Protecting Our Casuals: Gear

One big concern I have for AoC is that gear will end up providing too much power. AoC is already a game that will greatly reward those who play a lot which is why I believe that it is imperative for gear to only account for at most 20-30% of a character's power.

People will enjoy grinding out their gear even if each piece gives small increments of power increase. These small increments of power increase will allow the bulk of the population to not feel like they are so out geared that they cannot even come close to competing. This is very important because when those casual players will die over and over to a hardcore player that severely outgears them without any chance of fighting back, they will be very likely to just quit. Hardcore players will have other advantages (gold, skill, etc.) anyway because they play a lot more and there is no reason to further widen the gap between casual and hardcore players.

Please understand that I am not against rewarding those who invest more time into the game. I am just suggesting that their reward should not create such a great disparity between them and casual players. I truly believe that this can greatly help the health of the game and its population.

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Okeydoke

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

This would be what i would think would turn off a casual... if everything ends up taking strategy, and forethought, and effort, it stops being a game.

This is precisely what I NEED in a game for it to feel like a game. Without strategy, forethought and effort all I'm doing is pressing buttons on my mouse and keyboard.

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

And as much as I agree with what Steven says, I also want this game to survive for longer than 2 months.

We all do, that is why we are all here discussing things.

You see Ashes survival as being related to its PvP performance. I see it as being related to its PvE performance.

Even if the game puts PvE first and leaves PvP to the background, I believe the PvP will be better than if they attempt to prioritize PvP.

If they prioritize PvP, only PvP players will play. As such, the game is doomed to the same fate as every other game that has only attracted the PvP crowd.

If they put PvE playera first, that means PvE players will play the game more. This means more PvP targets for PvP'ers.

I see no logic behind why PvP in Ashes could sustain the game. This has rarely ever happened, and there has never been a PvP game in the West that has had the sustained population retention that a game like Ashes would need to remain viable for 5 years.

Basically, history and evidence suggests that anyone wanting Ashes to have a long viable life should be arguing for a strong PvE game, so that PvP'ers have something to PvP over.

CROW3

Yep, I agree @Noaani. In an mmo PvE is the stage and only part of what happens on that stage is PvP.

A primary focus on PvP would just be an FPS in disguise.

NishUK

@CROW3

@Noaani

Disgusting mentalities, I'm sorry. Simply the west doesn't deem mmorpg's that have only raid and roaming around quest PvE fun enough, ofc with WoW before 2010 there was literally no other competition in the market from other genre's, so great evidence of success you damn fools...

1 million unique players bombed New World, Ashes can take them all in and impress them with its wonder instead of like NW being locked in some bubble of "opt in and opt out" and a super half baked economy, which a lot of western mmo's suffer from.

The stubbornness to continue being away from Korea mmo philosophy and their unique success is staggering, I'm glad I'm not as closed minded as you two.

Meanwhile 10's of millions of players playing FPS/Moba/Sport games, a good portion of them I bet would love a change of pace, instead of looking at something like WoW and thinking "cartoon, old, no combat (visually), it got competition? ("arena only") ye fuk that".

SirChancelot

Chroninho wrote: »

About lot of wrong information here: https://youtu.be/H0LQSMT83L0?t=3275

Minute 54:35 of the video

I recommend watching at least 4 minutes after the time is marked, soo many wrong information and ideas based on 0 facts in this thread.

And WHY would you want to "protect" casuals?
Protecting means giving benefits, it is literally that.

IN a PVP situation Steven wants 3 things to factor in:
1) Your SKILLPLAY(how GOOD you are)
2)Your Build/class (How GOOD you create your character for that matchup)
3)Your Gear (How much time you invested to be strong.

He already stated long ago more than once that he want all these 3 things (its on this video that I posted above there too btw).

Steven dosent want a CASUAL game, the game is based on Risk vs Reward.
Steven dosent want a themepark game to make easier if you dont have time.
Steven dosent want a game where everyone wins.
He even mentioned in his last live, Ashes of Creation is a game that few will WIN and many will Lose.
That is how it works, for someone to win, others must lose.
This is how competition works, either you like it or not.

But if you dont like it is totally fine, but as STEVEN already said, ASHES OF CREATION IS NOT A GAME FOR EVERYONE.
It is NOT being created to be a game for everyone.

Also please note this is not even my opinion, what I stated above are either direct quotes or what Steven already said multiple time.

No idea why people keep posting daily a lot of "ideas" thinking that he will change his game just because you dont agree with him.
You dont have to agree with him, and thats totally fine, but probably the game that you seek and want to play will not be AoC if thats the case.

While you're right, he said those things and feels that way.
If the game doesn't have enough for everyone, or has too high of barrier to entry for people behind the curve, or is too one sided against the casuals for them to have fun...
Then game will fail.
I'm not just saying that to just be negative. This game looks like it will be designed in a way that requires bigger and more active populations. Since the growth and potential decay of nodes is effectively based off of player activity. If people do nothing but get crushed by the try'hards they're going to quit and find something more enjoyable to spend there time on. I don't know if that top 10% of winners will be able to play without the other 90% losers if they all pack up and go find something more rewarding. The game will have to give even the losers something to keep them working forward.

Think of it with a game like LoL, if you logged in and only lost matches every time you played how long do you think you would actually play the game?

I don't think anyone is saying IS needs to change their whole gameplan, just that there has to be some middle ground...
Personally I just don't want ashes to do what Wildstar did, and scare off majority of their potential player base by being too targeted towards high end players....

Azherae

SirChancelot wrote: »

I don't think anyone is saying IS needs to change their whole gameplan, just that there has to be some middle ground...
Personally I just don't want ashes to do what Wildstar did, and scare off majority of their potential player base by being too targeted towards high end players....

This, BUT. Gear might as well be the deciding factor in EITHER situation.

If the Combat is simplistic but balanced for 8, then gear might as well decide it, because simplistic combat is moreso about how it feels for the obvious things to happen. If it feels satisfying, it won't matter that there's not much skill involved.

If the Combat is complex but balanced for 8, then the less skilled players are going to NEED gear to be weird to have a chance at deciding it. This applies to PvE moreso than PvP, but it's still the same. High level gamers are terrifying relative to the distance in ability between them and players with less time to dedicate or who are just trying to enjoy being in a world.

At least when things are just 'ok, well this sucks, that guy wins when we start bashing each other's heads in because his sword does Fire damage every 5 hits' the answer is 'I need to get some Fire Defense gear', as opposed to the sort of things people have to go through for skill-competitive games.

Afaik Wildstar wasn't even targeted toward high-playtime gamers, it was targeted at high-skill gamers, and everyone else noped out of there REAL quick.

CROW3

NishUK wrote: »

Stuff.

Yeah, I read that a few times and have no idea what you’re trying to say. You seem upset though.

Noaani

NishUK wrote: »

.

Meanwhile 10's of millions of players playing FPS/Moba/Sport games, a good portion of them I bet would love a change of pace, instead of looking at something like WoW and thinking "cartoon, old, no combat (visually), it got competition? ("arena only") ye fuk that".

These players do not want a persistent world PvP game.

They play the games they play specifically BECAUSE there is no persistent world. Non-persistance is literally how ou put player skill up against player skill.

Persistent world games are literally where you put player accomplishment up against player accomplishment. This is the literal reason for having it.

Ashes absolutely will not pull any significant number of MOBA, FPS or sports game players. If the game focuses on PvP to the extent you are assuming/suggesting, it will pull literally that same one million players that New World attracted, which is the same one million that Albion attracted, which is the same one million that BDO attracted, which is the same one million that Archeage attracted, suich is the same one million that thought Crowfall would be the next big thing, which is the same one million that will go to the next game after Ashes.

Great plan for a long lived MMORPG!

NishUK wrote: »

The stubbornness to continue being away from Korea mmo philosophy and their unique success is staggering, I'm glad I'm not as closed minded as you two.

This comment made me laugh.

Yes, you are closed minded. Tou are the one saying Western MMO's need to be more like Korean MMO's deapite the fact that Korean MMO's exist for players that want that, and also despite the fact that such games have proven to not be nearly as successful in the west as they are in Korea.

I (we) have our eyes open, are looking around at what is and is not successful in the West, and are commenting on that. You have your eyes closed, are adamant that the Korean way is the only way, and are branding anyone that doesnt agree with you as being closed minded.

Great work there, buddy. Thumbs up!

Chroninho

SirChancelot wrote: »

Chroninho wrote: »

About lot of wrong information here: https://youtu.be/H0LQSMT83L0?t=3275

Minute 54:35 of the video

I recommend watching at least 4 minutes after the time is marked, soo many wrong information and ideas based on 0 facts in this thread.

And WHY would you want to "protect" casuals?
Protecting means giving benefits, it is literally that.

IN a PVP situation Steven wants 3 things to factor in:
1) Your SKILLPLAY(how GOOD you are)
2)Your Build/class (How GOOD you create your character for that matchup)
3)Your Gear (How much time you invested to be strong.

He already stated long ago more than once that he want all these 3 things (its on this video that I posted above there too btw).

Steven dosent want a CASUAL game, the game is based on Risk vs Reward.
Steven dosent want a themepark game to make easier if you dont have time.
Steven dosent want a game where everyone wins.
He even mentioned in his last live, Ashes of Creation is a game that few will WIN and many will Lose.
That is how it works, for someone to win, others must lose.
This is how competition works, either you like it or not.

But if you dont like it is totally fine, but as STEVEN already said, ASHES OF CREATION IS NOT A GAME FOR EVERYONE.
It is NOT being created to be a game for everyone.

Also please note this is not even my opinion, what I stated above are either direct quotes or what Steven already said multiple time.

No idea why people keep posting daily a lot of "ideas" thinking that he will change his game just because you dont agree with him.
You dont have to agree with him, and thats totally fine, but probably the game that you seek and want to play will not be AoC if thats the case.

While you're right, he said those things and feels that way.
If the game doesn't have enough for everyone, or has too high of barrier to entry for people behind the curve, or is too one sided against the casuals for them to have fun...
Then game will fail.
I'm not just saying that to just be negative. This game looks like it will be designed in a way that requires bigger and more active populations. Since the growth and potential decay of nodes is effectively based off of player activity. If people do nothing but get crushed by the try'hards they're going to quit and find something more enjoyable to spend there time on. I don't know if that top 10% of winners will be able to play without the other 90% losers if they all pack up and go find something more rewarding. The game will have to give even the losers something to keep them working forward.

Think of it with a game like LoL, if you logged in and only lost matches every time you played how long do you think you would actually play the game?

I don't think anyone is saying IS needs to change their whole gameplan, just that there has to be some middle ground...
Personally I just don't want ashes to do what Wildstar did, and scare off majority of their potential player base by being too targeted towards high end players....

I agree, but the thing is, winning is not the same for everyone.

We have for example:
Harcore PvP players, for them winning is about being better in PvP.
Hardcore PvE players, for them winning is about being faster in PvE content, or doing First stuff like that.

For lot of players they dont really care about "winning" in PvP or PvE, they just want to have fun with their friends in dungeons, doing social in cities, "skin" competition.

In basically any big mmorpg the "hardcore" players are minority, and for sure we can't sacrifice the whole game just to make them feel better, otherwise they sooner or later will be left alone.

But the thing is in AoC we have WAYY more things to do besides being the best in PvP or PvE.

We will have those players focused in Crafting, and they will be extremely necessary for both PvE and PvP players for example.
We will have players who may like a bit PvP but they are dont want or dont have too much time to play.
But they can still be really useful in Sieges for example, as Steven already said by helping to repair structures and manage siege weapons.
Or maybe grouping together in a lot of players to help protect a caravan, or maybe doing in groups caravans.
Ashes is also not being designed to have overpowered players, so we are not suppose to expect one hardcore player fully geared to wipe parties alone, so numbers will be a factor for sure.

Also in some nodes, you can help develop them or even beying mayor by being the players who most contributed with quests (divine nodes if i'm not mistaken) the mayor is chosen based on quest contribution.

Even tho I not explicit said but thats what I meant.
The game dont have to give extra advantages for players to feel part of it because it already HAS many mechanics which will include all casuals.
Even in this forum we have players that already said, for them Winning is about looks for example.

Besides how "hardcore" this game may seem with lot of these mechanics of PvP, skillplay, death penalty I really do believe the game has a LOT of potential for casual players.
And you are totally right, the game does need stable population to work, but this is also why the game has many other mechanics besides those I mentioned above.

Noaani

Chroninho wrote: »

I agree, but the thing is, winning is not the same for everyone.

The thing with subjective winning or losing (achieving a goal you set for yourself) is that it will be impacted by by objective winning or losing (someone attacking you).

Sure, some players will prefer to craft - they will still need to deal with PvP though. If they have their materials stored in the bank and go to pick them up to craft with, someone could attack them while they are en route and take half of those materials. Even if you are within a node, you are still subject to PvP.

So sure, you may say "just have all your materials in your freehold and craft there". The problem is, you need to transport those materials to your freehold in order for them to get there.

Now, while winning may be subjective for many people, losing is more objective than that. If you lose more materials than you are able to afford to purchase, that is a fairly objective case of losing.

NishUK

CROW3 wrote: »

Yeah, I read that a few times and have no idea what you’re trying to say. You seem upset though.

You just have a limited view, keep agree'ing with people plainly.

CROW3

A gatherer in an open pvp world like Ashes, could expand their subjective definition of winning to include preparation and techniques to avoid objective losses. Not entirely dissimilar from traveling or exploring in survival games like Valheim, The Forest, or DayZ.

Dygz

NishUK wrote: »

1 million unique players bombed New World, Ashes can take them all in and impress them with its wonder instead of like NW being locked in some bubble of "opt in and opt out" and a super half baked economy, which a lot of western mmo's suffer from.

I dunno what this is supposed to mean.
Lots of people gave NW a try. It's not an MMORPG.
How many people are still playing it?

NishUK wrote: »

The stubbornness to continue being away from Korea mmo philosophy and their unique success is staggering, I'm glad I'm not as closed minded as you two.

Make that 3, I guess.
But, that's like being upset that some people like American football while other people like soccer.

NishUK wrote: »

Meanwhile 10's of millions of players playing FPS/Moba/Sport games, a good portion of them I bet would love a change of pace, instead of looking at something like WoW and thinking "cartoon, old, no combat (visually), it got competition? ("arena only") ye fuk that".

Yes. And millions of people should continue to enjoy them.
Just because people enjoy American football and some people enjoy soccer doesn't mean I want people trying to play soccer on the football field while I'm playing football.

Hopefully, millions of people will try Ashes of Creation and love playing its RPG features.

Noaani

CROW3 wrote: »

A gatherer in an open pvp world like Ashes, could expand their subjective definition of winning to include preparation and techniques to avoid objective losses. Not entirely dissimilar from traveling or exploring in survival games like Valheim, The Forest, or DayZ.

Indeed they could.

However, would you consider it more likely that a player that wants to primarily be a gatherer would do this, or would go to another game to be a gatherer?

Dygz

CROW3 wrote: »

A gatherer in an open pvp world like Ashes, could expand their subjective definition of winning to include preparation and techniques to avoid objective losses. Not entirely dissimilar from traveling or exploring in survival games like Valheim, The Forest, or DayZ.

Yeah, I mean there are several forms of carebear challenges in MMORPGs, like leveling to max with no kills and/or leveling to max with no deaths.
Success definitely feels like winning.

NishUK

Noaani wrote: »

These players do not want a persistent world PvP game.

They play the games they play specifically BECAUSE there is no persistent world. Non-persistance is literally how ou put player skill up against player skill.

Persistent world games are literally where you put player accomplishment up against player accomplishment. This is the literal reason for having it.

You'll have to wait and see how a person who has properly lived through an actual mmo that relies on player engagement (instead of a raid+content++++ lore "am I reading a book or playing a game?") builds a game that will not discourage players with high end gear that limits competitive involvement.

Infact that is your lousy idea seeing as you want to stomp people just because you played longer than them.

You can carry on speculating all you like, all we can do is see how this goes but the difference between you and me is I'm not mentally choking for the desperate need for some WoW forever lore, quest and 300 different bosses all talking smack with each other, "entertaining".
Steven is an actual mmo player and the world is going to be interactive and systematically built for player drive and without corporate greed behind it some korean devs are likely shedding a tear honestly because these are the games where you feel purpose in, this is maximising online capabilities.

Your shallow view of what mmo's need to be is immature, completely immature.

NishUK

Dygz wrote: »

Hopefully, millions of people will try Ashes of Creation and love playing its RPG features.

You can't even explain RP, all you could do is a google it or say it's your own person experience from Raiding and being forced to work together with people, it's a really basic form of human interaction and linear gameplay.

I wouldn't live in hope if I was you, look at Steven's history with games, he's on the side of expanding player driven systems that are known in South Korea mmo's and cutting away the bullshit entirely.

You don't have that vision in you to expand the genre, you see it as complete for what it already is, that's fine but just try and stop from saying Ashe's will be this super "rpg" focused game (is this ff7??) because you're assuming things from out of thin air.

NishUK

CROW3 wrote: »

Yeah, I read that a few times and have no idea what you’re trying to say. You seem upset though.

CROW3 wrote: »

All of my scaled raid experience is tab as a hunter & tank in WoW for 16 or so years.

You know how to waste time, good stuff. I'm sure your view will be valuable.

CROW3

"Noaani wrote: »

However, would you consider it more likely that a player that wants to primarily be a gatherer would do this, or would go to another game to be a gatherer?

I think it greatly depends on how clear Intrepid makes it that Verra is dangerous to explore, and how much players believe them before they buy the game.

I can see both happening. My hope would be that players rise to the challenge.

Dygz wrote: »

Yeah, I mean there are several forms of carebear challenges in MMORPGs, like leveling to max with no kills and/or leveling to max with no deaths.
Success definitely feels like winning.

Heh - I used to set little objectives like that in FPS games too. I bet I could make it to that side of the map without being detected or I bet I could drive a car through the center of a combat zone without dying. This was all BF1942 / BF3 / Insurgency horseplay.

Okeydoke

Noaani wrote: »

However, would you consider it more likely that a player that wants to primarily be a gatherer would do this, or would go to another game to be a gatherer?

Depends on the gatherer. I mean are we talking the alpha chad gatherer, or the beta gatherer?

The beta gatherer, yeah dude might quit for another game. Might not too, just depends on the dude.

The alpha chad gatherer would look at the game as a challenge. He'll learn and adapt. True top tier, end game, pro league, pharaoh warlord gathering.

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