Azherae wrote: » Guilds don't solve this, friends don't solve this.
Azherae wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » After all these conversations, ultimately what it all comes down to is that people who oppose my suggestion feel that they need to see their numbers go up by a lot or else they feel like their time is not valued and they also feel like they should be able to wipe the floor with under geared players not because of skill but because they have better items. We just have very different ideas of what good and healthy game design is. That is in no way at all the counterargument you were facing here. It's definitely a thing you could project, but as someone who I hope can see both your side and theirs, you heavily misinterpreted what people were telling you. "This isn't the way to solve the problem." "This isn't the actual problem to begin with." Two possible better summaries of the majority of responses.
VmanGman wrote: » After all these conversations, ultimately what it all comes down to is that people who oppose my suggestion feel that they need to see their numbers go up by a lot or else they feel like their time is not valued and they also feel like they should be able to wipe the floor with under geared players not because of skill but because they have better items. We just have very different ideas of what good and healthy game design is.
CROW3 wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Guilds don't solve this, friends don't solve this. We know crafted items will be powerful. We know group content will provide access to top gear and materiel. Both are accomplished by friends and/or guilds. That accelerates gear progression and thus power.
VmanGman wrote: » Azherae wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » After all these conversations, ultimately what it all comes down to is that people who oppose my suggestion feel that they need to see their numbers go up by a lot or else they feel like their time is not valued and they also feel like they should be able to wipe the floor with under geared players not because of skill but because they have better items. We just have very different ideas of what good and healthy game design is. That is in no way at all the counterargument you were facing here. It's definitely a thing you could project, but as someone who I hope can see both your side and theirs, you heavily misinterpreted what people were telling you. "This isn't the way to solve the problem." "This isn't the actual problem to begin with." Two possible better summaries of the majority of responses. Please explain what suggestions we’ve had to address the gear power gaps between casuals and hardcore players aside from making sure that the power isn’t too great. Saying that casuals will be fed gear by hardcore players is not a reality if you’ve ever played a MMO. Please also explain how in a game that has the potential for PvP around every corner gear power gaps being too great isn’t a problem. There might have been various answers throughout the thread, but overall the main counter arguments brought against my post boiled down to the two I mentioned above.
CROW3 wrote: » SirChancelot wrote: » And honestly if you win just because you have more free time, I could definitely argue that starts to fall under pay to win at a point. This isn't pay to win (edit: like 100%, absolutely, irrefutably NOT p2w). It's called play to win.
SirChancelot wrote: » And honestly if you win just because you have more free time, I could definitely argue that starts to fall under pay to win at a point.
Azherae wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » Azherae wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » After all these conversations, ultimately what it all comes down to is that people who oppose my suggestion feel that they need to see their numbers go up by a lot or else they feel like their time is not valued and they also feel like they should be able to wipe the floor with under geared players not because of skill but because they have better items. We just have very different ideas of what good and healthy game design is. That is in no way at all the counterargument you were facing here. It's definitely a thing you could project, but as someone who I hope can see both your side and theirs, you heavily misinterpreted what people were telling you. "This isn't the way to solve the problem." "This isn't the actual problem to begin with." Two possible better summaries of the majority of responses. Please explain what suggestions we’ve had to address the gear power gaps between casuals and hardcore players aside from making sure that the power isn’t too great. Saying that casuals will be fed gear by hardcore players is not a reality if you’ve ever played a MMO. Please also explain how in a game that has the potential for PvP around every corner gear power gaps being too great isn’t a problem. There might have been various answers throughout the thread, but overall the main counter arguments brought against my post boiled down to the two I mentioned above. ~sighs~ Casuals are fed gear by hardcore players if the hardcore player levels into the next tier of gear. What would I hold onto my Shiny Dagger Of Flashiness for when I now have a Glorious Dagger of Execution? I sell it or I give it to a friend. In a game where not everyone is playing every class, they have no reason to hoard these. They will, at WORST, get sold, probably for cheap-ish. I can't say it's not a problem, but the problem isn't solved by the gear, it's solved by Corruption and accessibility of the combat system. I cannot find a situation in which this happens, and I'm starting to think you just fudged your own numbers somewhere. If I am the Scourge of the Riverlands with Optimal Gear for my build in all slots because I play 8h a day, and that still only makes me '10-15% stronger' in combat (gear wise) than the player playing 2h a day, a probably large part of the population of the game, I'm not going to just be going around stomping every player and living up to my Scourge name. I would need 24% bonus aggregate or a TERRIBLE combat system for this to be true. You have my numbers on why THAT is already. You're throwing emotion at a logic problem and you're now almost inspiring me to start throwing logic back, but you haven't convinced me that you care about it yet, so... Go reread the numbers.
VmanGman wrote: » Azherae wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » Azherae wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » After all these conversations, ultimately what it all comes down to is that people who oppose my suggestion feel that they need to see their numbers go up by a lot or else they feel like their time is not valued and they also feel like they should be able to wipe the floor with under geared players not because of skill but because they have better items. We just have very different ideas of what good and healthy game design is. That is in no way at all the counterargument you were facing here. It's definitely a thing you could project, but as someone who I hope can see both your side and theirs, you heavily misinterpreted what people were telling you. "This isn't the way to solve the problem." "This isn't the actual problem to begin with." Two possible better summaries of the majority of responses. Please explain what suggestions we’ve had to address the gear power gaps between casuals and hardcore players aside from making sure that the power isn’t too great. Saying that casuals will be fed gear by hardcore players is not a reality if you’ve ever played a MMO. Please also explain how in a game that has the potential for PvP around every corner gear power gaps being too great isn’t a problem. There might have been various answers throughout the thread, but overall the main counter arguments brought against my post boiled down to the two I mentioned above. ~sighs~ Casuals are fed gear by hardcore players if the hardcore player levels into the next tier of gear. What would I hold onto my Shiny Dagger Of Flashiness for when I now have a Glorious Dagger of Execution? I sell it or I give it to a friend. In a game where not everyone is playing every class, they have no reason to hoard these. They will, at WORST, get sold, probably for cheap-ish. I can't say it's not a problem, but the problem isn't solved by the gear, it's solved by Corruption and accessibility of the combat system. I cannot find a situation in which this happens, and I'm starting to think you just fudged your own numbers somewhere. If I am the Scourge of the Riverlands with Optimal Gear for my build in all slots because I play 8h a day, and that still only makes me '10-15% stronger' in combat (gear wise) than the player playing 2h a day, a probably large part of the population of the game, I'm not going to just be going around stomping every player and living up to my Scourge name. I would need 24% bonus aggregate or a TERRIBLE combat system for this to be true. You have my numbers on why THAT is already. You're throwing emotion at a logic problem and you're now almost inspiring me to start throwing logic back, but you haven't convinced me that you care about it yet, so... Go reread the numbers. Or you could break down the item you no longer need into raw materials and use those to repair your now better item. Or maybe you’ll give it to the alt of a guild mate in your hardcore guild. You’re assuming how the system works. We don’t know yet, so your solution might not be a solution at all. I understand that the corruption system will help protect casuals to some extent. However, there might still be situations where a casual guild would try to farm somewhere and a hardcore guild could just come and stomp them out because their gear power level is insurmountable. And don’t get me started on caravans. A lot of people have brought up the idea of casuals needing to rely on their hardcore friends for help. But that’s bogus for two reasons: 1. It sucks to be relegated to babysitter gameplay… no one wants to feel like they need a babysitter to play the game. 2. Hardcore players most often play with other hardcore players because that is the best and most optimal way to play hardcore… you won’t have casuals holding you back. Especially in a game that relies on open world PvP as much as AoC.
SirChancelot wrote: » Time=money If I win the lottery and don't have to work, and clean my house, or cut my lawn, or do anything else I can pay other people to do. Then I would have way more free time to play and I could be 'better' than you because I have more free time than you... Sounds dangerously close to pay to win to me...
CROW3 wrote: » SirChancelot wrote: » Time=money If I win the lottery and don't have to work, and clean my house, or cut my lawn, or do anything else I can pay other people to do. Then I would have way more free time to play and I could be 'better' than you because I have more free time than you... Sounds dangerously close to pay to win to me... No. P2W means I spend money in addition to the sub to gain items or buffs that make me more powerful than other players. If we both pay the same gym membership fee to the same gym and I go everyday and you go once a month, I’m going to be stronger than you. That’s not pay to win.
NiKr wrote: » Have the equalized power in arenas, but definitely not in the open world. What's the point of building up your character in an rpg if it's not stronger than other characters that have not been built up as much. Let hardcore players be stronger than casuals because they're hardcore.
Azherae wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » Azherae wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » Azherae wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » After all these conversations, ultimately what it all comes down to is that people who oppose my suggestion feel that they need to see their numbers go up by a lot or else they feel like their time is not valued and they also feel like they should be able to wipe the floor with under geared players not because of skill but because they have better items. We just have very different ideas of what good and healthy game design is. That is in no way at all the counterargument you were facing here. It's definitely a thing you could project, but as someone who I hope can see both your side and theirs, you heavily misinterpreted what people were telling you. "This isn't the way to solve the problem." "This isn't the actual problem to begin with." Two possible better summaries of the majority of responses. Please explain what suggestions we’ve had to address the gear power gaps between casuals and hardcore players aside from making sure that the power isn’t too great. Saying that casuals will be fed gear by hardcore players is not a reality if you’ve ever played a MMO. Please also explain how in a game that has the potential for PvP around every corner gear power gaps being too great isn’t a problem. There might have been various answers throughout the thread, but overall the main counter arguments brought against my post boiled down to the two I mentioned above. ~sighs~ Casuals are fed gear by hardcore players if the hardcore player levels into the next tier of gear. What would I hold onto my Shiny Dagger Of Flashiness for when I now have a Glorious Dagger of Execution? I sell it or I give it to a friend. In a game where not everyone is playing every class, they have no reason to hoard these. They will, at WORST, get sold, probably for cheap-ish. I can't say it's not a problem, but the problem isn't solved by the gear, it's solved by Corruption and accessibility of the combat system. I cannot find a situation in which this happens, and I'm starting to think you just fudged your own numbers somewhere. If I am the Scourge of the Riverlands with Optimal Gear for my build in all slots because I play 8h a day, and that still only makes me '10-15% stronger' in combat (gear wise) than the player playing 2h a day, a probably large part of the population of the game, I'm not going to just be going around stomping every player and living up to my Scourge name. I would need 24% bonus aggregate or a TERRIBLE combat system for this to be true. You have my numbers on why THAT is already. You're throwing emotion at a logic problem and you're now almost inspiring me to start throwing logic back, but you haven't convinced me that you care about it yet, so... Go reread the numbers. Or you could break down the item you no longer need into raw materials and use those to repair your now better item. Or maybe you’ll give it to the alt of a guild mate in your hardcore guild. You’re assuming how the system works. We don’t know yet, so your solution might not be a solution at all. I understand that the corruption system will help protect casuals to some extent. However, there might still be situations where a casual guild would try to farm somewhere and a hardcore guild could just come and stomp them out because their gear power level is insurmountable. And don’t get me started on caravans. A lot of people have brought up the idea of casuals needing to rely on their hardcore friends for help. But that’s bogus for two reasons: 1. It sucks to be relegated to babysitter gameplay… no one wants to feel like they need a babysitter to play the game. 2. Hardcore players most often play with other hardcore players because that is the best and most optimal way to play hardcore… you won’t have casuals holding you back. Especially in a game that relies on open world PvP as much as AoC. Yeah that's the answer type I was expecting. But I posit to you a quandary. On page 13 of this thread at the top you ask me about Enchanting, wondering why I believe Intrepid would do something a specific way that would fix the problem. Then a little later you outright ask 'do we know that they have the skills to design like this'? But technically they wouldn't need the skill, right? In all arrogance, if they were not skilled, all they would need to do is listen to me. To do otherwise would be to explicitly choose to do it less skilfully because they thought it would be better. But then, if they won't even listen to me when I'm giving 'ways to solve it within their own systems that I figure they are already going to leverage'... what's the point of the thread? Why would they care what you have to say?
Azherae wrote: » Actually nvm. You're not going to reread the numbers, you're not going to demonstrate any faith in Intrepid, you're not going to accept that not all hardcore players are the same, and you haven't even defined what that is even after I for some reason went to actually get you the numbers you needed to do it with. But you WILL repeat multiple times about the equalized gear thing. My model for this type of engagement indicates that I should avoid it, for my own sake, so, my options are to finally ignore you, or attempt a 'hostile takeover' of this thread while arguing your point for you just so that it's at least halfway productive, but then it would end because I can't drum up enough bad-faith situations to justify it. So, sure. Casual Guild running a Caravan will lose to a Hardcore Guild. In my model, a Casual Guild of Intermittent Players will DEFINITELY get stomped by players who play this game as their fulltime job. The question changes, then. When did this Casual Guild of Intermittent Players find time to pack up a whole CARAVAN?
Azherae wrote: » This is a little complicated in some people's perspectives for a related reason so, I'll ask a point for my own edification actually, both to you and @SirChancelot . In a game with no sub, with the capacity to spend $20 (and no more) across 4 different $5 premium 'buffs' to your character (let's assume nothing that feeds DIRECTLY into combat for simplicity), is spending the $5-10-15-20 Pay To Win? I have a problem with games where Bob can spend $800 a month to Sue's $8 and get 100x the chances or rewards, but no problem with games where Bob can spend $20 and Sue can choose to spend $0 and Bob be generally superior to Sue. Playtime is the same, to me.
George_Black wrote: » If you want pure skill go play tekken or dota or whatever. Mind you... casuals will never be better in mmo pvp even if you give them a max out char with top items. Know why? Lack of experience.
