Protecting Our Casuals: Gear

One big concern I have for AoC is that gear will end up providing too much power. AoC is already a game that will greatly reward those who play a lot which is why I believe that it is imperative for gear to only account for at most 20-30% of a character's power.

People will enjoy grinding out their gear even if each piece gives small increments of power increase. These small increments of power increase will allow the bulk of the population to not feel like they are so out geared that they cannot even come close to competing. This is very important because when those casual players will die over and over to a hardcore player that severely outgears them without any chance of fighting back, they will be very likely to just quit. Hardcore players will have other advantages (gold, skill, etc.) anyway because they play a lot more and there is no reason to further widen the gap between casual and hardcore players.

Please understand that I am not against rewarding those who invest more time into the game. I am just suggesting that their reward should not create such a great disparity between them and casual players. I truly believe that this can greatly help the health of the game and its population.

Find more posts tagged with

Staff

Comments

George_Black

Give it a rest

Bladen

VmanGman wrote: »

One big concern I have for AoC is that gear will end up providing too much power. AoC is already a game that will greatly reward those who play a lot which is why I believe that it is imperative for gear to only account for at most 20-30% of a character's power.

People will enjoy grinding out their gear even if each piece gives small increments of power increase. These small increments of power increase will allow the bulk of the population to not feel like they are so out geared that they cannot even come close to competing. This is very important because when those casual players will die over and over to a hardcore player that severely outgears them without any chance of fighting back, they will be very likely to just quit. Hardcore players will have other advantages (gold, skill, etc.) anyway because they play a lot more and there is no reason to further widen the gap between casual and hardcore players.

Please understand that I am not against rewarding those who invest more time into the game. I am just suggesting that their reward should not create such a great disparity between them and casual players. I truly believe that this can greatly help the health of the game and its population.

Ashes will be a game that turns casuals into hardcore players. Who needs a gf when this comes out? I sure won't. But seriously pleading to strip down systems to cater to casuals isn't going to get you anywhere here. You should be rewarded for time spent not the other way around. Also hardcore players will reach max level far sooner than casuals and by that time be well on their way in gear progression by the time casuals enter that stage. How can you ask to be competitive when that happens? How boring do you want gear progression to be? How is that healthy for the game?

VmanGman

Bladen wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

One big concern I have for AoC is that gear will end up providing too much power. AoC is already a game that will greatly reward those who play a lot which is why I believe that it is imperative for gear to only account for at most 20-30% of a character's power.

People will enjoy grinding out their gear even if each piece gives small increments of power increase. These small increments of power increase will allow the bulk of the population to not feel like they are so out geared that they cannot even come close to competing. This is very important because when those casual players will die over and over to a hardcore player that severely outgears them without any chance of fighting back, they will be very likely to just quit. Hardcore players will have other advantages (gold, skill, etc.) anyway because they play a lot more and there is no reason to further widen the gap between casual and hardcore players.

Please understand that I am not against rewarding those who invest more time into the game. I am just suggesting that their reward should not create such a great disparity between them and casual players. I truly believe that this can greatly help the health of the game and its population.

Ashes will be a game that turns casuals into hardcore players. Who needs a gf when this comes out? I sure won't. But seriously pleading to strip down systems to cater to casuals isn't going to get you anywhere here. You should be rewarded for time spent not the other way around. Also hardcore players will reach max level far sooner than casuals and by that time be well on their way in gear progression by the time casuals enter that stage. How can you ask to be competitive when that happens? How boring do you want gear progression to be? How is that healthy for the game?

It would be so helpful if people actually read the post.

fabula

I believe the node system in AoC offers the way that this issue can be addressed. The issue is not really about "casuals" and "hardcore", its about new and old players to the game. A game must never be hostile to new players but the nature of an mmo is power progression since you want ALL your players, including max-level ones to know that they can always log into the game and progress their character.

If all max-lvl players compete in a limited amount of zones regardless of having been playing for years or being brand new, then its going to suck for those new players until they catch up enough to compete. Here I am only including things like caravans and similar activities that allow a new max-lvl player make money and gear up when talking about competition. Things like castle-sieges, world-bosses or any other top-end activity are not things a brand new max-lvl player should be able to compete in.

AoC will have nodes that can be lvled up which means that zones with max-lvl mobs are not limited since another one can be leveled up. If we have 6 node levels and assume that level 4 has max-lvl mobs with the last 2 levels having tougher elite mobs then new and older players are never in competion with each other. A new player simply gears up in lvl 4-5 nodes with similarly geared players until they can compete in lvl 6 nodes.

Contortzz

Im casual as hell and it sounds alright to me, also all casuals should be a rouge

Vanish and run TF away haha

Dygz

Embarrassingly...

Caww

VmanGman wrote: »

@Caww

I never said that someone who plays 30+ hours week should be on the same level as someone who plays 2 hours a week. We are also not talking about levels… we’re talking about gear.

How did I get dragged back into this? But, may as well stick my toe back into the mud-hole.... I will inform the OP of a quote from Steven "Not everybody's going to be a winner and that's okay."

raeyik

Gman, I have read everything you and others have said on the first page but not the other 16+ so take my comments with that in mind.

It seems to me that you are concerned about being able to enjoy the game in a way that also allows casual players to be competitive in other aspects of the game. It seems to me that your answer to this concern is to moderate gear efficacy and gear attainability so that casual players (who otherwise would not be able to attain this super crazy elite top level gear) can defend themselves and also contribute to the world in a meaningful way. Would this be correct?

Assuming yes, here's my suggestion and a little TLDR to preface:

TLDR: I acknowledge where you're coming from but I believe your focus is on a micro scale based on a macro problem and fear of not enjoying the game based on prior mmo experiences you've had. I try to explain why I see it this way and give you background to expand your focus as I think that is more productive than hard anchoring yourself on one aspect of the game. Important factors that I dive into include skill/talent/experience, guilds, and your own resilience to pvp in games.

While your concern and worry is reasonable, you seem to be fixated on one aspect of a characters power. In other words, you want to hard cap something because from your perspective in the OP and on the first page, you believe that doing so would help maintain an ecosystem if you will, that casual players can best contribute in and also feel effective.

The truth of the matter is that even if the gear was 100% the same in power, a hardcore player who dedicates their time in this game enough to be able to clear the hardest of hard content will generally have a substantially better grasp on the game, their cooldowns, their strengths and weaknesses, and will have devoted a lot more time to practicing the game aspects that they enjoy. This means that in a 1 v 1 situation with everything else being equal except for experience, skill, and talent, the hardcore player will win nearly all the time. In essence, you're asking a top 200 tennis pro to play a match against a semi-pro try-hard. In these situations, the pro will win unless the semi-pro is exceptionally talented and on the up and up.

So, now give the pro your 20% additional armor power. No contest in a 1 v 1. Therefore, it's important to broaden your view of what constitutes game balance and game fairness. Games, unlike life, have the capacity to impose rules to make things more fair, but as I'm sure you can admit, even with all rules the same, playtime, dedication, practice, and attention to detail can in and of themselves create a vast breadth of capability.

In addition to that, you are trying to focus on maybe 5-10% of a server and truth is that the absolute hardest content will supposedly be conquerable by even a smaller percentage. With thousands of people on a server over hundreds of square kilometers, do you still believe that gear power that less than 10% of a server will possess is going to be the deciding factor in this games enjoyment by a casual? If you do, I urge you to take a step back and consider the size of the world, the ways to enjoy the game, the amount of content that everyone will be able to enjoy, and most importantly, how teamwork and friendships themselves will be able to overcome this concern of yours without any other factor being added.

Case in point: most guilds have "core" members. These are your everyday players who dedicate their time and energy to the guild as much as their own personal advancement. These folks don't hold a casual player to the same standard when it comes to guild contribution (and if they do, as a casual that might not be a good guild environment for you). These "core" members of any guild are usually your most advanced members and you might even have a few hardcore elites in your group. Thus, if Ashes manifests the way it's supposed to (in a multi-player, primarily co-op oriented fashion) your concern of getting targeted by the most powerful characters and feeling useless should essentially be negated. The corruption system should take care of anyone griefing you, and your guild should back you up should such a thing occur regardless of corruption system. No one can promise it will never happen, but the system is being designed in a way that you should have minimal exposure to this type of griefing. If ultimately, you are unwilling to accept a small chance that this will happen or simply are averse to experiencing this at all, then perhaps playing an MMO with PVP might not be for you - and that's ok!

So, if you've read all that, my question to you is: Do you still feel gear score/power is where the hard focus should be or do you think it's a substantially larger issue that just needs to be designed in a way where it is only one of many factors that influence your interactions in the game?

VmanGman

Caww wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

@Caww

I never said that someone who plays 30+ hours week should be on the same level as someone who plays 2 hours a week. We are also not talking about levels… we’re talking about gear.

How did I get dragged back into this? But, may as well stick my toe back into the mud-hole.... I will inform the OP of a quote from Steven "Not everybody's going to be a winner and that's okay."

You dragged yourself back into this when you affirmed a comment that was making accusations to things I never said. I completely agree that not everybody is going to be winner and that that’s ok. What I don’t agree with is someone having an insurmountable gear power advantage just because they have more free time.

VmanGman

@raeyik Yes, you make a good point regarding the fact that the game is designed for only a small minority being able to achieve the best gear which means that you won’t come across them at every turn. But even so, when you do come across them, I believe that their gear power level shouldn’t be an insurmountable obstacle. They should clearly have the advantage, but not make it silly where they will destroy you just because their fireball hits twice as hard as yours and they have twice as much health as you.

Also, you as well as many others seem to think that when I say casual I mean PvE player. There are plenty of casual players who are here for the PvP and ready to fight. It’s just a matter of whether they can stand a chance or not.

Fohlenbraten

Now i read a lot of your discussion that does not lead to an end or an outcome.

Maybe the problem can be tackled in a differet way by simply making the time to kill longer over all.
That will lead to a higher impact of skill.

An possibility would be to grant casuals (lower geared players) some extra resilience value in PVP situations to give them a chance (leads to a higher time to kill) but not increasing thier damage.

Anyway in big fights it will matter if our grp is organized and has the right mix of roles in it (without heal even the best geared player with the highest skill will simply loose too).

But i think we all are ok with the fact that skill and organization have to be rewarded.

And to be honest people who play a lot will be be better in average (skill and orga).

One tip for casuals (now i am one too) take a ranged class.

Deftly

I think you are looking at this from a current MMO point of view. Since crafted gear is useless in most MMOs casuals had to go through the same hoops as all players. In AoC, being in a guild that has a set of crafters could help with casuals catching up.

raeyik

@VmanGman - Sorry about the PvP assumption. It's just that in general (not always) it seems that gear concerns end up being PvP concerns. Often times (not always) those PvP concerns tend to come from people who are less comfortable with PvP or generally aren't comfortable with that sort of conflict in their gaming experience. That's the reason I went there with that aspect of my reply to you.

I do agree with your concern over gear being too powerful. I believe that your intent is good - you want everyone to be able to enjoy as much of the game together/individually as possible. I think most players want a balanced system where gear is not the only factor and I believe that Ashes of Creation has heard that message clearly - it's just a matter of making it all come together on paper as well as in real time.

I also agree with there needing to be a place to have these discussions so it's great that the team for this game monitors and reads the forums. I think the hardest thing for such a diverse audience is finding ways to have productive conversations that lead to innovation instead of a cyclical conversation where people just reiterate their points over and over without listening and moving forward together towards a solution.

Caww

VmanGman wrote: »

Caww wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

@Caww

I never said that someone who plays 30+ hours week should be on the same level as someone who plays 2 hours a week. We are also not talking about levels… we’re talking about gear.

How did I get dragged back into this? But, may as well stick my toe back into the mud-hole.... I will inform the OP of a quote from Steven "Not everybody's going to be a winner and that's okay."

You dragged yourself back into this when you affirmed a comment that was making accusations to things I never said.

I wanna die.... it was a 20 paragraph novella... which I only skimmed... but still seemed well written... I have no other defense....

VmanGman

Caww wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

Caww wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

@Caww

I never said that someone who plays 30+ hours week should be on the same level as someone who plays 2 hours a week. We are also not talking about levels… we’re talking about gear.

How did I get dragged back into this? But, may as well stick my toe back into the mud-hole.... I will inform the OP of a quote from Steven "Not everybody's going to be a winner and that's okay."

You dragged yourself back into this when you affirmed a comment that was making accusations to things I never said.

I wanna die.... it was a 20 paragraph novella... which I only skimmed... but still seemed well written... I have no other defense....

You put your stamp of approval on it… welcome to the real world. If you state that you agree with something and show support for it, you can be “dragged into it”. Sorry that I didn’t know you just skimmed and didn’t actually agree with it?

Noaani

VmanGman wrote: »

What I don’t agree with is someone having an insurmountable gear power advantage just because they have more free time.

The issue with this is that I is inevitable.

If I have 20 hours a week to spend on the game and you have 15 minutes, that is and should be an insurmountable advantage that I have over you.

There should literally be nothing at all you can do in that situation - other than spend more time in the game.

VmanGman

Noaani wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

What I don’t agree with is someone having an insurmountable gear power advantage just because they have more free time.

The issue with this is that I is inevitable.

If I have 20 hours a week to spend on the game and you have 15 minutes, that is and should be an insurmountable advantage that I have over you.

There should literally be nothing at all you can do in that situation - other than spend more time in the game.

Don’t take things out of context. My statement is obviously meant to be taken within reason. 15 minutes a week would never be expected to even ever make it to max level. That’s not even considered a MMORPG target audience.

I’m talking about a casual vs a hardcore player. The gear power difference between them shouldn’t be insurmountable.

Noaani

VmanGman wrote: »

I’m talking about a casual vs a hardcore player. The gear power difference between them shouldn’t be insurmountable.

Well, the 15 minutes vs 20 hours was very much a casual vs hardcore. However, the point is perfectly valid, and actually kind of is what you are asking for.

If you are OK with hat player that spends 15 minutes a week on the game falling behind that 20 hour a week player, where do you stand on someone that spends an hour a week in game? Should they be able to keep up? What about 2 hours? 5 hours? Where is that arbitrary line?

The actual point here though isn't time. It is effectiveness of the time spent in game. When I play a game at the top end, I have a plan for the bulk of the time I spend in game. I'll run more content in a week (just pure bulk if content) than most casual players would run in a year. That is because I have a group organized before I log in, with a goal in mind, and everyone ready to go.

Not only are we all ready to go and in place on time, but we all know the content and know each other better than a casual player knows anyone. Content that takes a casual player several hours takes us 15 minutes. Hell, I've had my guild pass more casual guilds forming up outside raid zones and cleared the zone before they are even all there - and that is still a guild, not even a pick up raid, a pick up raid would be even slower, assuming it ever even gets started.

So, if I spend 20 hours a week efficiently like that, should someone that logs in and spends 18 of those 20 hours shit talking in chat, or just waiting around for whatever, have the same quality of gear as me?

You are very clearly going to say no to that. Someone that doesn't put effort in to the game should not get the same gear rewards as someone that does. There should absolutely be a gap there - an insurmountable gap, in fact.

The thing with that is - we are now literally talking 15 minutes a week vs 20 hours a week, or damn close to it, because the content a casual player runs in a week can be (often is) run by more hardcore players in a fraction of the time.

How about, instead of time spent, we work it out based on boss kills. If someone that has 80 times as much time in game (15 minutes vs 20 hours) should have an insurmountable advantage, then surely that would apply to someone that has killed 80 times as many bosses, yes? Because that really is the actual reality of a hardcore player vs a casual player.

And lets not even get in to exactly which bosses it is that each has killed - because between a casual and hardcore player, I am sure you know who will win.

Caeryl

VmanGman wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

What I don’t agree with is someone having an insurmountable gear power advantage just because they have more free time.

The issue with this is that I is inevitable.

If I have 20 hours a week to spend on the game and you have 15 minutes, that is and should be an insurmountable advantage that I have over you.

There should literally be nothing at all you can do in that situation - other than spend more time in the game.

Don’t take things out of context. My statement is obviously meant to be taken within reason. 15 minutes a week would never be expected to even ever make it to max level. That’s not even considered a MMORPG target audience.

I’m talking about a casual vs a hardcore player. The gear power difference between them shouldn’t be insurmountable.

You based your definitions of hardcore and casual primarily on time spent being productive, so their reasoning is perfectly sound. Why should someone who chooses not to maintain at least an average gear rating be competitive against a player that maintains the highest gear rating? At that point, their lack of combat efficiency was an active choice on the casual’s part.

VmanGman

Noaani wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

I’m talking about a casual vs a hardcore player. The gear power difference between them shouldn’t be insurmountable.

Well, the 15 minutes vs 20 hours was very much a casual vs hardcore. However, the point is perfectly valid, and actually kind of is what you are asking for.

If you are OK with hat player that spends 15 minutes a week on the game falling behind that 20 hour a week player, where do you stand on someone that spends an hour a week in game? Should they be able to keep up? What about 2 hours? 5 hours? Where is that arbitrary line?

The actual point here though isn't time. It is effectiveness of the time spent in game. When I play a game at the top end, I have a plan for the bulk of the time I spend in game. I'll run more content in a week (just pure bulk if content) than most casual players would run in a year. That is because I have a group organized before I log in, with a goal in mind, and everyone ready to go.

Not only are we all ready to go and in place on time, but we all know the content and know each other better than a casual player knows anyone. Content that takes a casual player several hours takes us 15 minutes. Hell, I've had my guild pass more casual guilds forming up outside raid zones and cleared the zone before they are even all there - and that is still a guild, not even a pick up raid, a pick up raid would be even slower, assuming it ever even gets started.

So, if I spend 20 hours a week efficiently like that, should someone that logs in and spends 18 of those 20 hours shit talking in chat, or just waiting around for whatever, have the same quality of gear as me?

You are very clearly going to say no to that. Someone that doesn't put effort in to the game should not get the same gear rewards as someone that does. There should absolutely be a gap there - an insurmountable gap, in fact.

The thing with that is - we are now literally talking 15 minutes a week vs 20 hours a week, or damn close to it, because the content a casual player runs in a week can be (often is) run by more hardcore players in a fraction of the time.

How about, instead of time spent, we work it out based on boss kills. If someone that has 80 times as much time in game (15 minutes vs 20 hours) should have an insurmountable advantage, then surely that would apply to someone that has killed 80 times as many bosses, yes? Because that really is the actual reality of a hardcore player vs a casual player.

And lets not even get in to exactly which bosses it is that each has killed - because between a casual and hardcore player, I am sure you know who will win.

As I explained above, my statement is obviously meant to be taken within reason. 15 minutes a week is not a MMORPG target audience. Also, I t’s not an arbitrary line. Developers get paid to figure this stuff out… their job is to figure out how they’re designing the game and progression so that a casual can achieve stuff in game…

You get so bogged down on things that aren’t even being discussed. Of course that the way you spend your time matters, but we’re assuming that when we say casual vs hardcore, both players are working towards progressing their character.

I don’t understand why some of you are arguing for insurmountable advantages. It’s almost as if you’re scared of casuals. If you’re a hardcore player not only will you have a gear advantage, but you’re also probably better at the game… you do no need an insurmountable advantage from gear power. If you’ve ever played a game that is built around PvP (especially one where you have a lot to lose), you know that that’s a recipe for frustration and for the casual quitting.

@Caeryl

Child Item