Discussion about grinds

After having a discussion with someone on our Discord, it got me thinking about what our community wants grind to be like in Ashes of Creation.

I've got some questions for you all:
- What are your definitions of a good grind?
- What MMO had a good grind system and what made it good?
- How would you want grind to be implemented in the game?

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Comments

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

One day, L2 players will understand that nothing in that game outside of PvP is anything special. It is the basic level of the original EQ, but with PvP added. All MMO's since EQ have taken that same basic formula and added other things to it - in the case of EQ2 it added an entire layer of PvE content - as well as combat system - complexity on top of the basic EQ game.

From the little amount of other mmos I've played (if I'm remembering them correctly cause for some it's been years), only BDO had big grouping of mobs, though even there you had to pull most of them yourself cause only a few would agro right away. FF14 was just a solo experience so barely any social agro at all. B&S was kinda the same. WoW mainly had long agro, but even with mobs from the same type/faction you could still pull singular mobs from a group just by slowly approaching them.

I'm not saying that L2 is end all and be all. It was just the main mmo I've played so I'm literally stating the things I liked from it. The same way a WoW-main would do when describing things they liked in WoW. The things I've stated also were in contrast to the system Azhrae described, which is why I said that I preferred the system I was more familiar with, but ultimately didn't care what Intrepid would go with.

I couldn't give fewer shits if L2 stole all its mechanics or somehow invented them all on the spot. I'm sure that the things people like in EQ came from somewhere too. If I'd played EQ instead of L2 back when I got into mmos, I'd be giving examples from it in just the same way I'm doing with L2. And some other "akshually" person would say that EQ's features were taken from UO or some other shit. Which in turn was inspired by some ancient MUDs which came from D&D which stemmed from fantasy novels which came from irl escapism of some medieval dudes who had a bit too much to drink and got a vivid imagination. And all it started with a big bang HEY

Noaani wrote: »

Even EQ has surpassed L2 in terms of all non-PvP aspects of the game (and some would argue the PvP aspects as well) - but that will happen when a game has 28 actual and full expansions (how many has L2 had in it's life again?).

40. It has had 40 updates in its currently still existing life.

JamesSunderland

Noaani's absolute "non-personal experience based" disdain and disregard towards L2 systems/concepts other than PvP, made me make my question in the Q&A thread of the next livestream.
I wonder what inspirations from Lineage 2 other than the enchanting and the focus on non-instanced dungeons Ashes might have to make Noaani even more mad about L2

George_Black

Noaani wrote: »

Honestly, every time an L2 player says "L2 did this" in regards to something that is not PvP, I roll my eyes because the thing they are gushing about is literally a base level aspect of MMO's.

Yeah... Im gonna call you out on your ** again. In this thread, which is about grind, nobody said anything about "L2 did this". Nikr said "I am used to any grind because I played L2" and Sunderland who said "all drops/mats in L2 were usefull" did not give you reason to go on yet another bitter rant about L2 being shit.

You constructed a "hey I never played L2 but I want to be heard and taken seriously" narrative that has nothing to do with the topic. Just a weird personal campaign against that game. Offtopic as usual with long paragraphs of pseudo-intellect.
Once more... a game you never played, and you somehow feel left out of, yet you keep bringing it up.

George_Black

Lol... not only that, but prior to that rant, your contribution to the thread was also offtopic saying with way too many words, w0w eq and eso succees because pvp is isolated. Cool story; what does that have to do, if not with this topic, AoC?

Noaani

JamesSunderland wrote: »

Noaani's absolute "non-personal experience based" disdain and disregard towards L2 systems/concepts other than PvP, made me make my question in the Q&A thread of the next livestream.

Disrain and disregard?

L2 was the among the best PvP MMORPG's of the early 2000's. In fact, it was either the best, or the second best (EVE being the other - no other MMO's of the 2000's came close).

That isn't disdain or disregard, that is just a realistic view.

Every other aspect of the MMO genre has significantly better examples.
Want a better crafting game? SWG.
Better economy? EVE.
Better PvE? EQ2.

Storytelling, lore, graphics, itemization, class design, race design, these are all things that have significantly better examples from contemporary MMO's. However, L2 was the definitive fantasy PvP MMO of the 2000's.

Which part of the above do you disagree with?

---

I find it really funny that you use non-instanced dungeons as a talking point above though - one of the things that separated EQ2 from WoW was the fact that EQ2 had a LOT of non-instanced dungeons. For most of the time I played it, it had more non-instanced dungeon content than instanced dungeon content. The non-instanced raid content EQ2 had was my favorite content of any type, from any game, in any genre I have ever played.

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

40. It has had 40 updates in its currently still existing life.

I didn't ask for updates, I asked for full expansions.

If you want to talk "updates" (which I take to include new content or systems and not just bug fixes and such), EQ has well over 250 of them - on top of 28 full expansions.

I mean, the game has been out for 22 years, and they are working on the long term goal of adding a new UI engine to the game at some point in the next few years as an update (but not as an expansion).

Also, the 29th expansion is in development. What is the L2 development roadmap looking like right now?

Songcaller

I want a magess robe like Eq's mascot maiden in Ashes

Songcaller

Here she is. As a female toon player the image hooked immediately.

Noaani

Neurath wrote: »

I want a magess robe like Eq's mascot maiden in Ashes

I'll take a character with the voice of EQ2's original male "mascot" - can't beat Christopher Lee voice acting, imo.

Songcaller

Pixels are cheap. Voices can be expensive lol

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

40. It has had 40 updates in its currently still existing life.

I didn't ask for updates, I asked for full expansions.

Every update added content. Some were bigger some were smaller. Did EQ's expansions always add a ton of content? Cause I think I looked its history up once and I don't think I saw thousands of things added in each expansion. L2 came out in 2003 in Korea and has had an update roughly every 6 months (afaik), which leads to 40 updates with some of them being on the smaller size and some literally changing the whole world.

Noaani wrote: »

graphics, itemization, class design
Which part of the above do you disagree with?

I prefer L2's all of those when compared to other mmos that I've seen from the period. Though two of these things are highly subjective in the first place (just like most of the things you listed).

And when it comes to graphics, from what I've seen in reviews of L2's release - it had one of the most stunning graphics in an mmo back then. And I definitely know that a lot of people that I played with praised it for looking better than most single player games from that time. This also led to the game only running on better PCs, because you needed the power to run the game well.

Songcaller

Ue5 means the lowest spec computers will still harness the full graphical glory, however, settings will be toned down to match the hardware, not the style.

A stable server was priority which we remedied in early tests. Then engine upgrade to ensure maximum access, the simplest development going forward, the quickest implementation going forward and the most beautiful option currently available for our needs.

In theory, I would expect to run ue5 in 8k 120 hz within 5 more years at max.

Noaani

Neurath wrote: »

Pixels are cheap. Voices can be expensive lol

Indeed.

George_Black

L2 was the best mmo. Not "pvp mmo".
It was the best mmo.

Songcaller

L2 suffered the same issue as swg though. Text bubble merchant lag lol.

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

Did EQ's expansions always add a ton of content?

Yes.

Every expansion adds literally dozens of new zones, as well as dozens of hours of new character progression (sometimes, but not always, in the form of new levels). There are always new systems or mechanics.

This is on top of monthly updates which - from what you have said - seem to be about on par with L2's updates (just more frequent - but each one is potentially smaller).

As I said, they are working on an AI engine for the game now, which will alter the entire game world when released. They also have new content for seven in game events (too many events, imo, but whatever). They have added a new raid zone in an update, new quests, added a 64 bit version of the game client and server (a multi-year project), added three new systems, and made alterations to two other systems.

These are just what was made available in updates - the expansion for this year is on top of that.

NiKr wrote: »

I prefer L2's all of those when compared to other mmos that I've seen from the period. Though two of these things are highly subjective in the first place (just like most of the things you listed).

One of the biggest issues I heard from L2 players - and looking at screenshots of the game it jumps out at me as being absolutely true - is that the characters often seem to not be "in" the world. They just look like they do not belong. I have heard this is more of an issue with indoor settings than outdoor.

My assumption with this is that it is a result of lighting - the developers seem to have added lighting to the world, and didn't apply it to characters at all, so the world had one type of lighting, and characters looked like they were sitting in an office under fluorescent lighting.

As I said, I am going by what I have been told. However, a quick look at screenshots from the game does seem to support what I have been told. EQ did this as well - but it also came out 4 years earlier. SWG - a game that came out the same year as L2 - did not have this issue.

Liking a games graphical style is purely subjective. I totally agree there. However, there are still aspects of graphics that are not style based, and are 100% objective - such as the above.

JamesSunderland

Noaani wrote: »

Even EQ has surpassed L2 in terms of all non-PvP aspects of the game (and some would argue the PvP aspects as well) - but that will happen when a game has 28 actual and full expansions (how many has L2 had in it's life again?)..

Most were expansions, NCSoft just called all of them update even tho they were as huge as expansions for most other games.

Prelude
Chronicle 1: Harbingers of War
.Chronicle 2: Age of Splendor
.Chronicle 3: Rise of Darkness
Chronicle 4: Scions of Destiny
Chronicle 5: Oath of Blood
Interlude
The Kamael
Hellbound (Update)
Gracia Part 1
Gracia Part 2 (Update)
Gracia Final
Gracia Epilogue (Update)
Freya
High Five Part 1
High Five Part 2 (Update)
High Five Part 3 (Update)
High Five / High Five Part 4 (Update)
High Five Part 5 (Update)
Harmony
Tauti
Glory Days
Echo
Power of the West Wind
Lindvior / Ruler of the West Wind
Episodeon
Valiance / Raiders
Ertheia / Dimensional Strangers
Infinite Odyssey: Prelude to the Journey
Infinite Odyssey
Infinite Odyssey / Infinite Odyssey: Shadows of Light Part 1 (Update)
Infinite Odyssey: Shadows of Light Part 2 (Update)
Underground / Infinite Odyssey: Hymn of the Soul (Update)
Infinite Odyssey: Will of the Ancients (Update)
Helios
Grand Crusade
Grand Crusade / Grand Crusade: Force Bringer(Update)
Salvation: First Chapter / The Page: Salvation
Salvation: The Gathering (Update)
Fafurion
Prelude of War
Prelude of War Pt.2 (Update)
Prelude of War Pt.3 (Update)
Homunculus
Homunculus Ch.2 (Update)
Return of the Queen Ant
Return of the Queen Ant Ch.2 (Update)
Master Class
Master Class Ch.2 (Update)

About 31 ranging in size and duration Expansions some with extra updates to make them even bigger.

Noaani wrote: »

I find it really funny that you use non-instanced dungeons as a talking point above though - one of the things that separated EQ2 from WoW was the fact that EQ2 had a LOT of non-instanced dungeons. For most of the time I played it, it had more non-instanced dungeon content than instanced dungeon content. The non-instanced raid content EQ2 had was my favorite content of any type, from any game, in any genre I have ever played.

You know EQ2 is yonger than L2, and that EQ is about 6 months younger than Lineage 1 right?
Even if we count the NA release date(7 months older) instead of the KR(1 year older) one.
Considering Steven's main inspirations are Lineage 2 and Archeage which are games he played, i wonder from where he drew this inspiration...

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

One of the biggest issues I heard from L2 players - and looking at screenshots of the game it jumps out at me as being absolutely true - is that the characters often seem to not be "in" the world. They just look like they do not belong. I have heard this is more of an issue with indoor settings than outdoor.

My assumption with this is that it is a result of lighting - the developers seem to have added lighting to the world, and didn't apply it to characters at all, so the world had one type of lighting, and characters looked like they were sitting in an office under fluorescent lighting.

I never really understood that critique (maybe it's smth with my eyes, I dunno) and have never heard it addressed to L2 so I guess I was just playing in a different gaming bubble.

Noaani

JamesSunderland wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Even EQ has surpassed L2 in terms of all non-PvP aspects of the game (and some would argue the PvP aspects as well) - but that will happen when a game has 28 actual and full expansions (how many has L2 had in it's life again?)..

Most were expansions, NCSoft just called all of them update even tho they were as huge as expansions for most other games.

Prelude
Chronicle 1: Harbingers of War
.Chronicle 2: Age of Splendor
.Chronicle 3: Rise of Darkness
Chronicle 4: Scions of Destiny
Chronicle 5: Oath of Blood
Interlude
The Kamael
Hellbound (Update)
Gracia Part 1
Gracia Part 2 (Update)
Gracia Final
Gracia Epilogue (Update)
Freya
High Five Part 1
High Five Part 2 (Update)
High Five Part 3 (Update)
High Five / High Five Part 4 (Update)
High Five Part 5 (Update)
Harmony
Tauti
Glory Days
Echo
Power of the West Wind
Lindvior / Ruler of the West Wind
Episodeon
Valiance / Raiders
Ertheia / Dimensional Strangers
Infinite Odyssey: Prelude to the Journey
Infinite Odyssey
Infinite Odyssey / Infinite Odyssey: Shadows of Light Part 1 (Update)
Infinite Odyssey: Shadows of Light Part 2 (Update)
Underground / Infinite Odyssey: Hymn of the Soul (Update)
Infinite Odyssey: Will of the Ancients (Update)
Helios
Grand Crusade
Grand Crusade / Grand Crusade: Force Bringer(Update)
Salvation: First Chapter / The Page: Salvation
Salvation: The Gathering (Update)
Fafurion
Prelude of War
Prelude of War Pt.2 (Update)
Prelude of War Pt.3 (Update)
Homunculus
Homunculus Ch.2 (Update)
Return of the Queen Ant
Return of the Queen Ant Ch.2 (Update)
Master Class
Master Class Ch.2 (Update)

I was looking through this list and noticed that you missed Awakening.

Even I - as someone that has not played the game and you all like to point out that his means I know nothing about it - knows that Awakening was the biggest update for L2 when it launched in like 2011 or 2012 or something.

Any reason it's missing?

Songcaller

You speak to the awakened Noanni. Hehe.

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