Discussion about grinds

No. Grinding with friends is not really more fun than grinding solo. Grinding is a grind.
Questing with friends is fun. Farming with friends can be OK.

Dygz wrote: »

What you mean is 45 days to max Adventure Level.
Adventurer is not the only form of progression in the game.

Dygz, I'm talking exactly about the first few weeks when no other nodes have even gotten to lvl 5-6. Let's say I'm playing 18h/d cause I'm hardcore like that. Nodes level up waaay slower than my adventure lvl or any other content that is present within a lvl 2-3 node.

I've done any and all unique quests that are in the reasonable vicinity from me (and I doubt that going across the world will all of a sudden provide me with more unique quests that would fill up my gametime).

I've leveled up all my possible artisan professions to their max, or at least to a point that requires higher lvl content that comes with higher lvl nodes.

I've done all the social org stuff, because it too requires higher lvl nodes.

Castle sieges are nowhere close because people are underlvled and are just getting used to the game and node sieges are too expensive, considering that we've only gotten a few lvl 4 (if any), and in the current alleged design there's a 21 day ban on sieging lvl3 nodes too.

All that I'm left with, content-wise, are caravans. And caravans are just running back and forth between nodes. And imo there's a fair chance that caravans won't even be run often enough to support a 18h/d playtime. But even if there is enough of them, that to me seems like a grind, because it's a repeated same task.

So again, how can a player like that avoid grind? Is it impossible or do you just not consider that kind of repeated task a grind?

My perspectives in games...
Grinding: doing a repetitive task because it's required to get to the next step in any endeavour.
Farming: doing a repetitive task because I want to.

Some have expressed the joy of getting a reward out of their grind, like a random drop. I don't. For me it has always felt as a relief of no longer having to do that stupid/boring thing. The "reward", when I got it, felt more like a reminder of my misery. I had moved on before I could move on. This is, in part, why I just can't care about loot and gear: too much hassle, too much time wasted.

How many Trolls do you need to kill in Strangletorn Vale to get 15 ears? Between 45 to 48.
How many time did we have to repeat that dungeon in WAR for our tank to get all his pieces of gear? Twice a week for a little over a month. The rest of us got all our stuff in 2 weeks but his refused to drop. Group of 6, not a raid.

I'd rather have an "easy" access to gear that can degrade and must be re-acquired once ruined than having to grind endlessly after an indestructible item (that will get obsolete at some time anyway).

Percimes wrote: »

I'd rather have an "easy" access to gear that can degrade and must be re-acquired once ruined than having to grind endlessly after an indestructible item (that will get obsolete at some time anyway).

Didn't you just describe your own definition of grind?
"Grinding: doing a repetitive task because it's required to get to the next step in any endeavor."

Doing an easy task over and over just to upkeep the item that you need in order to progress.

If getting a new sword takes me 5 minutes, not really. Even if I have to get a new one every 3 weeks.

I'll add that grind is unavoidable to some degree. There will always be things I don't enjoy 100%, but that are still part what's required for me to get to the next step of whatever I'm doing. In moderation it's not bad, but if I feel forced to do something I don't enjoy too much, I'll just stop and find an alternative.

Looks at Chewy
No rewards is worth this!

Percimes wrote: »

If getting a new sword takes me 5 minutes, not really. Even if I have to get a new one every 3 weeks.

That would be some shitty gear system imo. But we have no clue about what Ashes will have, so who knows, maybe that'll be it.

NiKr wrote: »

Percimes wrote: »

If getting a new sword takes me 5 minutes, not really. Even if I have to get a new one every 3 weeks.

That would be some shitty gear system imo. But we have no clue about what Ashes will have, so who knows, maybe that'll be it.

Well, I don't expect entering a player store to be an epic dungeon kind of experience. I look at it more or less as it was in Star Wars Galaxies.

NiKr wrote: »

Dygz, I'm talking exactly about the first few weeks when no other nodes have even gotten to lvl 5-6. Let's say I'm playing 18h/d cause I'm hardcore like that. Nodes level up waaay slower than my adventure lvl or any other content that is present within a lvl 2-3 node.

Yes. And the world has tons of Nodes. Which everyone will be trying to progress.
I don't know how you think your Adventurer is going to be reaching max level without max level mobs and without max level gear that cannot be unlocked yet because the highest Nodes are only Stage 3.

NiKr wrote: »

I've done any and all unique quests that are in the reasonable vicinity from me (and I doubt that going across the world will all of a sudden provide me with more unique quests that would fill up my gametime).

What you doubt does not necessarily conform with reality.
Different Node Types in different regions run by different racial populations offer different quests - as dictated by the buildings and services each Node builds. So, you will be working to get buildings and services constructed that will unlock better mobs for you to fight and for better gear to unlock.

NiKr wrote: »

I've leveled up all my possible artisan professions to their max, or at least to a point that requires higher lvl content that comes with higher lvl nodes.

That's not possible.

NiKr wrote: »

I've done all the social org stuff, because it too requires higher lvl nodes.

That's also not possble.

NiKr wrote: »

Castle sieges are nowhere close because people are underlvled and are just getting used to the game and node sieges are too expensive, considering that we've only gotten a few lvl 4 (if any), and in the current alleged design there's a 21 day ban on sieging lvl3 nodes too.

I don't know what that means. You mean players have not yet taken over a Castle from the Ancients, yet, but you don't want to try to Siege a Castle??
Why would be people be underleveled and what level are you assuming players need to be to remove Ancients from the Castle?

NiKr wrote: »

All that I'm left with, content-wise, are caravans. And caravans are just running back and forth between nodes. And imo there's a fair chance that caravans won't even be run often enough to support a 18h/d playtime. But even if there is enough of them, that to me seems like a grind, because it's a repeated same task.

LMAO
That is another absurd assumption on your part.

NiKr wrote: »

So again, how can a player like that avoid grind? Is it impossible or do you just not consider that kind of repeated task a grind?

Grind is when you do the same menial task over and over again for minimal rewards.
Like killing mobs without any quests associated or harvesting without any quests/tasks associated with it.
So, no, Caravan raids would not be a grind. Could be that acquiring the materials to place on a Caravan is a grind.
If you think Caravan raids are a grind, you won't be playing Ashes for more than a few weeks anyways.

JustVine

NiKr wrote: »

Percimes wrote: »

I'd rather have an "easy" access to gear that can degrade and must be re-acquired once ruined than having to grind endlessly after an indestructible item (that will get obsolete at some time anyway).

Didn't you just describe your own definition of grind?
"Grinding: doing a repetitive task because it's required to get to the next step in any endeavor."

Doing an easy task over and over just to upkeep the item that you need in order to progress.

Oh I guess I have a much different concept of what grinding is than some other people here.

Grinding to me is 'any form of content in a game that isn't directly tied to the most rewarding or most challenging content that is still required for progression or gaining economic power.'

'Doing a repetitive task' definitely comes into play but I would not, for example, call 'having to fight this dungeon boss over and over again to get best in slot' equivalent to the type of 'grind' that comes to mind when I think of 'grinding'. Since first of all, a good boss design should make it such that it doesn't feel that repetitive, and second of all it should be 'the point of the game.' Bosses are supposed to be the spectacle show pieces that push you and your team to the limit. To call them 'grinding' just because you have to repeat them to make some form of advancement is not something I can agree with.

Things like bosses, raids, and sieges are top end content no matter what part of the gear plateau you are at. It can be repetitive if designed poorly, or if you lack incentives to specialize, skill up, and make choices. It still isn't 'the grind' in my opinion though. It's just 'poorly made top end content'.

Where as I think we can both agree 'fighting a bunch of mobs for mats for gear repair or crafting' is definitively grinding. I think what Percimes was trying to get at here is to them what makes a grind 'good' is that it's 'something one can specialize in and get a unique result as opposed to other possible grinds that could be specialized in to get a different unique result.'

And that is actually why I think making enemies more dynamic and challenging, and making the players actions effect the mobs responsiveness in some way is key to making a grind good. It stops feeling like filler and feels like an actual activity. Add a mechanic where you get to clear slightly faster by fighting the mob skillfully and now we are 'cooking with gas' as the kids say.

For gathering otoh, something I think we both can also agree is literally 'grinding, artisan profession edition' PvP works as a way of making encounters unpredictable and it creates a similar effect. Now gathering is an activity you have to gear and prepare for and have reasons to bring friends along. Where as in most other games it is just 'go to point a and press x for a bit. Wait on your character animation to finish and repeat until you need to move on to point b.' If you don't want to fight you are still incentivized to gear and prepare to avoid said fights and minimize losses.

I think making mobs 'trash' and making pve activities 'inherently lacking in player to player conflict out in the field' are some of the core mistakes in today's mmo design that make people bored with the genre.

Dygz wrote: »

Yes. And the world has tons of Nodes. Which everyone will be trying to progress.
I don't know how you think your Adventurer is going to be reaching max level without max level mobs and without max level gear that cannot be unlocked yet because the highest Nodes are only Stage 3.

I'm not saying I'll be max lvl. I'm saying I'm gonna hit a soft cap of leveling at which point I'd need higher lvled nodes in order to level up w/o grinding the same low lvl mobs over and over.

Dygz wrote: »

Different Node Types in different regions run by different racial populations offer different quests - as dictated by the buildings and services each Node builds. So, you will be working to get buildings and services constructed that will unlock better mobs for you to fight and for better gear to unlock.

Ok, I decided to build up those buildings in order to get more unique quests outside my node. Those buildings will require dozens if not hundreds (if not even more) of resources. Getting all of that would either require hundreds of people (as it should) or hundreds of hours of grinding to get those resources by one person (me in this example). So we're back to grinding to go further.

Dygz wrote: »

That's not possible.
That's also not possble.

Again, I'm talking about a soft cap on those things where I'd need higher lvl nodes in order to progress w/o grinding. And as I stated above, in order to push for that kind of thing I'd have to grind.

Dygz wrote: »

I don't know what that means. You mean players have not yet taken over a Castle from the Ancients, yet, but you don't want to try to Siege a Castle??
Why would be people be underleveled and what level are you assuming players need to be to remove Ancients from the Castle?

Again, I'm talking about the first weeks of the release. 13th reference on this page https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Castle_sieges
Guilds will have to level up quite a bit because it's gonna be very difficult to get the castle from NPCs.

Dygz wrote: »

LMAO
That is another absurd assumption on your part.

Again, I'm talking about meaningful non-grindy content. I will not believe that Intrepid can manage to create literal hundreds of unique quests within the first, say, 30 lvls of a character, until Intrepid proves me otherwise. And if they manage to prove me wrong - I'll only be super happy.

Dygz wrote: »

Grind is when you do the same menial task over and over again for minimal rewards.
Like killing mobs without any quests associated or harvesting without any quests/tasks associated with it.
So, no, Caravan raids would not be a grind. Could be that acquiring the materials to place on a Caravan is a grind.
If you think Caravan raids are a grind, you won't be playing Ashes for more than a few weeks anyways.

I'd prefer to defend caravans instead of attacking them, so my side would potentially be less exciting. But even on the off chance that there's enough people running caravans at lvls 20-30, enough people attacking/defending them instead of just leveling up or doing artisan shit, and enough of both of those to fill up 18h of gameplay each and every day with quality pvp where one side (a hardcore player) doesn't just annihilate another side (just normal people who play 2-3h a day and have lowish tier of gear) - repetition of the same action of going from one node to the other could be seen as grindy.

Again, as I've stated in my very first post in this thread, none of the things I'm trying to explain would be considered grind in my eyes. I've grown up on farming the same damn mob for over a week in L2 before getting enough resources for a craft (not even talking about full gear drop here). And I liked that and I'd like that if it was in Ashes.

What I'm trying to argue here is that it's nigh on impossible to completely avoid grind-like activities in an mmo. Yet you're trying to claim that no grind should be present in the game.

Ashes always has progression for people to do. You can't reach a soft cap where there is nothing to do.
Nodes reach Stage 3 within a few days. And then you start working on the quests and tasks that help you construct the buildings and the services you want as the Nodes progress to Stage 4. As well as continue with Social Org and Racial progression and Artisan progression, etc.
Hitting a soft cap in Adventurer level - even if that were possible - does not create a soft cap in all the other forms of progression.

If you refuse to believe stuff, further conversation is pointless.
You will have to play to be convinced.

Dygz wrote: »

If you refuse to believe stuff, further conversation is pointless.
You will have to play to be convinced.

True, and I hope I am.

Now we just need to figure out what we can use as bribes to get people into the Alpha 2 test before Autumn 2022.

Cookies always seem to work out for the dark side. I'd go with those.

Bracu

what is a grind? for me it means "doing something over and over again until you get that 1 thing you are looking for, that normally is not very easily achivable"

This can be Gathering, Hunting, PvP, Cavarans,Crafting really any part of the game which makes it intesesting as it got so many opportunities.

But why do players spend so much time on achiving that goal?
i think its a combination out of personal goals and prestige or some kind of points/currency.

What defines a good grind for me?
Something really unique that shows other players how invested i am/was
or something really useful or expensive

and if its a very monotone or low% grind, its nice to spark it up with an random victory down the line
lets say you want to grind Wolfes for a 0.2 % drop and after 10 hours you get a nice title saying "Wolf Slayer"
even if you didnt get your item yet it still provides a little victory

Vaknar

For me personally (and I'm not sure why) when I think of grinding, my immediate thought goes to harvesting for crafting. Going out and 'grinding' for herbs, pelts, ore, etc.

I'm not sure if I can think of another MMO that I felt did this aspect of grinding resources perfectly... I feel each that I've played has done well and not well with this.

For me, I think open-world PvP will create an element to grinding resources that makes it more engaging