? Surely a summoner wants more power to specific functions, either pet power or personal power. I would imagine one summoner school could add a generic pet which moulds to each base class. I do not believe the devs are so narrow minded to give 4 pets extra to summoner/summoner when there are only three roles. You seem to forget the best summon in game is currently slanted to be a Golem.

Sometimes I think you act like a clueless dimwit just to piss me off.

P.s concepts are subject to change and as of yet not even public. Only in wiki note form which in truth I have not read for some months. (Thank you, Lex).

Dygz

Maybe you are too stoned to adequately express your thoughts.
I really have no clue how you are trying to apply what you just wrote.

A Summoner Primary Archetype can Summon three types of "pets": Tank, DPS and Support.

I don't understand why you mention Cleric augments.
A Cleric/Summoner does not get Cleric augments.
A Cleric/Summoner will have Summoner augments: most likely Summoning some form of "pet" that can either Tank, DPS or Support. And those Summoner augments will be applied on top of Cleric Active Skills.

You stated, "I don't like Totems (Summoned), I don't like Personal Orbs (Summoned), I don't like Healing Pets (Summoned)."
I didn't state that your idea of a Shaman isn't a healing pet, YOU stated that you don't like Healing Pets.
You also said, "I would hope that the summoner could go either pets or personal power."
As if you don't want to Summon pets and instead just want to use "personal power".
You seemingly confirm that by saying: "
The main concern remains that the base class of summoner could be totalised around pets (Summons)"
Which seems to indicate that you don't want to Summon Tank "pets" or DPS "pets", either.
Which is why I said you should be expecting Summoners to Summon something.
You should be capable of clarifying what you mean: especially, what you do hope to do as a Shaman instead of focusing on what you don't want to do.
As a Cleric/Summoner what is it that you do want to Summon???

A Cleric/Summoner uses an augment that will reflect their Active Skills because it allows them to either stack effects, like 1.5x Heals, or to mix the effects.
If you add a Summoner augment for a Healing "pet" onto Divine Light, expect that a Healing Spirit might appear that does 1.5x Healing compared to a normal Divine Light.
If you add a Summoner augment for a Tank "pet" onto Divine Light, expect that a Tank Spirit might appear that covers the target and provides both Healing and Damage Mitigation.

x/Summoner has 4 augment Schools. It's the same 4 Schools regardless of the x/Summoner class.
The list of x/Summoner augments will be the same for every x/Summoner class.
But, each augment will perform differently depending on the specific Active Skill they are applied to.

Songcaller, Bladecaller, Shaman and Shadow Lord will all have the exact same list of Sumonner augments.
Mostly likely at least 3/4 of those augments will Summon some form of "pet".
But the same augment will affect the Active Skills of the Primary Archetype significantly differently.

Most likely, 3 of the Summoner augments Schools will be:
1: Tank "pets"
2: DPS "pets"
3: Support "pets"
4: ???

It could be that the 4th School is "Personal Power".
But where you say, "The main concern remains that the base class of summoner could be totalised around pets (Summons)"...that sounds like you want to avoid "pets" and instead focus on "Personal Power".
If you want to focus on "Personal Power", there may be some other class that will fit your image of "shaman", but won't make you ignore 3 out of the 4 augment Schools.

Summoner/Summoner does not necessarily get extra pets.
Summoner augments applied to Summoner Active SKills could just make the pets they already Summoned bigger and more powerful.

I have not forgotten about the Golem.
A Golem is Summoned by 8 Summoner Primary Archetypes Channeling together...intended to be used during Sieges; not raids.
I don't understand why you find that relevant to this discussion.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

A Summoner Primary Archetype can Summon three types of "pets": Tank, DPS and Support.

A Cleric/Summoner will have Summoner augments: most likely Summoning some form of "pet" that can either Tank, DPS or Support.

This is untrue, in it's entirety.

You are conflating a summoner primary archetype (will be able to summon tank, DPS or support pets) with a summoner secondary.

Dygz

What is it that you think x/Summoners will be Summoning?
What do you think a Bladecaller Calls?
What do you think a Falconer Summons?
What do you think a Conjurer Conjures?

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

No. I am not.
What is it that you think x/Summoners will be Summoning?

Not necessarily pets.

Dygz

That's why "pets" are in parenthesis. That includes the Blades a Bladecaller will be Summoning.

Electronn

I just want to know my best path to creating a caster dps with strong self heals and stealth.

Can you guys please argue about this instead:
Do I roll a Cleric primary/Rogue Secondary and use skill points to enhance the damage of my cleric active skills? Or is there a better way? Would a Cleric primary even be capable of filling a dps role? Perhaps a mage primary/rogue secondary and find other ways to achieve self-heals (religion, profession, etc)?

Dygz

A Cleric/Rogue will not replace the need for a Rogue/x in an 8 person group.
But, yes, you can use Rogue augments to enhance the damage of your Cleric Active Skills.

Most likely you will also be able to enhance damage by applying Thieves' Guild augments to your Celric Active Skills. So, Cleric/Mage seems like a possible path.
Might also be able to do Cleric/Ranger for Stealth.

You might be able to do Mage/Rogue...if Religion gives a self-heal augment.

Atama

I like the idea of a Cleric/Rogue being able to do extra damage if casting spells at someone's back.

Rather than backstabbing, they're backsmiting.

HumblePuffin

mcnasty wrote: »

I just want to know my best path to creating a caster dps with strong self heals and stealth.

Can you guys please argue about this instead:
Do I roll a Cleric primary/Rogue Secondary and use skill points to enhance the damage of my cleric active skills? Or is there a better way? Would a Cleric primary even be capable of filling a dps role? Perhaps a mage primary/rogue secondary and find other ways to achieve self-heals (religion, profession, etc)?

I think the third option would probably be your best bet assuming religious augments can provide healing. Don’t forget that augments take varying amounts of skill points to put on a skill so if you tunnel vision to hard on having all 3 you may screw yourself in the “how many active skills do I have to use” department.

I guess it really depends on what 3 of those things you stated are more important to you. Myself personally would probably do mage for caster status, rogue for the stealth augments, and then take alchemy for my healing.

Riegnar

Noaani wrote: »

This is untrue, in it's entirety.

Its*

Electronn

Dygz wrote: »

A Cleric/Rogue will not replace the need for a Rogue/x in an 8 person group.
But, yes, you can use Rogue augments to enhance the damage of your Cleric Active Skills.

Most likely you will also be able to enhance damage by applying Thieves' Guild augments to your Celric Active Skills. So, Cleric/Mage seems like a possible path.
Might also be able to do Cleric/Ranger for Stealth.

You might be able to do Mage/Rogue...if Religion gives a self-heal augment.

All good points! Thank you Dygz

HumblePuffin wrote: »

Myself personally would probably do mage for caster status, rogue for the stealth augments, and then take alchemy for my healing.

LOVE IT! The alchemy route is kinda what I was thinking. The more I read about the profession systems, as early as we are, I suspect a master alchemist using top-tier mats will be able to craft absolutely OP healing potions.

Is there any official info regarding whether it will be necessary to be a citizen of a Scientific node in order to be a master crafter? I'd really like to be a citizen of an Economic node, but it's not going to be an easy decision if I can't max craft without a Scientific node.

For that matter, I am wondering if the choice of node type and profession will be heavily interdependent. If you're a gatherer, I suspect you'll want an Economic node, whereas a alchemist might need a Scientific node.

HYPE

Dygz

I don't think there is a quote that mentions Scientific Node being required to be a Master Crafter.
But, Crafting is a major focus of Scientific Nodes. That's alluded to in the Know Your Nodes: Scientific Nodes
article.

Seems like Master Crafters would also be drawn to Economic Nodes in order to sell their wares.

CROW3

Atama wrote: »

I like the idea of a Cleric/Rogue being able to do extra damage if casting spells at someone's back.

Rather than backstabbing, they're backsmiting.

ROFL. "This is going to hurt me more than you."

Noaani

Riegnar wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

This is untrue, in it's entirety.

Its*

Yeah, if my phone is going to auto-correct something to make it wrong, and I am in a rush, I am not going to spend the time to correct it.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

That's why "pets" are in parenthesis. That includes the Blades a Bladecaller will be Summoning.

A summoner can summon three types of pets.

That is a summoner, not a cleric.

You don't get to weasel out of that by calling summoned blades pets. That is ridiculous, even for you.

Fact of the matter is, the statement that summoners can summon three different types of pets is only applicable to the summoner primary.

Dygz

I'm not weaseling out of anything. Ashes would use the term Summons. Neurath likes to use "pets".
In context, they both refer to anything that is Summoned by a Summoner/x or by an x/Summoner.

Post a dev quote that states an x/Summoner does not Summon three different types of "pets"/Summons.

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