Discussion about grinds

After having a discussion with someone on our Discord, it got me thinking about what our community wants grind to be like in Ashes of Creation.

I've got some questions for you all:
- What are your definitions of a good grind?
- What MMO had a good grind system and what made it good?
- How would you want grind to be implemented in the game?

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Ludullu

For me it was always the reward of my actions and constant pressure of potential pvp. If I came to some location to drop an item from a mob, I'm completely fine with farming that same location for several days if I get to fight other people for the same location. And once I drop that item, I'm freaking ecstatic. But usually, the longer I farmed the location, the more excited I'd be. In other words, I guess I'm somewhat of a masochist myself.

With the game in question being Lineage 2, obviously.

tautau

Take what @NiKr said, type it again, and sign it TauTau.

Ashgan

Good grinds are ones where you make progress, input leading to output, example would be crafting where you gather resources that after gathering enough you can make into something.
Bad grinds are anything that just relies on pure RNG like certain Korean MMO upgrade systems or loot drops. They rely on that dopamine hit once you get that item but overall it's a shit system.

Azherae

In groups, I can accept any amount of dynamic grind, it doesn't even feel like a grind, to me, at that point.

Honing skills, timings, spacings, coordination, synergies... it is only 'bad' when it becomes easy, but if it becomes easy, then you just go up a difficulty tier in terms of enemies.

If it's 'pull these enemies to this spot and wait for your abilities to AoE them down' then I can stand it for about 10-20 minutes at a time, and after that I start thinking about how it could be better or how to make it more interesting.

It's really bad for my roleplay, too. Without unexpected things happening to affect the rhythm, my RP suffers terribly, and I end up disengaged.

This isn't an answer relative to 'amount of hours it takes to level' because I'll 'grind' like this even in games without any system of leveling, if it's dynamic enough. Just make sure to take breaks (on the scale of days, not the short ones while playing) to bring the feeling back.

Adding random PvP to this generally makes it better, but most games don't design or balance that well enough for me to care.

ogre

Imo runescape unironically has some of the best “grind” in the genre…not that such a type of grind would necessarily fit a game like this. Hopefully crafting and gathering skills take a long time to “max”. I also hope that the drop tables of at least some enemies have some extremely rare drops, whether it be materials or some sort of usable gear/items, love that sort of thing, otherwise it can feel extremely lacklustre killing mobs imo. The more jank sidegrades and situationally useful utility items available to players the more fun the game is.

Dygz

Grinds cannot be good.
It's either bad enough to feel like a grind or else you are just doing fun stuff.
Grinding is doing the same tedious, repeitive task over and over and over again for hours, just for a little bit of xp.

Quests exist so that we have stories backing what we're doing and the quest rewards should compensateus well enough that completing each quest feels worthwhile. Rather than just hunting mobs or picking flowers because they exist and doing so gives us a tiny bit of xp.

Grind should not be "implemented".
Technically, it should be possible to gain tiny bits of xp without byhunting and gathering without associated quests. But there should be plenty of quests and tasks that impact the world sfficiently enough that we are focused on changing the world and gaining considerable chunks of xp or sizeable rewards that we won't choose to grind bits of xp without significant rewards.

Ludullu

Dygz wrote: »

Grind should not be "implemented".
Technically, it should be possible to gain tiny bits of xp without byhunting and gathering without associated quests. But there should be plenty of quests and tasks that impact the world sfficiently enough that we are focused on changing the world and gaining considerable chunks of xp or sizeable rewards that we won't choose to grind bits of xp without significant rewards.

But what do you do when those quests end? Or when you're blocked by node progress and have outlvled any current mobs or quests or even your chosen artisan branch. Should there be something for people who have done all those things and want more or should it be the FF14 way of "play the game to its current fullest and go touch grass"?

JustVine

deadmansprice wrote: »

I've got some questions for you all:
- What are your definitions of a good grind?

If it's a good grind I'm only going to remember the good part.

- What MMO had a good grind system and what made it good?

FFXI - required full group coordination when fighting at level targets, required more than just bodily participation even when fighting lower level targets in group. The tactical points system really incentivized paying attention and trying to get your group coordination down even when the fight wasn't particularly hard. Since enemies also had access to tp, it made them more responsive to group pressure and let rudimentary ai lift far above it's weight class. https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Tactical_Points here's the full explanation of what they are if you are really interested.

- How would you want grind to be implemented in the game?

Well golly deadmansprice aren't you asking the tough question today. Grind is a basic necessity of any mmo or becomes a different genre (monster hunter). Make your mobs mean, responsive, adaptive, and smart. Make your battle system require tactical thought and coordination with a high skill ceiling. I genuinely think TP attacks are the way to most effectively achieve this in basically any game. I'm hoping 'proc' attacks have a similar place in Ashes.

Ashgan

Dygz wrote: »

Grinds cannot be good.
It's either bad enough to feel like a grind or else you are just doing fun stuff.

Everything is a grind if you do it repeatedly and doing something long enough will always get tedious eventually even if it is the most fun thing ever turning it into a grind. So in that regard there are good and bad grinds just not in terms of fun or not but what makes them more tolerable.

CROW3

I know everyone has a slightly different definition of ‘grind’.

A grind for me has always been slogging through mobs to get that last three bars of xp to the next level. I don’t think that needs to be a planned leveling strategy. I’m hoping there will be enough content and xp gain from the systems around the node to help keep the need for grind to a minimum.

I’m sure there will be players that will walk into the wilderness swinging at everything in their path like a lawnmower to gain levels. WoW was certainly like that to level toons via LFG.

Tyranthraxus

Dygz wrote: »

Grinds cannot be good.
It's either bad enough to feel like a grind or else you are just doing fun stuff.
Grinding is doing the same tedious, repeitive task over and over and over again for hours, just for a little bit of xp.

Quests exist so that we have stories backing what we're doing and the quest rewards should compensateus well enough that completing each quest feels worthwhile. Rather than just hunting mobs or picking flowers because they exist and doing so gives us a tiny bit of xp.

Grind should not be "implemented".
Technically, it should be possible to gain tiny bits of xp without byhunting and gathering without associated quests. But there should be plenty of quests and tasks that impact the world sfficiently enough that we are focused on changing the world and gaining considerable chunks of xp or sizeable rewards that we won't choose to grind bits of xp without significant rewards.

If there is no creative alternative to obtain what one is after? I'm THEN okay with a grind; It should be a chore-alternative means to an end that otherwise didn't pan out with the creative means that only offered a small chance of obtain....ance(?); If the thing that offered a small chance of success was fun but didn't pay out, why not offer alternative, less-attractive means by which to obtain something? Both offer a reward.

It's not a universal alternative; some things should ONLY be obtained by chance and risk - but especially low-level or generic stuff might benefit from different means to an end. Either way, a player can be happy about feeling like they earned something, be it by encountering the rare/occasional bit of luck, or by sheer determination.

Frostshot1

Good grinds are ones where your progress is measurable. So you can see that your hard work is making progress towards your desired goal. As already stated in someone else's post, BAD grinds are RNG based. Anything that relies completely on RNG tends to annoy me. Sure loot drops are RNG but were talking grinds which are usually not just about a loot drops. We hope.

For example Lost Arks RNG version of time gating content is crap. By this I mean their honing system.

Dygz

NiKr wrote: »

But what do you do when those quests end? Or when you're blocked by node progress and have outlvled any current mobs or quests or even your chosen artisan branch. Should there be something for people who have done all those things and want more or should it be the FF14 way of "play the game to its current fullest and go touch grass"?

That's why Ashes has Node progression, Social Org progression and Racial Progression, in addition to Artisan progression and Events.
Quests should not come to an end. Especially, not merely because Adventurer Level is maxed.
I don't know how you get "blocked" by Node progression. There are tons of Nodes on each server.
You can't do all of the things in Ashes. Ashes is not a static game.

Dygz

Tyranthraxus wrote: »

If there is no creative alternative to obtain what one is after? I'm THEN okay with a grind; It should be a chore-alternative means to an end that otherwise didn't pan out with the creative means that only offered a small chance of obtain....ance(?); If the thing that offered a small chance of success was fun but didn't pay out, why not offer alternative, less-attractive means by which to obtain something? Both offer a reward.

It's not a universal alternative; some things should ONLY be obtained by chance and risk - but especially low-level or generic stuff might benefit from different means to an end. Either way, a player can be happy about feeling like they earned something, be it by encountering the rare/occasional bit of luck, or by sheer determination.

I didn't really understand what you wrote, but...
It kinda sounds to me like you said, "If I have to eat fish eyes to survive because that's all there is, I will eat fish eyes."
And my response is, "Getting to a point where all there is to eat is fish eyes is not a good thing."
If something is fun, it's not a grind.

Ludullu

Dygz wrote: »

That's why Ashes has Node progression, Social Org progression and Racial Progression, in addition to Artisan progression and Events.
Quests should not come to an end. Especially, not merely because Adventurer Level is maxed.
I don't know how you get "blocked" by Node progression. There are tons of Nodes on each server.
You can't do all of the things in Ashes. Ashes is not a static game.

Intrepid intends to have 45 days of leveling 4-6h a day. Most likely at least some of that time is calculated with Nodes advancing slower than people's lvls.

So considering that, if a person plays 16h a day instead of 4-6, what will they do once they outlvl node's mobs?
They'd probably go do their artisan and social stuff, right? That'll most likely also be blocked by node progress, so there's a ceiling on that progress too.

So the player will go do random menial quests, right? And if those are semi-randomly generated, how can they not become grindy to a person who's done everything else the game has to offer at that point while still wanting more content? Or do you think Intrepid can somehow make enough unique content that a super hardcore player will never run out of it?

Cause I personally don't see how that's in any way feasible.

George_Black

For me the starting point of grind has to be at the backdrop of open world pvp, without instances, in order for every day to be an unpredictable adventure. Levels 40-50 should equal 1-39 + class quests in terms of gameplay duration. The grind should rly be felt at mid-high lvs.

I would like the combat class lv up to be a grind, in which players can:
Solo or duo kill mobs with low HP (and mb high dmg) that dont reward too much xp.

Form full or 5man parties to go into areas and buildings were tough, swarming mobs reward the best xp, with very low chance for whole item drops.

Take on open world raidbosses for the best time/xp ratio with 50-50 chances of whole item loots.

Material gathering should also be a grind. But ideally, I see clusters of good raw materials spawning in areas with tough challenging mobs.
So let's say one day your guild wants to helo mages and archers craft bows and staves. The group with a lumberjack should venture in a tough area with good high quality wood materials. The next day they go with the blacksmith the group should venture in a different area for ore.

Such a grind system isnt a grind. It's a live game where you cooporate with other guild members, encounter strangers and form friendships or rivalries.
Not like todays mmos.

Ashgan

NiKr wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

That's why Ashes has Node progression, Social Org progression and Racial Progression, in addition to Artisan progression and Events.
Quests should not come to an end. Especially, not merely because Adventurer Level is maxed.
I don't know how you get "blocked" by Node progression. There are tons of Nodes on each server.
You can't do all of the things in Ashes. Ashes is not a static game.

Intrepid intends to have 45 days of leveling 4-6h a day. Most likely at least some of that time is calculated with Nodes advancing slower than people's lvls.

So considering that, if a person plays 16h a day instead of 4-6, what will they do once they outlvl node's mobs?
They'd probably go do their artisan and social stuff, right? That'll most likely also be blocked by node progress, so there's a ceiling on that progress too.

So the player will go do random menial quests, right? And if those are semi-randomly generated, how can they not become grindy to a person who's done everything else the game has to offer at that point while still wanting more content? Or do you think Intrepid can somehow make enough unique content that a super hardcore player will never run out of it?

Cause I personally don't see how that's in any way feasible.

I would assume you would start doing more repeatable things like protecting caravans.

Songcaller

Grinding started to collect resources from mobs. Farming then started to collect stuff from bosses.

In Ashes, you will grind/Farm the same way. You just won't level from mob xp.

One dude spent years on MoP just killing boars at 1xp per kill. His panda toon was trapped because the player wanted to remain neutral lol.

Dygz

NiKr wrote: »

Intrepid intends to have 45 days of leveling 4-6h a day. Most likely at least some of that time is calculated with Nodes advancing slower than people's lvls.

What you mean is 45 days to max Adventure Level.
Adventurer is not the only form of progression in the game.

NiKr wrote: »

So considering that, if a person plays 16h a day instead of 4-6, what will they do once they outlvl node's mobs?

At max Adventurer Level, you continue to work on Node progression, Node defense, Racial progression, Social Org Progression, Events, Government control, etc...
Attaing gear with the stats you want. Exploring the new content that appears as Nodes rise and fall.

NiKr wrote: »

So the player will go do random menial quests, right? And if those are semi-randomly generated, how can they not become grindy to a person who's done everything else the game has to offer at that point while still wanting more content? Or do you think Intrepid can somehow make enough unique content that a super hardcore player will never run out of it?

Why would quests be menial just because you are at max Adventurer level>
Why would the quests be semi-randomly generated. Quests and tasks are generated based on how player actions impact the world. Onecharacter cannot do everything in the world.
Ashes is not a static world.
The purpose of the Node system is so that players don't run out of content. If the Node system fails to do that, then Ashes is basically just another EQ or ArcheAge or BDO.

NiKr wrote: »

Cause I personally don't see how that's in any way feasible.

Then...you don't understand the game design.

Protecting Caravans starts before max level Adventurer and continues indefinitely as the Castles and Nodes you support rise and fall.

Balanz

Based on my experience a couple decades ago, grinding was killing mobs to gain experience or drops, or repeating combines to raise a trade skill.

What made them enjoyable was first, finding a solution to the grind that worked for me, and second the achievement at the end of that grind.

Finding a solution includes thing like finding a camp or area, and mastering the tactics to grind there, or acquiring the materials required for the trade skill grind, along with the skill necessary to get to that point.

As a Magician in EverQuest, I was an accomplished soloer, as well as a grouper and raider, but trade skills were definitely more a matter of soloing.

Ashes can improve on the experience grind by discouraging soloing, and Ashes economy should make trade skills a social activity. Farming drops should likewise be subject to the tension of PvP.

So basically, grinding in Ashes should be primarily a social activity, so it should feel a lot more like playing and a lot less like work.

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