PvP balancing done right - by blizzard

Sometimes a class is really strong and balanced in PvP.
In PvP, they have amazing burst, utility and surviability in the context of player combat.

But their damage can simultaneously be horrible in PvE. And their utility can be lackluster in a PvE context. So bad infact, thats it's a straight downgrade from other similar classes and roles.

You now have a class thats severely underpowered and unplayed in PvE, while really balanced, popular and good in PvP.

If you do an overall buff to the class, you destroy PvP balance. If you do nothing, you don't solve the PvE imbalance.

How would you solve it's PvE issues without without destroying the delicate balance between PvP and PvE?

--->
A simple line of code and a sentence is enough:

Blizzard latest patch notes for arms warrior:
Mortal Strike damage increased by 10%. This change does not apply to PvP.
Overpower damage increased by 10%. This change does not apply to PvP.
Execute and Condemn damage increased by 15%. This change does not apply to PvP.

Developers’ note: These changes are intended to increase Arms single target performance while not affecting areas where they already excel.

The best of both worlds
PvE and PvP balancing, without affecting each other in any way. Keeping everyone happy, since it has 0 negative effects for anyone. As a nice cherry on the top, it makes the life of a developer about 100% easier while balancing classes.

Why are most Ashes of creation fans against this approach to balancing?

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NishUK

Noaani wrote: »

As an aside, none of the healers in EQ2 were robe wearers....

I feel like I've got a permanent DoT with no cleanse, honestly I can't carry on.

Will we actually address points, is it possible, will some of you see past the mmorpg standard w/ a heavy sprinkle toward raid focus, just try, attempt.

Noaani

NishUK wrote: »

Will we actually address points, is it possible, will some of you see past the mmorpg standard w/ a heavy sprinkle toward raid focus, just try, attempt.

Did you not notice that I literally addressed your question in full?

And if you are going to just keep throwing mindless assumptions about the genre around that are easily disproven (especially true if I can disprove them using either EQ game), then I am going to do that.

My suggestion is - rather than blaming everyone else - educate yourself on tab target games and MMORPG's in general before bitching and moaning about what the genre is lacking. I say this because almost everything you complain about is only the case in a small handful of games - yet you speak as if it is the only way an MMO is ever made.

Azherae

George_Black wrote: »

@NishUK you'll never see a Chad playing a bard or a healer. These are classes for people that need to be liked. See? Balance. Yes healer and bards will always be "op" in groups both in pve and pvp, but they wont be the classes that get the spotlight or the volume of kill counts. They might not even get gear from the guild. "Just press the heal button. We need to craft weapons for the dps".

That "logic" about balance should have been obvious without me having to explain every scenario.
Not every class has to be good at everything. And healers and bards most definately wont be fun/good for many, many things.

This one reminds me to once again ask if one has time to discuss our lord and MMORPG Saviour the Tactical Point Gauge. (This isn't a response to you, George, I know you have nothing to prove).

FFXI does not have much PvP, but if we reference just the idea that a class needs to do more damage in PvE but not outside of it, the TP Gauge and the associated 'Skillchain' system works double shift.

A 'Skillchain' is simply 'your special attack which uses Gauge followed mine of a specific property and now does additional separate multiplied damage'. This has rippling effects.

1. Classes that are meant to do big DPS have to wait until their Gauge is full or strategically fill it before a fight, while still being mechanically strong DPS.
2. Classes can be desired for their ability to 'open' and 'close' Skillchains regardless of their individual damage as long as it is helpful for them to gain TP Gauge, making DPS more varied (e.g. Monks and Ninjas do not 'Skillchain' together easily, so a Monk is not a preferred DPS when you have a Ninja already, even during those times when they would have high solo DPS).
3. In 1v1 PvP, only the Weapon Skill balance matters. Bards and Mages can have 'weaker' Weapon Skills normally used to 'open' Skillchains, heavy hitters can have 'stronger' ones (this is more complex based on stat builds that you could move around). With no 'Skillchain' damage to worry about, you can balance this more while still having extra 50-100% Skillchain damage for coordinated PvE.
4. The RP is slightly cooler. Repetitive, sure, but 'lining up the Skillchain', 'looking for the timing where nothing will interrupt it', choosing the right one based on the situation and which two party members are 'ready', etc.
5. Stat multipliers and attack buff skills are ALSO temporarily '50% stronger' even if they are short lived, an ability may be activated 'before closing the Skillchain' to maximize damage, particularly if the game actually compares attack vs Defense or has things like 'your next hit ignores 50% of enemy Armor'. Against strong enemies this can result in a 100% damage increase to the skill, and therefore a 100% increase to the Skillchain, creating a difference of 150% more damage to the skill 'As a closer in PvE' while rewarding anyone who can successfully do it without being stopped or disrupted in PvP, but normally they just get 'more damage vs Tanks' and 'the standard bonus with no Skillchain'.
6. Enemy Tanks in general can have higher mitigation and still be balanced, as they're the class most likely to actually stand there long enough to either get hit with a Skillchain, or stand there long enough for attackers to build the Gauge.

Anyways while I'm on the subject of FFXI and Healers, I randomly offer the glory of https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Noble's_Tunic .

Gimme! I don't care if I have to fight the Ashes equivalent of King Behemoth 20 times and then gather materials for another 10 'Horizontal' enchants. (Out of respect for the Goddess of Creation I will not fight any Suzaku unless requested),

Ludullu

We need a contrarian mmo! (if there isn't one already) Healer's healing depends on his dps. Tank's tanking depends on him buffing everyone else. DPS' damage depends on how much damage they themselves took.

The fight interaction would be smth like this:

the healer class DPSes the boss, which cuts off chunks and sprays blood from the boss opposite to Healer's location
Whoever stands opposite the Healer gets mob guts and blood all over them, which agroes the boss onto them
DPS classes would have to keep their position opposite the healer, while healer's gotta move himself due to boss mechanics and because his skills do biggest dmg to the boss' sides
In order to properly control/buff DPS classes' output, the Tank will have to give out proper rotations of dmg mitigation and enhancement buffs, while not getting blood/chunks on himself, cause he's a stickboi who'd immediately die from one hit
All of this is happening under the usual environmental hazards and all that other shit from pve fights in other games

The healer is doing damage instead of the usual "click heal to be useful", the tank is buffing and avoiding any dmg instead of "stand in one place and take all the damage", the dps are taking all the damage instead of "DON'T FUCKING STAY IN THE RED, YOU DUMBASS!!@#!@$"

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

We need a contrarian mmo! (if there isn't one already) Healer's healing depends on his dps. Tank's tanking depends on him buffing everyone else. DPS' damage depends on how much damage they themselves took.

The fight interaction would be smth like this:
the healer class DPSes the boss, which cuts off chunks and sprays blood from the boss opposite to Healer's location

Whoever stands opposite the Healer gets mob guts and blood all over them, which agroes the boss onto them

DPS classes would have to keep their position opposite the healer, while healer's gotta move himself due to boss mechanics and because his skills do biggest dmg to the boss' sides

In order to properly control/buff DPS classes' output, the Tank will have to give out proper rotations of dmg mitigation and enhancement buffs, while not getting blood/chunks on himself, cause he's a stickboi who'd immediately die from one hit

All of this is happening under the usual environmental hazards and all that other shit from pve fights in other games

The healer is doing damage instead of the usual "click heal to be useful", the tank is buffing and avoiding any dmg instead of "stand in one place and take all the damage", the dps are taking all the damage instead of "DON'T FUCKING STAY IN THE RED, YOU DUMBASS!!@#!@$"

Man, I need more people to play FFXI...

Honestly the only reason I'm here is because I know Jeff did and even if he's gone, I must annoy people with this!

But yes, we have this game already. Not as 'extreme' as this, lol, but this playstyle is a thing.

PenguinPaladin

I think a classes more suited to pvp over pve have a place in ashes to begin with.... the social structure is so important for this game to succeed. Having classes that thrive as bandits or mercenaries just furthers that social structure and gives players more unlabled roles to fulfill

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

Man, I need more people to play FFXI...

Honestly the only reason I'm here is because I know Jeff did and even if he's gone, I must annoy people with this!

But yes, we have this game already. Not as 'extreme' as this, lol, but this playstyle is a thing.

Yeah, I've heard a lot of good things about FF11. Wish I'd played it back then.

Dygz

Shoelid wrote: »

While WoW can balance for these things with PvP talents and Trinket stamina boosts, AOC can't do that.

Nor would we want them to.
That's how we get the flavor of the month re-balance because "QQ!! Rogues are OP!!"
"Now, Mages are too OP!!"

Dygz

NishUK wrote: »

Can someone make EQ3, please...

I mean...
Ashes is basically the successor of EQNext.
Except the AI will not be as ambitious as StoryBricks.

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