VmanGman wrote: » Noaani wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » I’m talking about a casual vs a hardcore player. The gear power difference between them shouldn’t be insurmountable. Well, the 15 minutes vs 20 hours was very much a casual vs hardcore. However, the point is perfectly valid, and actually kind of is what you are asking for. If you are OK with hat player that spends 15 minutes a week on the game falling behind that 20 hour a week player, where do you stand on someone that spends an hour a week in game? Should they be able to keep up? What about 2 hours? 5 hours? Where is that arbitrary line? The actual point here though isn't time. It is effectiveness of the time spent in game. When I play a game at the top end, I have a plan for the bulk of the time I spend in game. I'll run more content in a week (just pure bulk if content) than most casual players would run in a year. That is because I have a group organized before I log in, with a goal in mind, and everyone ready to go. Not only are we all ready to go and in place on time, but we all know the content and know each other better than a casual player knows anyone. Content that takes a casual player several hours takes us 15 minutes. Hell, I've had my guild pass more casual guilds forming up outside raid zones and cleared the zone before they are even all there - and that is still a guild, not even a pick up raid, a pick up raid would be even slower, assuming it ever even gets started. So, if I spend 20 hours a week efficiently like that, should someone that logs in and spends 18 of those 20 hours shit talking in chat, or just waiting around for whatever, have the same quality of gear as me? You are very clearly going to say no to that. Someone that doesn't put effort in to the game should not get the same gear rewards as someone that does. There should absolutely be a gap there - an insurmountable gap, in fact. The thing with that is - we are now literally talking 15 minutes a week vs 20 hours a week, or damn close to it, because the content a casual player runs in a week can be (often is) run by more hardcore players in a fraction of the time. How about, instead of time spent, we work it out based on boss kills. If someone that has 80 times as much time in game (15 minutes vs 20 hours) should have an insurmountable advantage, then surely that would apply to someone that has killed 80 times as many bosses, yes? Because that really is the actual reality of a hardcore player vs a casual player. And lets not even get in to exactly which bosses it is that each has killed - because between a casual and hardcore player, I am sure you know who will win. As I explained above, my statement is obviously meant to be taken within reason. 15 minutes a week is not a MMORPG target audience. Also, I t’s not an arbitrary line. Developers get paid to figure this stuff out… their job is to figure out how they’re designing the game and progression so that a casual can achieve stuff in game… You get so bogged down on things that aren’t even being discussed. Of course that the way you spend your time matters, but we’re assuming that when we say casual vs hardcore, both players are working towards progressing their character. I don’t understand why some of you are arguing for insurmountable advantages. It’s almost as if you’re scared of casuals. If you’re a hardcore player not only will you have a gear advantage, but you’re also probably better at the game… you do no need an insurmountable advantage from gear power. If you’ve ever played a game that is built around PvP (especially one where you have a lot to lose), you know that that’s a recipe for frustration and for the casual quitting.@Caeryl
Noaani wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » I’m talking about a casual vs a hardcore player. The gear power difference between them shouldn’t be insurmountable. Well, the 15 minutes vs 20 hours was very much a casual vs hardcore. However, the point is perfectly valid, and actually kind of is what you are asking for. If you are OK with hat player that spends 15 minutes a week on the game falling behind that 20 hour a week player, where do you stand on someone that spends an hour a week in game? Should they be able to keep up? What about 2 hours? 5 hours? Where is that arbitrary line? The actual point here though isn't time. It is effectiveness of the time spent in game. When I play a game at the top end, I have a plan for the bulk of the time I spend in game. I'll run more content in a week (just pure bulk if content) than most casual players would run in a year. That is because I have a group organized before I log in, with a goal in mind, and everyone ready to go. Not only are we all ready to go and in place on time, but we all know the content and know each other better than a casual player knows anyone. Content that takes a casual player several hours takes us 15 minutes. Hell, I've had my guild pass more casual guilds forming up outside raid zones and cleared the zone before they are even all there - and that is still a guild, not even a pick up raid, a pick up raid would be even slower, assuming it ever even gets started. So, if I spend 20 hours a week efficiently like that, should someone that logs in and spends 18 of those 20 hours shit talking in chat, or just waiting around for whatever, have the same quality of gear as me? You are very clearly going to say no to that. Someone that doesn't put effort in to the game should not get the same gear rewards as someone that does. There should absolutely be a gap there - an insurmountable gap, in fact. The thing with that is - we are now literally talking 15 minutes a week vs 20 hours a week, or damn close to it, because the content a casual player runs in a week can be (often is) run by more hardcore players in a fraction of the time. How about, instead of time spent, we work it out based on boss kills. If someone that has 80 times as much time in game (15 minutes vs 20 hours) should have an insurmountable advantage, then surely that would apply to someone that has killed 80 times as many bosses, yes? Because that really is the actual reality of a hardcore player vs a casual player. And lets not even get in to exactly which bosses it is that each has killed - because between a casual and hardcore player, I am sure you know who will win.
VmanGman wrote: » I’m talking about a casual vs a hardcore player. The gear power difference between them shouldn’t be insurmountable.
Caww wrote: » The next problem "entitled casuals" will complain about is that their guild is not big enough, strong enough or organized enough to obtain the drops required for better gear. They will then say since they can't spend the time or just can't get their act together and they really are hobbled, they need an extra advantage from the devs because, it's only fair to get something for next to nothing. Now, I'm not saying anybody in this long, drawn-out post would ever say so, but it does seem realistic that somebody will blame their lack of game time and their weak guild for being pummeled every-time they step out of their house. Just saying.. no finger-pointing...
VmanGman wrote: » I don’t understand why some of you are arguing for insurmountable advantages.
Dygz wrote: » Meh - again... Casual players don't have to only acquire gear on their own. Especially if they are in a guild. So...I dunno why people keep harping on casual time v hardcore time. That is not insurmountable.
Noaani wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » I don’t understand why some of you are arguing for insurmountable advantages. I'm not. I am arguing for reasonable gear progression. You simply can not have reasonable gear progression without casual players facing an insurmountable gap. If the gap between someone that runs even 10 dungeons a week (a lot for a casual player) and someone that runs 100 is able to be bridged, then the game does not have reasonable gear progression. There is no fantastical middle ground where both exist.
bloodprophet wrote: » Not at all scared of casuals. Scared the game you propose will be a homogenized mess centered around the lowest common denominator. GW2 has this and is one of the reasons I detest that "game" as much as I do. A new player logs in and 2-3 weeks later has the same quality gear as some one playing a lot for the last 5 years. This means very poor disparity between those that work for it and those that just show up. If players want to compete let them earn it like just like everyone else. As others have said it's about the amount of time you spend in game but what you do with that time that matters. Should someone that spends 5 hours a day doing Shakespeare in the park have the same results as someone organizing with friends and guildies to go run challenging content? I say no.
VmanGman wrote: » Reasonableness is a very subjective thing. In my opinion each tier giving 5% (maybe more depending on how many tiers there are) power increase is perfectly reasonable. In your opinion it might not be.
The bottom line, is that if you have played games that revolve a lot of their content around PvP, you should know that you don’t want the masses (casuals) to feel like they are facing insurmountable odds from other players.
Noaani wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » Reasonableness is a very subjective thing. In my opinion each tier giving 5% (maybe more depending on how many tiers there are) power increase is perfectly reasonable. In your opinion it might not be. This depends on how many tiers there are, and how much effort it takes to go between them. If there are only 4 or 5 tiers, top end players will just run out of game to play. If there are 12 - 15 tiers, then that 5% (which is low, but acceptable - it means each piece of equipment offers 0.3% increase per tier), then a top end player will have 50% over many casual players. The bottom line, is that if you have played games that revolve a lot of their content around PvP, you should know that you don’t want the masses (casuals) to feel like they are facing insurmountable odds from other players. Alternatively, if a game has character progression as a core gameplay aspect, that progression needs to continue.
VmanGman wrote: » Noaani wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » I’m talking about a casual vs a hardcore player. The gear power difference between them shouldn’t be insurmountable. Well, the 15 minutes vs 20 hours was very much a casual vs hardcore. However, the point is perfectly valid, and actually kind of is what you are asking for. If you are OK with hat player that spends 15 minutes a week on the game falling behind that 20 hour a week player, where do you stand on someone that spends an hour a week in game? Should they be able to keep up? What about 2 hours? 5 hours? Where is that arbitrary line? The actual point here though isn't time. It is effectiveness of the time spent in game. When I play a game at the top end, I have a plan for the bulk of the time I spend in game. I'll run more content in a week (just pure bulk if content) than most casual players would run in a year. That is because I have a group organized before I log in, with a goal in mind, and everyone ready to go. Not only are we all ready to go and in place on time, but we all know the content and know each other better than a casual player knows anyone. Content that takes a casual player several hours takes us 15 minutes. Hell, I've had my guild pass more casual guilds forming up outside raid zones and cleared the zone before they are even all there - and that is still a guild, not even a pick up raid, a pick up raid would be even slower, assuming it ever even gets started. So, if I spend 20 hours a week efficiently like that, should someone that logs in and spends 18 of those 20 hours shit talking in chat, or just waiting around for whatever, have the same quality of gear as me? You are very clearly going to say no to that. Someone that doesn't put effort in to the game should not get the same gear rewards as someone that does. There should absolutely be a gap there - an insurmountable gap, in fact. The thing with that is - we are now literally talking 15 minutes a week vs 20 hours a week, or damn close to it, because the content a casual player runs in a week can be (often is) run by more hardcore players in a fraction of the time. How about, instead of time spent, we work it out based on boss kills. If someone that has 80 times as much time in game (15 minutes vs 20 hours) should have an insurmountable advantage, then surely that would apply to someone that has killed 80 times as many bosses, yes? Because that really is the actual reality of a hardcore player vs a casual player. And lets not even get in to exactly which bosses it is that each has killed - because between a casual and hardcore player, I am sure you know who will win. As I explained above, my statement is obviously meant to be taken within reason. 15 minutes a week is not a MMORPG target audience. Also, I t’s not an arbitrary line. Developers get paid to figure this stuff out… their job is to figure out how they’re designing the game and progression so that a casual can achieve stuff in game… You get so bogged down on things that aren’t even being discussed. Of course that the way you spend your time matters, but we’re assuming that when we say casual vs hardcore, both players are working towards progressing their character. I don’t understand why some of you are arguing for insurmountable advantages. It’s almost as if you’re scared of casuals. If you’re a hardcore player not only will you have a gear advantage, but you’re also probably better at the game… you do no need an insurmountable advantage from gear power. If you’ve ever played a game that is built around PvP (especially one where you have a lot to lose), you know that that’s a recipe for frustration and for the casual quitting.@/Caeryl
Caeryl wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » Noaani wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » I’m talking about a casual vs a hardcore player. The gear power difference between them shouldn’t be insurmountable. Well, the 15 minutes vs 20 hours was very much a casual vs hardcore. However, the point is perfectly valid, and actually kind of is what you are asking for. If you are OK with hat player that spends 15 minutes a week on the game falling behind that 20 hour a week player, where do you stand on someone that spends an hour a week in game? Should they be able to keep up? What about 2 hours? 5 hours? Where is that arbitrary line? The actual point here though isn't time. It is effectiveness of the time spent in game. When I play a game at the top end, I have a plan for the bulk of the time I spend in game. I'll run more content in a week (just pure bulk if content) than most casual players would run in a year. That is because I have a group organized before I log in, with a goal in mind, and everyone ready to go. Not only are we all ready to go and in place on time, but we all know the content and know each other better than a casual player knows anyone. Content that takes a casual player several hours takes us 15 minutes. Hell, I've had my guild pass more casual guilds forming up outside raid zones and cleared the zone before they are even all there - and that is still a guild, not even a pick up raid, a pick up raid would be even slower, assuming it ever even gets started. So, if I spend 20 hours a week efficiently like that, should someone that logs in and spends 18 of those 20 hours shit talking in chat, or just waiting around for whatever, have the same quality of gear as me? You are very clearly going to say no to that. Someone that doesn't put effort in to the game should not get the same gear rewards as someone that does. There should absolutely be a gap there - an insurmountable gap, in fact. The thing with that is - we are now literally talking 15 minutes a week vs 20 hours a week, or damn close to it, because the content a casual player runs in a week can be (often is) run by more hardcore players in a fraction of the time. How about, instead of time spent, we work it out based on boss kills. If someone that has 80 times as much time in game (15 minutes vs 20 hours) should have an insurmountable advantage, then surely that would apply to someone that has killed 80 times as many bosses, yes? Because that really is the actual reality of a hardcore player vs a casual player. And lets not even get in to exactly which bosses it is that each has killed - because between a casual and hardcore player, I am sure you know who will win. As I explained above, my statement is obviously meant to be taken within reason. 15 minutes a week is not a MMORPG target audience. Also, I t’s not an arbitrary line. Developers get paid to figure this stuff out… their job is to figure out how they’re designing the game and progression so that a casual can achieve stuff in game… You get so bogged down on things that aren’t even being discussed. Of course that the way you spend your time matters, but we’re assuming that when we say casual vs hardcore, both players are working towards progressing their character. I don’t understand why some of you are arguing for insurmountable advantages. It’s almost as if you’re scared of casuals. If you’re a hardcore player not only will you have a gear advantage, but you’re also probably better at the game… you do no need an insurmountable advantage from gear power. If you’ve ever played a game that is built around PvP (especially one where you have a lot to lose), you know that that’s a recipe for frustration and for the casual quitting.@/Caeryl “You don’t wanna make gear progression pointless because ur scared!!1!” Dude just stop. Casuals are going to lose because they don’t play frequently and that means they won’t have a deep understanding of game mechanics. No amount of “skill”, which you have so far not defined, is going to overcome the knowledge gap between someone who plays competitively for 8 hours a day and someone who plays non-competitively for 1 hour a day. This thread should have died ages ago because you can’t actually back up your self-perceived “points” with sound logic. You just type the same thing over and over and say nothing meaningful.
George_Black wrote: » Furthering the conversation?
VmanGman wrote: » It seems that I’m repeating myself because people like you are failing to understand a very basic concept and keep putting words in my mouth that I never said.
VmanGman wrote: » It would be helpful if you understood the conversation before commenting. No one said that casual players would need to acquire gear on their own. Also, the insurmountability is referring to the gear power difference and not the time.
VmanGman wrote: » It’s undeniable that a hardcore player will have better gear than a casual player. The entire point of the conversation is regarding how big the gear power difference is between that hardcore player and the casual player… we’re 17 pages into this… come on now. Pay attention.
CROW3 wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » It seems that I’m repeating myself because people like you are failing to understand a very basic concept and keep putting words in my mouth that I never said. Much of this conversation has swirled around the assumed definitions between 'casual' and 'hardcore'. So, @VmanGman - by what quantifiable measure do you define 'hardcore' and 'casual' and where exactly are you drawing the line between the two?
