Protecting Our Casuals: Gear

No. What gear is available is due to Node progression.
Node progression occurs regardless of what personal gear people have.
It's not easy to progress Nodes without gear, but it's technically possible to do so.
But, Nodes have to progress in order to unlock higher tiers of gear.

Tragnar

You're stuck on a technicality that doesn't even matter.

Your premise that core progression is node progression is a false assumption that players will choose that to be the case. Every MMO in existence with group and personal progression paths show clearly that players ALWAYS choose personal above group progression

However this doesn't mean that they don't participate in both.

If gear progression wasnt tied to node progression then you would see drastically lower participation with node progression by players.

This an undeniable observation by any player that played MMO's

Node progression is part of gear progression that other players can do instead of you.

Proclaiming that node progression is core and gear progression is not is completely contradictory, because node progression in essence is one part of gear progression that is a group effort for many players

Tragnar

The progressions planned for Ashes is actually great representation of a really nice life lesson - you should first take care of yourself (gear progression) and then you can help others (node progression) and by proxy you help yourself

You can believe the Earth is flat if you wish, sure.

Dygz wrote: »

You can believe the Earth is flat if you wish, sure.

It's you that is ignoring what is right in front of you.

You have your eyes closes, hands over your ears, and you are just repeating "players will pick group progression over personal progression for the first time ever, players will pick group progression over personal progression for the first time ever".

I didn't say anything about choosing group progression. That's you, as is typical, making crap up and pretending I said it.

Tragnar

Dygz wrote: »

They might be tied to gear progress, but the core is not gear progression.
The core is Node progression. And Node progression will determine what gear and what augments and bosses are available. As well as determine events and the populations of dungeons and raids and mobs, in general.

So somebody logged into your account and wrote this?

Dude node progression is tied into gear progression in order to force players into a group play - which is good btw

No. Gear progression is tied to Node Progression.
Nodes can progress without gear progression - even though they won't. People will, of course, progress their gear.
Gear progression stalls without Node progression.
Node progression is not really a choice. Everything one does in the game contributes to Node progression.
Node progression is not synonymous with group progression. Nodes do not force group play. Nodes encourage group play. But, Nodes can progress even if everyone played solo.

Tulima

So this thread still lives huh

I think everyone agrees that the more time you put in the stronger you should be and thus more likely to win encounters. However, it does not have to be all about the gear. In EVE online, even a day-old account can do something in a PvP encounter. Low-end ships can use CC and can escape from bigger, more powerful ships. They also have better "agility" thus able to dodge attacks from bigger ships.

AoC should/will make lower gear players matter in a group fight as well. I can imagine seeing the low-gear players manning the siege engines or ballista during a siege and letting the big boys do the regular fighting. Or manning the guns/repairing/steering the ship in naval combat.

Hardcore players should beat casuals no doubt, but I believe that casuals should never feel useless in a PvP encounter instead, filling some other role.

Who should win this scenario?
This takes place 1 year after launch.

Person A has played every day since launch has played his main to max level, and acquired all his best gear. Decides to roll an alt. He has level capped his alt, but is only tier 7/10 with his gear. (made up numbers as we don't know how this works yet)

Person B has played every other day since launch only has the one character but all his gear is tier 9/10. ( Again just made up levels)

They run into each other in the wild and fight over a rare spawn.
Should person A with more experience but worse gear win
Or
Person B the guy who has played less but has more powerful gear equipped win?

Azherae

SirChancelot wrote: »

Who should win this scenario?
This takes place 1 year after launch.

Person A has played every day since launch has played his main to max level, and acquired all his best gear. Decides to roll an alt. He has level capped his alt, but is only tier 7/10 with his gear. (made up numbers as we don't know how this works yet)

Person B has played every other day since launch only has the one character but all his gear is tier 9/10. ( Again just made up levels)

They run into each other in the wild and fight over a rare spawn.
Should person A with more experience but worse gear win
Or
Person B the guy who has played less but has more powerful gear equipped win?

Optimally, you shouldn't be sure that either one wins. You shouldn't even care.

It's much more important to work out 'how Person B got the 9/10 gear' and 'whether or not the game should be rewarding the activity that led to that happening'.

Similarly, work out why Person A only has 7/10 gear even on the alt. All this stuff is extremely specific combat balance, and that's why the thread doesn't have MUCH meaning yet. You can't get upset at numbers, particularly the numbers cited, without understanding THOSE things.

If a player is used to games where getting BiS is a Slot Machine, then their perspective will almost obviously tilt toward 'no, let my skill matter'. If they are used to games where teamwork, focus, and efficient use of time are the path to 'BiS', then they might not respond to this sort of concept at all.

Which is mostly what this thread has been.

I think it's pretty clear that the alt only has 7/10 gear because the character hasn't been played long enough to acquire 8/10 gear yet.
And player B has acquired their gear the same way player A did. Just player A can move through gear progression twice as fast because they play twice as often as player B.

I mean, we could also be asking how player A is acquiring their gear.

CROW3

Dygz wrote: »

I mean, we could also be asking how player A is acquiring their gear.

Exactly, I just turned level 50 today and my buddy Dygz gave me Tier 57,000 gear - so who are we crushing today?

SirChancelot wrote: »

Who should win this scenario?
This takes place 1 year after launch.

Person A has played every day since launch has played his main to max level, and acquired all his best gear. Decides to roll an alt. He has level capped his alt, but is only tier 7/10 with his gear. (made up numbers as we don't know how this works yet)

Person B has played every other day since launch only has the one character but all his gear is tier 9/10. ( Again just made up levels)

They run into each other in the wild and fight over a rare spawn.
Should person A with more experience but worse gear win
Or
Person B the guy who has played less but has more powerful gear equipped win?

Which ever one of the two has a friend with them will win.

A friend will always beat gear and experience.

Failing that, person B is most likely to win. Experience on one class does not necessarily make you better at a different class.

Player B has more experience on the character in question than player A, and better gear as well.

Noaani wrote: »

SirChancelot wrote: »

Who should win this scenario?
This takes place 1 year after launch.

Person A has played every day since launch has played his main to max level, and acquired all his best gear. Decides to roll an alt. He has level capped his alt, but is only tier 7/10 with his gear. (made up numbers as we don't know how this works yet)

Person B has played every other day since launch only has the one character but all his gear is tier 9/10. ( Again just made up levels)

They run into each other in the wild and fight over a rare spawn.
Should person A with more experience but worse gear win
Or
Person B the guy who has played less but has more powerful gear equipped win?

Which ever one of the two has a friend with them will win.

A friend will always beat gear and experience.

Failing that, person B is most likely to win. Experience on one class does not necessarily make you better at a different class.

Player B has more experience on the character in question than player A, and better gear as well.

I could disagree here.
Player A has more experience with the game. B might have more hours logged in that class, but A has played more and a lot of the shul you can l gain over time is transferable to a new class. I mean we could even say player A is a weirdo and making an alt of the same class so all of his play time is transferable.

Either way you all have just dodged the purpose of the exercise. Should the higher experienced or geared player win?
Playing the same class.
Using the same crafted gear progression system to acquire the gear at the same rate/per level of effort.
Yes I know there are technically dozens of other variables, but I'm posing the question in an attempt to just focus on those two and magically pretend everything else is equal.

Should experience with the game and skill win?
Or should a higher tier level of gear win?
Hell, I'll accept win percentages for answers even...

Azherae

SirChancelot wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

SirChancelot wrote: »

Who should win this scenario?
This takes place 1 year after launch.

Person A has played every day since launch has played his main to max level, and acquired all his best gear. Decides to roll an alt. He has level capped his alt, but is only tier 7/10 with his gear. (made up numbers as we don't know how this works yet)

Person B has played every other day since launch only has the one character but all his gear is tier 9/10. ( Again just made up levels)

They run into each other in the wild and fight over a rare spawn.
Should person A with more experience but worse gear win
Or
Person B the guy who has played less but has more powerful gear equipped win?

Which ever one of the two has a friend with them will win.

A friend will always beat gear and experience.

Failing that, person B is most likely to win. Experience on one class does not necessarily make you better at a different class.

Player B has more experience on the character in question than player A, and better gear as well.

I could disagree here.
Player A has more experience with the game. B might have more hours logged in that class, but A has played more and a lot of the shul you can l gain over time is transferable to a new class. I mean we could even say player A is a weirdo and making an alt of the same class so all of his play time is transferable.

Either way you all have just dodged the purpose of the exercise. Should the higher experienced or geared player win?
Playing the same class.
Using the same crafted gear progression system to acquire the gear at the same rate/per level of effort.
Yes I know there are technically dozens of other variables, but I'm posing the question in an attempt to just focus on those two and magically pretend everything else is equal.

Should experience with the game and skill win?
Or should a higher tier level of gear win?
Hell, I'll accept win percentages for answers even...

Well, with that amount of qualifiers, I can definitely answer.

Mirror match, same crafted gear PROGRESSION.

Tier 7 vs Tier 9, Experience on the Tier 7 side...

My vote is that Tier 7 player squeaks it out most of the time. 6.5 to 3.5 matchup.

If you somehow duplicated all the conditions across an 8v8, and we extend the amount of experience and skill gained also to 'working together as a group', now it's basically no contest. For me, Tier 7s win 9 out of 10.

Subtract the 'practiced team synergy' from both sides and we're back to a 5:5. Gear advantages stack in group better than personal skill advantages.

My counterquestion then... does this actually tell us anything about the design?

SirChancelot wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

SirChancelot wrote: »

Who should win this scenario?
This takes place 1 year after launch.

Person A has played every day since launch has played his main to max level, and acquired all his best gear. Decides to roll an alt. He has level capped his alt, but is only tier 7/10 with his gear. (made up numbers as we don't know how this works yet)

Person B has played every other day since launch only has the one character but all his gear is tier 9/10. ( Again just made up levels)

They run into each other in the wild and fight over a rare spawn.
Should person A with more experience but worse gear win
Or
Person B the guy who has played less but has more powerful gear equipped win?

Which ever one of the two has a friend with them will win.

A friend will always beat gear and experience.

Failing that, person B is most likely to win. Experience on one class does not necessarily make you better at a different class.

Player B has more experience on the character in question than player A, and better gear as well.

I could disagree here.
Player A has more experience with the game. B might have more hours logged in that class, but A has played more and a lot of the shul you can l gain over time is transferable to a new class. I mean we could even say player A is a weirdo and making an alt of the same class so all of his play time is transferable.

Either way you all have just dodged the purpose of the exercise. Should the higher experienced or geared player win?
Playing the same class.
Using the same crafted gear progression system to acquire the gear at the same rate/per level of effort.
Yes I know there are technically dozens of other variables, but I'm posing the question in an attempt to just focus on those two and magically pretend everything else is equal.

Should experience with the game and skill win?
Or should a higher tier level of gear win?
Hell, I'll accept win percentages for answers even...

While player A may have more time in game, spending years as a tank in an MMO doesnt do all that much to prepare you to be a healer when you reroll - you are starting fro scratch.

If you want to just ask the question as it is in the last paragraph, it depends on the skill depth of the game.

Very few games increase the required skill level as they age. So, if both players have hit that plateau, then one player could have years on the other, but if they either has better gear - since they are both at that plateau, the gear wins.

Keep in mind, while a game almost never adds to the required skill level of the game, literally all MMO'sadd to the gear level they offer.

In fact, it is adding gear to the equation that separates MMORPG's from other online games (along with a persistent world). Remove or lessen gear from the equation, and we may as well be playing an FPS game.

Azherae wrote: »

SirChancelot wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

SirChancelot wrote: »

Who should win this scenario?
This takes place 1 year after launch.

Person A has played every day since launch has played his main to max level, and acquired all his best gear. Decides to roll an alt. He has level capped his alt, but is only tier 7/10 with his gear. (made up numbers as we don't know how this works yet)

Person B has played every other day since launch only has the one character but all his gear is tier 9/10. ( Again just made up levels)

They run into each other in the wild and fight over a rare spawn.
Should person A with more experience but worse gear win
Or
Person B the guy who has played less but has more powerful gear equipped win?

Which ever one of the two has a friend with them will win.

A friend will always beat gear and experience.

Failing that, person B is most likely to win. Experience on one class does not necessarily make you better at a different class.

Player B has more experience on the character in question than player A, and better gear as well.

I could disagree here.
Player A has more experience with the game. B might have more hours logged in that class, but A has played more and a lot of the shul you can l gain over time is transferable to a new class. I mean we could even say player A is a weirdo and making an alt of the same class so all of his play time is transferable.

Either way you all have just dodged the purpose of the exercise. Should the higher experienced or geared player win?
Playing the same class.
Using the same crafted gear progression system to acquire the gear at the same rate/per level of effort.
Yes I know there are technically dozens of other variables, but I'm posing the question in an attempt to just focus on those two and magically pretend everything else is equal.

Should experience with the game and skill win?
Or should a higher tier level of gear win?
Hell, I'll accept win percentages for answers even...

Well, with that amount of qualifiers, I can definitely answer.

Mirror match, same crafted gear PROGRESSION.

Tier 7 vs Tier 9, Experience on the Tier 7 side...

My vote is that Tier 7 player squeaks it out most of the time. 6.5 to 3.5 matchup.

If you somehow duplicated all the conditions across an 8v8, and we extend the amount of experience and skill gained also to 'working together as a group', now it's basically no contest. For me, Tier 7s win 9 out of 10.

Subtract the 'practiced team synergy' from both sides and we're back to a 5:5. Gear advantages stack in group better than personal skill advantages.

My counterquestion then... does this actually tell us anything about the design?

Thank you. That's an excellent answer.
Tell us anything about design? No. We're all just spit balling here. But what the topic of this thread means to me is where does that balance of power shift with regards to gear. How much weight is put behind 'I just have higher quality gear' versus I know how to play the game well. Is two tier levels of difference enough? If it was 3 levels would you lean towards gear? How big of a stat gap do you want I geared players to have over low gear players?

I don't really have an answer, just thinking out loud. I could argue both sides probably.
I guess my hope is that it never feels hopelessly one sided due to gear alone. There should always be some chance of a skilled less gear player to win or at least make the other person work for it.

Noaani wrote: »

SirChancelot wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

SirChancelot wrote: »

Who should win this scenario?
This takes place 1 year after launch.

Person A has played every day since launch has played his main to max level, and acquired all his best gear. Decides to roll an alt. He has level capped his alt, but is only tier 7/10 with his gear. (made up numbers as we don't know how this works yet)

Person B has played every other day since launch only has the one character but all his gear is tier 9/10. ( Again just made up levels)

They run into each other in the wild and fight over a rare spawn.
Should person A with more experience but worse gear win
Or
Person B the guy who has played less but has more powerful gear equipped win?

Which ever one of the two has a friend with them will win.

A friend will always beat gear and experience.

Failing that, person B is most likely to win. Experience on one class does not necessarily make you better at a different class.

Player B has more experience on the character in question than player A, and better gear as well.

I could disagree here.
Player A has more experience with the game. B might have more hours logged in that class, but A has played more and a lot of the shul you can l gain over time is transferable to a new class. I mean we could even say player A is a weirdo and making an alt of the same class so all of his play time is transferable.

Either way you all have just dodged the purpose of the exercise. Should the higher experienced or geared player win?
Playing the same class.
Using the same crafted gear progression system to acquire the gear at the same rate/per level of effort.
Yes I know there are technically dozens of other variables, but I'm posing the question in an attempt to just focus on those two and magically pretend everything else is equal.

Should experience with the game and skill win?
Or should a higher tier level of gear win?
Hell, I'll accept win percentages for answers even...

While player A may have more time in game, spending years as a tank in an MMO doesnt do all that much to prepare you to be a healer when you reroll - you are starting fro scratch.

If you want to just ask the question as it is in the last paragraph, it depends on the skill depth of the game.

Very few games increase the required skill level as they age. So, if both players have hit that plateau, then one player could have years on the other, but if they either has better gear - since they are both at that plateau, the gear wins.

Keep in mind, while a game almost never adds to the required skill level of the game, literally all MMO'sadd to the gear level they offer.

In fact, it is adding gear to the equation that separates MMORPG's from other online games (along with a persistent world). Remove or lessen gear from the equation, and we may as well be playing an FPS game.

To say they are on the same skill plateau would be claiming they have both achieved perfect gameplay. There's always room for improvements. But either way, I pretty much said player B hasn't hit that plateau yet by saying A has more skill.