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Discussion about grinds

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Comments

  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Noaani wrote: »
    One day, L2 players will understand that nothing in that game outside of PvP is anything special. It is the basic level of the original EQ, but with PvP added. All MMO's since EQ have taken that same basic formula and added other things to it - in the case of EQ2 it added an entire layer of PvE content - as well as combat system - complexity on top of the basic EQ game.
    From the little amount of other mmos I've played (if I'm remembering them correctly cause for some it's been years), only BDO had big grouping of mobs, though even there you had to pull most of them yourself cause only a few would agro right away. FF14 was just a solo experience so barely any social agro at all. B&S was kinda the same. WoW mainly had long agro, but even with mobs from the same type/faction you could still pull singular mobs from a group just by slowly approaching them.

    I'm not saying that L2 is end all and be all. It was just the main mmo I've played so I'm literally stating the things I liked from it. The same way a WoW-main would do when describing things they liked in WoW. The things I've stated also were in contrast to the system Azhrae described, which is why I said that I preferred the system I was more familiar with, but ultimately didn't care what Intrepid would go with.

    I couldn't give fewer shits if L2 stole all its mechanics or somehow invented them all on the spot. I'm sure that the things people like in EQ came from somewhere too. If I'd played EQ instead of L2 back when I got into mmos, I'd be giving examples from it in just the same way I'm doing with L2. And some other "akshually" person would say that EQ's features were taken from UO or some other shit. Which in turn was inspired by some ancient MUDs which came from D&D which stemmed from fantasy novels which came from irl escapism of some medieval dudes who had a bit too much to drink and got a vivid imagination. And all it started with a big bang HEY
    Noaani wrote: »
    Even EQ has surpassed L2 in terms of all non-PvP aspects of the game (and some would argue the PvP aspects as well) - but that will happen when a game has 28 actual and full expansions (how many has L2 had in it's life again?).
    40. It has had 40 updates in its currently still existing life.

  • edited May 23
    Noaani's absolute "non-personal experience based" disdain and disregard towards L2 systems/concepts other than PvP, made me make my question in the Q&A thread of the next livestream.
    I wonder what inspirations from Lineage 2 other than the enchanting and the focus on non-instanced dungeons Ashes might have to make Noaani even more mad about L2 :D
    6wtxguK.jpg
    Aren't we all sinners?
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    Noaani wrote: »
    Honestly, every time an L2 player says "L2 did this" in regards to something that is not PvP, I roll my eyes because the thing they are gushing about is literally a base level aspect of MMO's.

    Yeah... Im gonna call you out on your ** again. In this thread, which is about grind, nobody said anything about "L2 did this". Nikr said "I am used to any grind because I played L2" and Sunderland who said "all drops/mats in L2 were usefull" did not give you reason to go on yet another bitter rant about L2 being shit.

    You constructed a "hey I never played L2 but I want to be heard and taken seriously" narrative that has nothing to do with the topic. Just a weird personal campaign against that game. Offtopic as usual with long paragraphs of pseudo-intellect.
    Once more... a game you never played, and you somehow feel left out of, yet you keep bringing it up.

  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    Lol... not only that, but prior to that rant, your contribution to the thread was also offtopic saying with way too many words, w0w eq and eso succees because pvp is isolated. Cool story; what does that have to do, if not with this topic, AoC?
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited May 23
    Noaani's absolute "non-personal experience based" disdain and disregard towards L2 systems/concepts other than PvP, made me make my question in the Q&A thread of the next livestream.
    Disrain and disregard?

    L2 was the among the best PvP MMORPG's of the early 2000's. In fact, it was either the best, or the second best (EVE being the other - no other MMO's of the 2000's came close).

    That isn't disdain or disregard, that is just a realistic view.

    Every other aspect of the MMO genre has significantly better examples.
    Want a better crafting game? SWG.
    Better economy? EVE.
    Better PvE? EQ2.

    Storytelling, lore, graphics, itemization, class design, race design, these are all things that have significantly better examples from contemporary MMO's. However, L2 was the definitive fantasy PvP MMO of the 2000's.

    Which part of the above do you disagree with?

    ---

    I find it really funny that you use non-instanced dungeons as a talking point above though - one of the things that separated EQ2 from WoW was the fact that EQ2 had a LOT of non-instanced dungeons. For most of the time I played it, it had more non-instanced dungeon content than instanced dungeon content. The non-instanced raid content EQ2 had was my favorite content of any type, from any game, in any genre I have ever played.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited May 23
    NiKr wrote: »
    40. It has had 40 updates in its currently still existing life.
    I didn't ask for updates, I asked for full expansions.

    If you want to talk "updates" (which I take to include new content or systems and not just bug fixes and such), EQ has well over 250 of them - on top of 28 full expansions.

    I mean, the game has been out for 22 years, and they are working on the long term goal of adding a new UI engine to the game at some point in the next few years as an update (but not as an expansion).

    Also, the 29th expansion is in development. What is the L2 development roadmap looking like right now?
  • NeurathNeurath Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I want a magess robe like Eq's mascot maiden in Ashes :)
  • NeurathNeurath Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Here she is. As a female toon player the image hooked immediately.

    ymoz0rmuyoea.png
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited May 23
    Neurath wrote: »
    I want a magess robe like Eq's mascot maiden in Ashes :)

    I'll take a character with the voice of EQ2's original male "mascot" - can't beat Christopher Lee voice acting, imo.
  • NeurathNeurath Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Pixels are cheap. Voices can be expensive lol :)
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Noaani wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    40. It has had 40 updates in its currently still existing life.
    I didn't ask for updates, I asked for full expansions.
    Every update added content. Some were bigger some were smaller. Did EQ's expansions always add a ton of content? Cause I think I looked its history up once and I don't think I saw thousands of things added in each expansion. L2 came out in 2003 in Korea and has had an update roughly every 6 months (afaik), which leads to 40 updates with some of them being on the smaller size and some literally changing the whole world.
    Noaani wrote: »
    graphics, itemization, class design
    Which part of the above do you disagree with?
    I prefer L2's all of those when compared to other mmos that I've seen from the period. Though two of these things are highly subjective in the first place (just like most of the things you listed).

    And when it comes to graphics, from what I've seen in reviews of L2's release - it had one of the most stunning graphics in an mmo back then. And I definitely know that a lot of people that I played with praised it for looking better than most single player games from that time. This also led to the game only running on better PCs, because you needed the power to run the game well.
  • NeurathNeurath Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Ue5 means the lowest spec computers will still harness the full graphical glory, however, settings will be toned down to match the hardware, not the style.

    A stable server was priority which we remedied in early tests. Then engine upgrade to ensure maximum access, the simplest development going forward, the quickest implementation going forward and the most beautiful option currently available for our needs.

    In theory, I would expect to run ue5 in 8k 120 hz within 5 more years at max.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Neurath wrote: »
    Pixels are cheap. Voices can be expensive lol :)

    Indeed.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    L2 was the best mmo. Not "pvp mmo".
    It was the best mmo.
  • NeurathNeurath Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    L2 suffered the same issue as swg though. Text bubble merchant lag lol.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited May 23
    NiKr wrote: »
    Did EQ's expansions always add a ton of content?
    Yes.

    Every expansion adds literally dozens of new zones, as well as dozens of hours of new character progression (sometimes, but not always, in the form of new levels). There are always new systems or mechanics.

    This is on top of monthly updates which - from what you have said - seem to be about on par with L2's updates (just more frequent - but each one is potentially smaller).

    As I said, they are working on an AI engine for the game now, which will alter the entire game world when released. They also have new content for seven in game events (too many events, imo, but whatever). They have added a new raid zone in an update, new quests, added a 64 bit version of the game client and server (a multi-year project), added three new systems, and made alterations to two other systems.

    These are just what was made available in updates - the expansion for this year is on top of that.
    NiKr wrote: »
    I prefer L2's all of those when compared to other mmos that I've seen from the period. Though two of these things are highly subjective in the first place (just like most of the things you listed).

    One of the biggest issues I heard from L2 players - and looking at screenshots of the game it jumps out at me as being absolutely true - is that the characters often seem to not be "in" the world. They just look like they do not belong. I have heard this is more of an issue with indoor settings than outdoor.

    My assumption with this is that it is a result of lighting - the developers seem to have added lighting to the world, and didn't apply it to characters at all, so the world had one type of lighting, and characters looked like they were sitting in an office under fluorescent lighting.

    As I said, I am going by what I have been told. However, a quick look at screenshots from the game does seem to support what I have been told. EQ did this as well - but it also came out 4 years earlier. SWG - a game that came out the same year as L2 - did not have this issue.

    Liking a games graphical style is purely subjective. I totally agree there. However, there are still aspects of graphics that are not style based, and are 100% objective - such as the above.
  • edited May 23
    Noaani wrote: »
    Even EQ has surpassed L2 in terms of all non-PvP aspects of the game (and some would argue the PvP aspects as well) - but that will happen when a game has 28 actual and full expansions (how many has L2 had in it's life again?)..

    Most were expansions, NCSoft just called all of them update even tho they were as huge as expansions for most other games.

    Prelude
    Chronicle 1: Harbingers of War
    .Chronicle 2: Age of Splendor
    .Chronicle 3: Rise of Darkness
    Chronicle 4: Scions of Destiny
    Chronicle 5: Oath of Blood
    Interlude
    The Kamael
    Hellbound (Update)
    Gracia Part 1
    Gracia Part 2 (Update)
    Gracia Final
    Gracia Epilogue (Update)
    Freya
    High Five Part 1
    High Five Part 2 (Update)
    High Five Part 3 (Update)
    High Five / High Five Part 4 (Update)
    High Five Part 5 (Update)
    Harmony
    Tauti
    Glory Days
    Echo
    Power of the West Wind
    Lindvior / Ruler of the West Wind
    Episodeon
    Valiance / Raiders
    Ertheia / Dimensional Strangers
    Infinite Odyssey: Prelude to the Journey
    Infinite Odyssey
    Infinite Odyssey / Infinite Odyssey: Shadows of Light Part 1 (Update)
    Infinite Odyssey: Shadows of Light Part 2 (Update)
    Underground / Infinite Odyssey: Hymn of the Soul (Update)
    Infinite Odyssey: Will of the Ancients (Update)
    Helios
    Grand Crusade
    Grand Crusade / Grand Crusade: Force Bringer(Update)
    Salvation: First Chapter / The Page: Salvation
    Salvation: The Gathering (Update)
    Fafurion
    Prelude of War
    Prelude of War Pt.2 (Update)
    Prelude of War Pt.3 (Update)
    Homunculus
    Homunculus Ch.2 (Update)
    Return of the Queen Ant
    Return of the Queen Ant Ch.2 (Update)
    Master Class
    Master Class Ch.2 (Update)

    About 31 ranging in size and duration Expansions some with extra updates to make them even bigger.
    Noaani wrote: »
    I find it really funny that you use non-instanced dungeons as a talking point above though - one of the things that separated EQ2 from WoW was the fact that EQ2 had a LOT of non-instanced dungeons. For most of the time I played it, it had more non-instanced dungeon content than instanced dungeon content. The non-instanced raid content EQ2 had was my favorite content of any type, from any game, in any genre I have ever played.

    You know EQ2 is yonger than L2, and that EQ is about 6 months younger than Lineage 1 right?
    Even if we count the NA release date(7 months older) instead of the KR(1 year older) one.
    Considering Steven's main inspirations are Lineage 2 and Archeage which are games he played, i wonder from where he drew this inspiration...

    6wtxguK.jpg
    Aren't we all sinners?
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Noaani wrote: »
    One of the biggest issues I heard from L2 players - and looking at screenshots of the game it jumps out at me as being absolutely true - is that the characters often seem to not be "in" the world. They just look like they do not belong. I have heard this is more of an issue with indoor settings than outdoor.

    My assumption with this is that it is a result of lighting - the developers seem to have added lighting to the world, and didn't apply it to characters at all, so the world had one type of lighting, and characters looked like they were sitting in an office under fluorescent lighting.
    I never really understood that critique (maybe it's smth with my eyes, I dunno) and have never heard it addressed to L2 so I guess I was just playing in a different gaming bubble.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Noaani wrote: »
    Even EQ has surpassed L2 in terms of all non-PvP aspects of the game (and some would argue the PvP aspects as well) - but that will happen when a game has 28 actual and full expansions (how many has L2 had in it's life again?)..

    Most were expansions, NCSoft just called all of them update even tho they were as huge as expansions for most other games.

    Prelude
    Chronicle 1: Harbingers of War
    .Chronicle 2: Age of Splendor
    .Chronicle 3: Rise of Darkness
    Chronicle 4: Scions of Destiny
    Chronicle 5: Oath of Blood
    Interlude
    The Kamael
    Hellbound (Update)
    Gracia Part 1
    Gracia Part 2 (Update)
    Gracia Final
    Gracia Epilogue (Update)
    Freya
    High Five Part 1
    High Five Part 2 (Update)
    High Five Part 3 (Update)
    High Five / High Five Part 4 (Update)
    High Five Part 5 (Update)
    Harmony
    Tauti
    Glory Days
    Echo
    Power of the West Wind
    Lindvior / Ruler of the West Wind
    Episodeon
    Valiance / Raiders
    Ertheia / Dimensional Strangers
    Infinite Odyssey: Prelude to the Journey
    Infinite Odyssey
    Infinite Odyssey / Infinite Odyssey: Shadows of Light Part 1 (Update)
    Infinite Odyssey: Shadows of Light Part 2 (Update)
    Underground / Infinite Odyssey: Hymn of the Soul (Update)
    Infinite Odyssey: Will of the Ancients (Update)
    Helios
    Grand Crusade
    Grand Crusade / Grand Crusade: Force Bringer(Update)
    Salvation: First Chapter / The Page: Salvation
    Salvation: The Gathering (Update)
    Fafurion
    Prelude of War
    Prelude of War Pt.2 (Update)
    Prelude of War Pt.3 (Update)
    Homunculus
    Homunculus Ch.2 (Update)
    Return of the Queen Ant
    Return of the Queen Ant Ch.2 (Update)
    Master Class
    Master Class Ch.2 (Update)



    I was looking through this list and noticed that you missed Awakening.

    Even I - as someone that has not played the game and you all like to point out that his means I know nothing about it - knows that Awakening was the biggest update for L2 when it launched in like 2011 or 2012 or something.

    Any reason it's missing?
  • NeurathNeurath Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    You speak to the awakened Noanni. Hehe.
  • edited May 23
    Noaani wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Even EQ has surpassed L2 in terms of all non-PvP aspects of the game (and some would argue the PvP aspects as well) - but that will happen when a game has 28 actual and full expansions (how many has L2 had in it's life again?)..

    Most were expansions, NCSoft just called all of them update even tho they were as huge as expansions for most other games.

    Prelude
    Chronicle 1: Harbingers of War
    .Chronicle 2: Age of Splendor
    .Chronicle 3: Rise of Darkness
    Chronicle 4: Scions of Destiny
    Chronicle 5: Oath of Blood
    Interlude
    The Kamael
    Hellbound (Update)
    Gracia Part 1
    Gracia Part 2 (Update)
    Gracia Final
    Gracia Epilogue (Update)
    Freya
    High Five Part 1
    High Five Part 2 (Update)
    High Five Part 3 (Update)
    High Five / High Five Part 4 (Update)
    High Five Part 5 (Update)
    Harmony
    Tauti
    Glory Days
    Echo
    Power of the West Wind
    Lindvior / Ruler of the West Wind
    Episodeon
    Valiance / Raiders
    Ertheia / Dimensional Strangers
    Infinite Odyssey: Prelude to the Journey
    Infinite Odyssey
    Infinite Odyssey / Infinite Odyssey: Shadows of Light Part 1 (Update)
    Infinite Odyssey: Shadows of Light Part 2 (Update)
    Underground / Infinite Odyssey: Hymn of the Soul (Update)
    Infinite Odyssey: Will of the Ancients (Update)
    Helios
    Grand Crusade
    Grand Crusade / Grand Crusade: Force Bringer(Update)
    Salvation: First Chapter / The Page: Salvation
    Salvation: The Gathering (Update)
    Fafurion
    Prelude of War
    Prelude of War Pt.2 (Update)
    Prelude of War Pt.3 (Update)
    Homunculus
    Homunculus Ch.2 (Update)
    Return of the Queen Ant
    Return of the Queen Ant Ch.2 (Update)
    Master Class
    Master Class Ch.2 (Update)



    I was looking through this list and noticed that you missed Awakening.

    Even I - as someone that has not played the game and you all like to point out that his means I know nothing about it - knows that Awakening was the biggest update for L2 when it launched in like 2011 or 2012 or something.

    Any reason it's missing?

    Literally missed it in the Ctrl C Ctrl V lmao, Btw its probably the version i most dispise because it was at the same time the game became F2P and hell broke loose in the cash shop and the bot fiesta, not long after i left the official servers.
    6wtxguK.jpg
    Aren't we all sinners?
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited May 23
    Literally missed it in the Ctrl C Ctrl V lmao, Btw its probably the version i most dispise because it was at the same time the game became F2P and hell broke loose in the cash shop and the bot fiesta.
    Mistakes happen - even Freudian ones.

    However, since I was able to read your post, notice that was missing and type a reply, all in 8 minutes, how about we stop with the assumption not playing L2 means I know nothing about it.

    The reality is, each chronicle in L2 is perhaps equal to an expansion in a regular MMO. That puts L2 at four, by my count. The Chaotic Chronicle, The Chaotic Throne, Goddess of Destruction and Epic Tale Of Aden.

    Since Awakening (the biggest single update to L2 at the time) added 9 bosses, and an average EQ or EQ2 expansion would add 30 - 40 raid bosses (and twice that number of group bosses), this seems to me to be about right - if we wish to be generous to L2.
  • edited May 23
    Noaani wrote: »
    Literally missed it in the Ctrl C Ctrl V lmao, Btw its probably the version i most dispise because it was at the same time the game became F2P and hell broke loose in the cash shop and the bot fiesta.
    Mistakes happen - even Freudian ones.

    However, since I was able to read your post, notice that was missing and type a reply, all in 8 minutes, how about we stop with the assumption not playing L2 means I know nothing about it.

    Interesting, even you mentioned it as possible the biggest expansion in the game, it isn't a specific ingame systems related aspect that would require experience and familiarization with the game itself to be adressed...
    6wtxguK.jpg
    Aren't we all sinners?
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    I have an even better suggestion, how about we go back to topic of grind and how we all hate it so much, with some of us not hating it at all. And with me loving it B)
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Noaani wrote: »
    Literally missed it in the Ctrl C Ctrl V lmao, Btw its probably the version i most dispise because it was at the same time the game became F2P and hell broke loose in the cash shop and the bot fiesta.
    Mistakes happen - even Freudian ones.

    However, since I was able to read your post, notice that was missing and type a reply, all in 8 minutes, how about we stop with the assumption not playing L2 means I know nothing about it.

    Interesting, even you mentioned it as possible the biggest expansion in the game, it isn't a specific ingame systems related aspect that would require experience and familiarization with the game itself to be adressed...

    I never said I know everything about it - I said I clearly know more than nothing about it. I would wager - after pointing out that omission - that you are now aware that I know more about L2 than you previously assumed.
  • edited May 23
    NiKr wrote: »
    I have an even better suggestion, how about we go back to topic of grind and how we all hate it so much, with some of us not hating it at all. And with me loving it B)

    Probably the best idea, its not like we can ever change Noaani's mind about Lineage 2 or its grind and systems, but its completely fine, no matter how loud Noaani complains about Lineage 2 systems and tries to diminish it, it still is one of Steven's main inspirations for Ashes and that will be felt in the game. Lets move on.
    6wtxguK.jpg
    Aren't we all sinners?
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited May 23
    NiKr wrote: »
    I have an even better suggestion, how about we go back to topic of grind and how we all hate it so much, with some of us not hating it at all. And with me loving it B)

    Probably the best idea, it not like we can ever change Noaani's mind about Lineage 2 or its grind and systems, but its completely fine, no matter how loud Noaani complain about Lineage 2 systems and tries to diminish it, it still is one of Steven's main inspirations for Ashes and that will be felt in the game. Lets move on.

    Indeed it is, he has said many times he has taken inspiration from L2's PvP - and that is fantastic.

    He would be doing a disservice to all stakeholders if he took inspiration from a given aspect of MMO design from anything other than the best examples of that in MMO's.

    For PvP, that is L2. I would even go as far as to say that L2 is the best fantasy PvP MMO to date - not just the best of it's contemporaries.

    For all other aspects of an MMO, there are better examples.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Good video that describes the ultimate goal of any kind of grind: make the "need" to do smth in the game feel less than the "want" of the reward that the "need" gets you.



    If I "want" an uberstrong weapon, I'll "need" to do a lot of stuff. But if I "want" a few mats for my gear repairs, I should "need" to only spend a few minutes. Unless the repairs are for that uberstrong weapon. Then I should "need" to do a fair bit of stuff.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    I see a trend in gamers wanting the ultra item right now and ez, with an unending grind to maintain it, instead of a long grind in the open world (pvX) to get it.

    That seems weird to me. Why would people prefer to make the journey short and meaningless, only to reach the end fast and then do repetitive content at the end?
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    I see a trend in gamers wanting the ultra item right now and ez, with an unending grind to maintain it, instead of a long grind in the open world (pvX) to get it.

    That seems weird to me. Why would people prefer to make the journey short and meaningless, only to reach the end fast and then do repetitive content at the end?
    I blame it on WoW's devs. They could only develop stuff for the highest levels and then had to give people a ton of catch-up mechanics because of that. The whole industry saw that as "the right thing to do" just because WoW kept making obscene amounts of money so more companies started shortening the journey to the top and just making people grind at max lvl instead of spreading gear acquisition across the whole leveling process.

    And from what I've heard Lost Ark is the latest and greatest example of this, with smth like a few hours to get to the top and then just weeks/months of grinding dailies and time-gated content to increase your power. And considering how successful LA is/was, I'd imagine execs in some companies are already yelling at their devs to copy that feature.
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