Female Expression In AoC

As a Female MMO gamer I would like to suggest giving more effeminate options in armor styles. My concern is that I would like to have the option for dressing effeminately. The reason I am suggesting to make it optional is so people can dress as feminine or masculine or neutral as the player choses. This aids players self expression. Different armor styles as well as jewelry and makeup would be very helpful in this goal. I understand that you would like to keep things on the more practical side but this could be stifling to the communities creativity. Self expression and fashion is very important to me as a player I would like as many options as possible in creating my character.

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Sybil_Lanel

Azherae wrote: »

Leiloni wrote: »

The monthly cosmetic this month is a perfect example of what we're asking Intrepid not to do. Even in concept art they're not even trying to make this gear fit the female form better and have a different, more feminine design. Frankly it's ugly. This is the level of ugly I expect from New World (and I wrote in many a forum thread the same thing I'm writing here, albeit in more detail because I had in game armor screenshots to criticize). Please Intrepid change direction while it's still early.

I'm not sure what you mean here, so I'm genuinely asking. Looking at that set, i can't think of what someone would want to be different about it? To me personally, this looks exactly normal and what I would want. The underlying form of the character would determine the overall look of this gear.

So, uh... what would you want changed here?

Ok so the point is one a male character this would look fine. It's nice enough but this is not a feminine design. This is a female character model wearing mens armor. Now there is nothing wrong with that but some people don't want their female characters to wear male armor. It is ok to have sets that do this. But when you have a grand total of 4 sets out of a couple dozen with any distinction between male and female variants.

Dygz

What makes that armor male??
And how would it need to be tweaked to make it female armor??

CROW3

I don’t know what gender my armor is, I respect its privacy.

Kreed

Dygz wrote: »

What makes that armor male??
And how would it need to be tweaked to make it female armor??

Here is an example:

Similar but has a difference slight style to go with the female body. Unlike the armor that is currently in AoC store which has no distinguishing style for the female characters.

Frostshot1

When it comes to Fashion wars, I'm Pro Choice. Sure I'm not a fan of people wearing purple Barney Dinosaur costumes around. But I want people to have as many options to express their characters as possible. This was my main beef with Vanilla WoW back in the day, everyone looked the same.

One thing I do worry about, is with the heavy cosmetic shopping going on already, will this completely destroy the sense of progression in the early game?

George_Black

Frostshot wrote: »

When it comes to Fashion wars, I'm Pro Choice. Sure I'm not a fan of people wearing purple Barney Dinosaur costumes around. But I want people to have as many options to express their characters as possible. This was my main beef with Vanilla WoW back in the day, everyone looked the same.

One thing I do worry about, is with the heavy cosmetic shopping going on already, will this completely destroy the sense of progression in the early game?

cosmetics are bound to a certain item lv, based on how badass they look. People won't be able to use them on lv1. Plus they don't look that great. They said they will keep the best designs for actual ingame items.

Amist

George_Black wrote: »

Frostshot wrote: »

When it comes to Fashion wars, I'm Pro Choice. Sure I'm not a fan of people wearing purple Barney Dinosaur costumes around. But I want people to have as many options to express their characters as possible. This was my main beef with Vanilla WoW back in the day, everyone looked the same.

One thing I do worry about, is with the heavy cosmetic shopping going on already, will this completely destroy the sense of progression in the early game?

cosmetics are bound to a certain item lv, based on how badass they look. People won't be able to use them on lv1. Plus they don't look that great. They said they will keep the best designs for actual ingame items.

Hmmm no, that doesn't seem to be the case.

From the wiki:

"Costumes (and pets) don't have a level restriction. Other cosmetics require an in-game item to be obtained first.[16][17]"

George_Black

I stand corrected

Dygz

So...armor without high heels, boob cups and space to show off boob cleavage is inherently male??

Leiloni

I put on page 1 examples of armor I thought was designed well for females - https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/336597/#Comment_336597

TheDarkSorcerer

Leiloni wrote: »

Jhoren wrote: »

Armor can be plenty feminine without any skin showing at all.

High heels are straight up a no-go in any situation involving armor and combat.

Why can't I have both feminine armor that also shows skin? And make it heavy armor if I want to be more survivable? And heels make armor look more feminine, which is a huge problem with heavy plate armor, so that's a stylistic choice that makes us women feel prettier. It's less of an issue with leather or cloth.

But I don't want to be forced to wear in game armor merely for it's looks - I want whatever weight armor I choose to look pretty so I can make the best build choice for my character.

We have horns and tails and fling magic - reality was never on the table. If I want to look pretty, who are you to tell me no? Because you feel like it's not "appropriate"? Who decides that in a high fantasy video game? Let players have choices.

I felt like my Aion examples were stylish and tame and something everyone could agree on. I'd be ok with even more skin, but those are probably the best way to go.

This sounds like when people say "boys wear blue, girls wear pink" conversation. You can still be feminine even in heavy armor you know. Showing skin or exposed tatas doesn't make you more femme or female than being "covered up". Let's expand our mindset here. You can still have developers create beautiful feminine silhouettes of heavy, medium and light armor without having organs exposed. It's outdated and ugly and belong in eastern mmo's.

Azherae

Kreed wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

What makes that armor male??
And how would it need to be tweaked to make it female armor??

Here is an example:

Similar but has a difference slight style to go with the female body. Unlike the armor that is currently in AoC store which has no distinguishing style for the female characters.

I'm addressing just this one because I don't want to assume that OP @Sybil_Lanel or even the target of my question @Leiloni agree with you precisely.

Addressing just metal/heavy armor, full plate, or whatever. The image you linked fits what I know as the 'industry standard' for 'making this armor type apparently fit women'.

1. Heels.
2. Neck exposure even if the male armor is properly protective
3. Less bulky plate in general (my argument would be that the males have extra for no reason, if I had to give an opinion)
4. Hair, face and head all more exposed to 'soften', as I've heard it described.

I'm also seeing some 'removal of armor on thighs' but I don't think that's usually done.

I can say I know people who get upset at #4, they want their actual helmets to BE HELMETS.
Most games I play, #2 doesn't come up, that tends to be just art.
Heels is already a sticking point of this thread.

If you see other differences, let me know. I certainly won't complain about them. I'll complain even less if the player can choose either helmet style, and 'heels or no heels'. I'd also figure that if an armorset is supposed to be 'bulky plate' it probably could have a 'formfit plate' style, again for both.

Neck also seems like a place where a 'layer' could be added that would be relatively easy to toggle on and off.
As usual I have turned this into 'why my suggestion is good', so you can either ignore me or 'tell me why it's bad or not enough'.

I want our players, male and female, to be able to decide how much their plate armor covers their neck without it being gender-locked.

For the other people mentioned in this post, just noting again that I'm not assuming you agree with @Kreed here.

Leiloni

TheDarkSorcerer wrote: »

Leiloni wrote: »

Jhoren wrote: »

Armor can be plenty feminine without any skin showing at all.

High heels are straight up a no-go in any situation involving armor and combat.

Why can't I have both feminine armor that also shows skin? And make it heavy armor if I want to be more survivable? And heels make armor look more feminine, which is a huge problem with heavy plate armor, so that's a stylistic choice that makes us women feel prettier. It's less of an issue with leather or cloth.

But I don't want to be forced to wear in game armor merely for it's looks - I want whatever weight armor I choose to look pretty so I can make the best build choice for my character.

We have horns and tails and fling magic - reality was never on the table. If I want to look pretty, who are you to tell me no? Because you feel like it's not "appropriate"? Who decides that in a high fantasy video game? Let players have choices.

I felt like my Aion examples were stylish and tame and something everyone could agree on. I'd be ok with even more skin, but those are probably the best way to go.

This sounds like when people say "boys wear blue, girls wear pink" conversation. You can still be feminine even in heavy armor you know. Showing skin or exposed tatas doesn't make you more femme or female than being "covered up". Let's expand our mindset here. You can still have developers create beautiful feminine silhouettes of heavy, medium and light armor without having organs exposed. It's outdated and ugly and belong in eastern mmo's.

Most of the outfits I showed from Aion they're covered up and completely appropriate. I like the outfits because they're stylish, form-fitting, and flattering, while still looking like armor. I don't care about any "boys wear blue, girls wear pink" stuff. I'm just telling you what I like on my female toons as a woman myself. I like feminine, pretty, stylish, form-flattering outfits for my characters and I won't apologize for that.

Here I'll repost the pics for anyone who hasn't seen them yet -

The thighs are a bit ugly on this second one but the rest of the set is nice.

Snowjade

Other side of this, I would like slender plate armor thats not harlot style. Like a woman warrior that might work for a religious order.

I also like to play gorgeous male with magic, so that flowy clothes feeling mixed with pants/shirt underneath for the more dexterous.

Nerror

Leiloni wrote: »

TheDarkSorcerer wrote: »

Leiloni wrote: »

Jhoren wrote: »

Armor can be plenty feminine without any skin showing at all.

High heels are straight up a no-go in any situation involving armor and combat.

Why can't I have both feminine armor that also shows skin? And make it heavy armor if I want to be more survivable? And heels make armor look more feminine, which is a huge problem with heavy plate armor, so that's a stylistic choice that makes us women feel prettier. It's less of an issue with leather or cloth.

But I don't want to be forced to wear in game armor merely for it's looks - I want whatever weight armor I choose to look pretty so I can make the best build choice for my character.

We have horns and tails and fling magic - reality was never on the table. If I want to look pretty, who are you to tell me no? Because you feel like it's not "appropriate"? Who decides that in a high fantasy video game? Let players have choices.

I felt like my Aion examples were stylish and tame and something everyone could agree on. I'd be ok with even more skin, but those are probably the best way to go.

This sounds like when people say "boys wear blue, girls wear pink" conversation. You can still be feminine even in heavy armor you know. Showing skin or exposed tatas doesn't make you more femme or female than being "covered up". Let's expand our mindset here. You can still have developers create beautiful feminine silhouettes of heavy, medium and light armor without having organs exposed. It's outdated and ugly and belong in eastern mmo's.

Most of the outfits I showed from Aion they're covered up and completely appropriate.

By covered up and appropriate, you mean from a PG 13 point of view? Sure. I agree with that. But none of those outfits are covered up and appropriate from a functional armor point of view. From that point of view, they just scream "stab me in the heart and throat, and slice my femoral arteries for an easy kill".

Look, I get it, you like the cutesy look we often see in Korean and Japanese games and anime and whatnot. Your preference is form over function for sure. And yeah, it's just a game, not a RL simulation, so we can magic the inadequacies of the armor away.

I'd rather not see that in the game for heavy armor at least, or any cosmetics that are applied to it. And to some extent for medium armor as well. My preference is that function should not be sacrificed for form. To me, that's much more interesting and cool to look at if they can also make the armor good looking. I think there is a real beauty in a well-designed piece of armor that both looks like it actually protects the wearer, while being ornate and intricate enough to also look epic. If the breastplate doesn't look like it can stop an arrow from piercing your heart it just looks stupid to me.

I also realize I am unlikely to get what I want in Ashes when it comes to this particular aspect. Too many cosmetics are out already that will break that I think. I am not saying your preference is "wrong" either @Leiloni , but I am going to push against it, because it goes directly against mine, and I would like to see them make more functional-looking armors, not less.

Writing this post reminded me of a video I recently saw.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBxdTkddHaE

Understanding how that V on the breast plate functions, and learning more about the details in general, made me go from thinking "that's a pretty basic breastplate" to "that's a really cool and awesome breastplate". Add some more ornamentation or engraving on it, and I can see that being a legendary breastplate in the game.

Dygz

Leiloni wrote: »

TheDarkSorcerer wrote: »

Leiloni wrote: »

Jhoren wrote: »

Armor can be plenty feminine without any skin showing at all.

High heels are straight up a no-go in any situation involving armor and combat.

Why can't I have both feminine armor that also shows skin? And make it heavy armor if I want to be more survivable? And heels make armor look more feminine, which is a huge problem with heavy plate armor, so that's a stylistic choice that makes us women feel prettier. It's less of an issue with leather or cloth.

But I don't want to be forced to wear in game armor merely for it's looks - I want whatever weight armor I choose to look pretty so I can make the best build choice for my character.

We have horns and tails and fling magic - reality was never on the table. If I want to look pretty, who are you to tell me no? Because you feel like it's not "appropriate"? Who decides that in a high fantasy video game? Let players have choices.

I felt like my Aion examples were stylish and tame and something everyone could agree on. I'd be ok with even more skin, but those are probably the best way to go.

This sounds like when people say "boys wear blue, girls wear pink" conversation. You can still be feminine even in heavy armor you know. Showing skin or exposed tatas doesn't make you more femme or female than being "covered up". Let's expand our mindset here. You can still have developers create beautiful feminine silhouettes of heavy, medium and light armor without having organs exposed. It's outdated and ugly and belong in eastern mmo's.

Most of the outfits I showed from Aion they're covered up and completely appropriate. I like the outfits because they're stylish, form-fitting, and flattering, while still looking like armor. I don't care about any "boys wear blue, girls wear pink" stuff. I'm just telling you what I like on my female toons as a woman myself. I like feminine, pretty, stylish, form-flattering outfits for my characters and I won't apologize for that.

Here I'll repost the pics for anyone who hasn't seen them yet -

The thighs are a bit ugly on this second one but the rest of the set is nice.

To me, these all look like Asian interpretations of European, Neo-Edwardian Steampunk costumes.
This month's cosmetic armor seem to be shooting for gender-neutral and non-European (Moorish/Islamic) armor, to me.

Rinta

Kreed wrote: »

I would personally prefer to look like the lady on the left, but if some women prefer to look like the lady on the right - that's cool by me.

234Graph

This might sound like me having bad faith here but I'm genuinely asking, been reading the thread and there's something I'd want someone to clear up.

Feminine armor can be made without it being revealing or sexy right? Moreover, revealing clothing is not inherently feminine, so it can't really be used as a way to differentiate the femine armour from the male version which is what you lots are looking for. So what's with some of the negative rep to the female armour not being revealing enough? Practicality wise it wouldn't make sense either right?

Someone earlier said loose fitting armour, which makes more sense I think.

Now if this solely about cosmetics and not the armour then yh I understand, Practicality doesn't come into play here so I guess high heels would make sense to some extent.

Leiloni

Given how hideous this months cosmetic armor is I feel like this is a perfect time to come back to this discussion. For anyone who hasn't seen this month's armor set yet, here it is -

Chime

As a female player on this topic. We want options.

I have friends who like looking sexy af and that's okay, I personally like my armor to cover my character's body.

No boob windows.
God please give us pants without a skirt attached (I'm looking at you GUILD WARS 2)
BDO giving us the skimpiest armor possible and all I wanted was a nice set that covered more than my bits.
Why heels?? Seriously, can you imagine running in heels. Just why. Give me combat boots.
Make the armor/clothing gender neutral. Let men and women have the option of wearing either fully covered or barely covered armors.

Child Item