Discussion about grinds

Noaani wrote: »

JamesSunderland wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Even EQ has surpassed L2 in terms of all non-PvP aspects of the game (and some would argue the PvP aspects as well) - but that will happen when a game has 28 actual and full expansions (how many has L2 had in it's life again?)..

Most were expansions, NCSoft just called all of them update even tho they were as huge as expansions for most other games.

Prelude
Chronicle 1: Harbingers of War
.Chronicle 2: Age of Splendor
.Chronicle 3: Rise of Darkness
Chronicle 4: Scions of Destiny
Chronicle 5: Oath of Blood
Interlude
The Kamael
Hellbound (Update)
Gracia Part 1
Gracia Part 2 (Update)
Gracia Final
Gracia Epilogue (Update)
Freya
High Five Part 1
High Five Part 2 (Update)
High Five Part 3 (Update)
High Five / High Five Part 4 (Update)
High Five Part 5 (Update)
Harmony
Tauti
Glory Days
Echo
Power of the West Wind
Lindvior / Ruler of the West Wind
Episodeon
Valiance / Raiders
Ertheia / Dimensional Strangers
Infinite Odyssey: Prelude to the Journey
Infinite Odyssey
Infinite Odyssey / Infinite Odyssey: Shadows of Light Part 1 (Update)
Infinite Odyssey: Shadows of Light Part 2 (Update)
Underground / Infinite Odyssey: Hymn of the Soul (Update)
Infinite Odyssey: Will of the Ancients (Update)
Helios
Grand Crusade
Grand Crusade / Grand Crusade: Force Bringer(Update)
Salvation: First Chapter / The Page: Salvation
Salvation: The Gathering (Update)
Fafurion
Prelude of War
Prelude of War Pt.2 (Update)
Prelude of War Pt.3 (Update)
Homunculus
Homunculus Ch.2 (Update)
Return of the Queen Ant
Return of the Queen Ant Ch.2 (Update)
Master Class
Master Class Ch.2 (Update)

I was looking through this list and noticed that you missed Awakening.

Even I - as someone that has not played the game and you all like to point out that his means I know nothing about it - knows that Awakening was the biggest update for L2 when it launched in like 2011 or 2012 or something.

Any reason it's missing?

Literally missed it in the Ctrl C Ctrl V lmao, Btw its probably the version i most dispise because it was at the same time the game became F2P and hell broke loose in the cash shop and the bot fiesta, not long after i left the official servers.

JamesSunderland wrote: »

Literally missed it in the Ctrl C Ctrl V lmao, Btw its probably the version i most dispise because it was at the same time the game became F2P and hell broke loose in the cash shop and the bot fiesta.

Mistakes happen - even Freudian ones.

However, since I was able to read your post, notice that was missing and type a reply, all in 8 minutes, how about we stop with the assumption not playing L2 means I know nothing about it.

The reality is, each chronicle in L2 is perhaps equal to an expansion in a regular MMO. That puts L2 at four, by my count. The Chaotic Chronicle, The Chaotic Throne, Goddess of Destruction and Epic Tale Of Aden.

Since Awakening (the biggest single update to L2 at the time) added 9 bosses, and an average EQ or EQ2 expansion would add 30 - 40 raid bosses (and twice that number of group bosses), this seems to me to be about right - if we wish to be generous to L2.

Noaani wrote: »

JamesSunderland wrote: »

Literally missed it in the Ctrl C Ctrl V lmao, Btw its probably the version i most dispise because it was at the same time the game became F2P and hell broke loose in the cash shop and the bot fiesta.

Mistakes happen - even Freudian ones.

However, since I was able to read your post, notice that was missing and type a reply, all in 8 minutes, how about we stop with the assumption not playing L2 means I know nothing about it.

Interesting, even you mentioned it as possible the biggest expansion in the game, it isn't a specific ingame systems related aspect that would require experience and familiarization with the game itself to be adressed...

I have an even better suggestion, how about we go back to topic of grind and how we all hate it so much, with some of us not hating it at all. And with me loving it

JamesSunderland wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

JamesSunderland wrote: »

Literally missed it in the Ctrl C Ctrl V lmao, Btw its probably the version i most dispise because it was at the same time the game became F2P and hell broke loose in the cash shop and the bot fiesta.

Mistakes happen - even Freudian ones.

However, since I was able to read your post, notice that was missing and type a reply, all in 8 minutes, how about we stop with the assumption not playing L2 means I know nothing about it.

Interesting, even you mentioned it as possible the biggest expansion in the game, it isn't a specific ingame systems related aspect that would require experience and familiarization with the game itself to be adressed...

I never said I know everything about it - I said I clearly know more than nothing about it. I would wager - after pointing out that omission - that you are now aware that I know more about L2 than you previously assumed.

NiKr wrote: »

I have an even better suggestion, how about we go back to topic of grind and how we all hate it so much, with some of us not hating it at all. And with me loving it

Probably the best idea, its not like we can ever change Noaani's mind about Lineage 2 or its grind and systems, but its completely fine, no matter how loud Noaani complains about Lineage 2 systems and tries to diminish it, it still is one of Steven's main inspirations for Ashes and that will be felt in the game. Lets move on.

JamesSunderland wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

I have an even better suggestion, how about we go back to topic of grind and how we all hate it so much, with some of us not hating it at all. And with me loving it

Probably the best idea, it not like we can ever change Noaani's mind about Lineage 2 or its grind and systems, but its completely fine, no matter how loud Noaani complain about Lineage 2 systems and tries to diminish it, it still is one of Steven's main inspirations for Ashes and that will be felt in the game. Lets move on.

Indeed it is, he has said many times he has taken inspiration from L2's PvP - and that is fantastic.

He would be doing a disservice to all stakeholders if he took inspiration from a given aspect of MMO design from anything other than the best examples of that in MMO's.

For PvP, that is L2. I would even go as far as to say that L2 is the best fantasy PvP MMO to date - not just the best of it's contemporaries.

For all other aspects of an MMO, there are better examples.

Good video that describes the ultimate goal of any kind of grind: make the "need" to do smth in the game feel less than the "want" of the reward that the "need" gets you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aqn3Zqe4AaU

If I "want" an uberstrong weapon, I'll "need" to do a lot of stuff. But if I "want" a few mats for my gear repairs, I should "need" to only spend a few minutes. Unless the repairs are for that uberstrong weapon. Then I should "need" to do a fair bit of stuff.

George_Black

I see a trend in gamers wanting the ultra item right now and ez, with an unending grind to maintain it, instead of a long grind in the open world (pvX) to get it.

That seems weird to me. Why would people prefer to make the journey short and meaningless, only to reach the end fast and then do repetitive content at the end?

George_Black wrote: »

I see a trend in gamers wanting the ultra item right now and ez, with an unending grind to maintain it, instead of a long grind in the open world (pvX) to get it.

That seems weird to me. Why would people prefer to make the journey short and meaningless, only to reach the end fast and then do repetitive content at the end?

I blame it on WoW's devs. They could only develop stuff for the highest levels and then had to give people a ton of catch-up mechanics because of that. The whole industry saw that as "the right thing to do" just because WoW kept making obscene amounts of money so more companies started shortening the journey to the top and just making people grind at max lvl instead of spreading gear acquisition across the whole leveling process.

And from what I've heard Lost Ark is the latest and greatest example of this, with smth like a few hours to get to the top and then just weeks/months of grinding dailies and time-gated content to increase your power. And considering how successful LA is/was, I'd imagine execs in some companies are already yelling at their devs to copy that feature.

Okeydoke

Didn't read thread, too much of a grind.

NiKr wrote: »

And from what I've heard Lost Ark is the latest and greatest example of this, with smth like a few hours to get to the top and then just weeks/months of grinding dailies and time-gated content to increase your power. And considering how successful LA is/was, I'd imagine execs in some companies are already yelling at their devs to copy that feature.

I have a friend who's beside himself because I won't play Lost Ark. "It's FREE" he says. As in, what do I have to lose? Brother you couldn't pay me to play that game. (I mean you could but.)

He's told me a bit about the gameplay. He logs in to do dailies on MULTIPLE alts. What the fuck. It's like I live on a completely different planet than some gamers. Like I'm a completely different species. I can not figure out what the draw is to these types of games. They sound like absolute hell. Like I'd have more fun just repeatedly nutchecking myself into a wall.

When you see a game like Lost Ark, in all of it's glory - endless dailies, endless p2w, endless grinding ai mobs, endless rng gear progression...the silver lining has to be that it can't get any worse right? Like this is rock bottom right? It's only up from here? The games will surely get better, this can't last forever...

Right?

Okeydoke wrote: »

He's told me a bit about the gameplay. He logs in to do dailies on MULTIPLE alts. What the fuck. It's like I live on a completely different planet than some gamers. Like I'm a completely different species. I can not figure out what the draw is to these types of games. They sound like absolute hell. Like I'd have more fun just repeatedly nutchecking myself into a wall.

You know what the funny thing is? I love grinding in mmos. I love idle/clicker games where you do the literally same action for moooonths to see any real growth or progress. I love that shit. But from everything that I've heard about LA, the game sounds like an absolute chore even for me. Same as you, I can't even begin to understand people who play it.

Okeydoke

Yeah I love grinding too. And to some extent even the good grinding systems all boil down to the same thing, endless repetition of some sort. But man some are so much better than others.

George_Black wrote: »

I see a trend in gamers wanting the ultra item right now and ez, with an unending grind to maintain it, instead of a long grind in the open world (pvX) to get it.

That seems weird to me. Why would people prefer to make the journey short and meaningless, only to reach the end fast and then do repetitive content at the end?

A long grind in the open world to get top end items was always a niche thing.

Most games - especially if you go back to the 2000's or earlier - required you to take on raid bosses with many dozens - or even hundreds - of other players in order to get top end loot.

To a player in the original EQ, the notion of simply being able to grind out to get top end loot would be considered 'ez'. No need to coordinate masses of people and their schedules, no need to work as a part of a team on a massive scale, no respawn restrictions to one mob per week (or one mob every two weeks - as was somewhat common).

I really dislike the idea of an open world grind to get top end gear. It seems too easy, too trivial. Sure, it may take time, but taking time does not mean it is hard to do.

I'd much rather top end gear be obtained via an activity where only 10% of the people that actually put the time and effort in to it are actually successful due to said activity being actually hard - not due to people giving up due to not having the time.

I understand it is the only available option in a PvP heavy game, but that doesn't take away from it's trivial nature in comparison to what other games have players do.

Noaani wrote: »

I understand it is the only available option in a PvP heavy game, but that doesn't take away from it's trivial nature in comparison to what other games have players do.

That's the thing though, there's always a cap to the mob's/boss' difficulty, while there's not really a limit to how many or how skillful the enemy players, that stand in your way, will be.

Now you'll probably just say that L2's pve was so trash that I got no idea how difficult pve can be, but I can use the same argument of "you don't know how difficult it can be to overcome hundreds of players to even try the pve". And those players could potentially double, because even if you join some big guild that has the ability to farm the bosses (still through pvp), you'd have to go through the hundreds of members before you get your hands on the top lvl loot.

And with Ashes trying to go for both, you will have to go through double the players after all. And THEN you'll have to go through the pve too, because once you go up the guild ladder, you'll have to prove that you even deserve to have that loot by executing pve at the highest lvl.

George_Black

You dont understand open world nmos noanni. It has nothing to do with "it will just take time". Mb you should rewrite your post without quoting me and just say what you need to say.

And once again you missed the essence. Here ima help you see it.

I see a trend in gamers wanting the ultra item right now and ez, with an unending grind to maintain it, (dont read this part, you dont understand it---instead of a long grind in the open world (pvX) to get it.---)

That seems weird to me. Why would people prefer to make the journey short and meaningless, only to reach the end fast and then do repetitive content at the end?

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

I understand it is the only available option in a PvP heavy game, but that doesn't take away from it's trivial nature in comparison to what other games have players do.

Now you'll probably just say that L2's pve was so trash that I got no idea how difficult pve can be, but I can use the same argument of "you don't know how difficult it can be to overcome hundreds of players to even try the pve".

You seem to forget that the MMO I have the second most amount of time in is Archeage. Archeage has that same content type, as it was designed by the lead developer of Lineage.

I know the type of content you are talking about, I have participated in it, and lead raids to take on PvE encounters in that same PvP setting.

With that experience, I am telling you now, that it is easier than a top end raid mob in a well designed PvE game, even with instances. Killing Archeages Red Dragon or Kraken was trivial in comparison to most end game raid bosses in even WoW.

Sure, people could fight you to stop you, but the thing with that is that people that are losing tend to leave fairly quickly these days (that may not have been the case in 2003, but it absolutely was the case from 2014 to 2018).

Since the encounters in these open world settings need to be designed to be able to be killed during PvP, as soon as you remove that PvP from the picture - either by giving the opposition a beat down that they don't want to repeat, or by diplomacy - the encounters are dead easy. Myself and about 15 others killed the top end raid mob in Archeage - an encounter designed for 80 people - in around 10 minutes, simply because we had removed PvP from the picture.

Sure, with PvP, we would have had no chance at all, but we managed to just eliminate that PvP aspect. PvP - people in general - is much, much easier to just avoid than you make it sound.

As a fun fact, if you manage to get an opposing guild to talk shit about how they are going to ruin you with the next spawn of a mob, and you give them a solid beatdown, record it and post it to YouTube, you tend to break up opposing guilds to open the way to no opposition on said encounters for a few months.

Again, this may well have been different back in 2003 (the YouTube part is - it wasn't around until 2005). However, that is how it has worked on this type of content within the last decade.

Putting people up as the difficulty makes things easier than putting content up as the difficulty.

Okeydoke wrote: »

He's told me a bit about the gameplay. He logs in to do dailies on MULTIPLE alts. What the fuck. It's like I live on a completely different planet than some gamers. Like I'm a completely different species. I can not figure out what the draw is to these types of games. They sound like absolute hell. Like I'd have more fun just repeatedly nutchecking myself into a wall.

If there are 2 things i want intrepid to avoid at all cost in Ashes is Dailies and Alts Direct Advantage.

Those things are really bad in Lost Ark and were even worse in Archeage(Hiram patch dailies and onward patchs)

Dailies are one of the things i despise the most in MMORPGs, it restricts players to do chores every single day or be left behind by losing a day that most of the times can't be recovered like in Archeage, making players do the dailies intead of content they actually like and want to do.
Weeklies are acceptable if reasonably fast to be completed and not too many.

Alts Direct Advantage is also a horrible concept that maximizes Bots and RMTs potential, as well as lame funelling resources into main character type of progression.
In Archeage people would even walk around with their Buffing Alts auto-playing songs on their Mount back slot.

Okeydoke

Yeah the advantage of an alt should be nothing more than just the fact that the alt exists, that you have access to it and can do things with it, just like your main character. There shouldn't be any of these built in, synergistic advantages for having an alt thrown on top.