Action combat and PVE

NiKr wrote: »

Yet it led to best pvp in the genre

It led to the best meaningful PvP concept in the genre but I know what you mean

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Sounds like a shit combat system.

But then, we both already knew that.

Yet it led to best pvp in the genre

Yeah, just not the best PvP combat - as I have said to you before.

L2 was a good PvP game because people weren't backing down from PvP like they do in many MMO's these days.

Read the edited post above for context on a good combat system in regards to RNG.

Noaani wrote: »

L2 was a good PvP game because people weren't backing down from PvP like they do in many MMO's these days.

And you know why they did? Because class design RPS system worked well. Because gear was close to each other not only in stat values, but even in additional horizontal ones too. And because some rng here and there brought the lower lvled player and higher lvled player closer to each other when it came to their power lvls.

All of those things led to the thought process of "I might have a chance to beat this guy, so why da hell should I not at least try?"

And I hope AoC's class design leads to the same thoughts in people, on top of the "I'll lose half of the stuff, so I'd better fight back" thinking.

mcstackerson

Noaani wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Luck is what decides if your skill hits or not, which is what they are talking about. Build impacts both systems.

Luck is what makes a no-look headshot hit, or other similar things. Sure, there may be an amount of skill involved, but there is still a lot of luck.

Preparation is what makes your ability land in a tab target game. Sure, there may be an RNG factor in there somewhere, but I have literally never seen an RNG situation in combat in a tab target game which didn't have AT LEAST two factors by which it is influenced, and that influence operates to a greater extent than the RNG. Most such situations where RNG is a factor could have up to 6 or 7 factors that influence it, basically relegating any notion of luck to some sort of fantasy or pre-conceived notion that people have.

Thus, from my perspective, there is as much if not more luck in fast paced action games than there is in tab games.

No-look headshots aren't the only thing you do in a game that requires aiming, they aren't even a thing in the games that have been mentioned in this thread. Even if you consider a no-look headshot luck, it is a skill players can practice and get better at.

No one is arguing that RNG is the only thing that effects the outcome of the engagement but it does impact the outcome of an ability, which is what some don't like. In a "fast paced" action game, if you miss an ability, you missed it because you, the player, didn't execute it right. In a tab game, that is taken out of your hands and decided by a dice roll, which is what some people don't like and why they say it's dependent on luck.

In a fast paced action game, outcome is determined by player's ability. In a tab game, RNG is used to determine outcome, which is luck since the outcome of that roll is something you can't impact. Yes, you can change your build to augment what you consider a success but you have no impact on the roll itself.

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

L2 was a good PvP game because people weren't backing down from PvP like they do in many MMO's these days.

And you know why they did? Because class design RPS system worked well. Because gear was close to each other not only in stat values, but even in additional horizontal ones too. And because some rng here and there brought the lower lvled player and higher lvled player closer to each other when it came to their power lvls.

All of those things led to the thought process of "I might have a chance to beat this guy, so why da hell should I not at least try?"

And I hope AoC's class design leads to the same thoughts in people, on top of the "I'll lose half of the stuff, so I'd better fight back" thinking.

But this thought process will also result in the thought of "why bother with any of that PvE content? the pitiful improvements in gear from it are not worth the time and effort me and my guild would need to put in".

And this is the crux of the issue - you simply can not have both. You either have a game with a healthy PvE progression, or you have a game where there is little gear gap for PvP.

There is literally no middle ground here - which again is why I have said for years that this game is a conglomeration of contradictions.

Don't forget, Intrepid want this game to have real PvE - that is as important to this game as real PvP is. L2 did not have real PvE.

Noaani wrote: »

Yeah, just not the best PvP combat - as I have said to you before.

L2 was a good PvP game because people weren't backing down from PvP like they do in many MMO's these days.

waaaaat is that summary about?

People geninuely needed other to succeed, is, a suitable summary. "I ain't backing down", I've known many 100's of people from that game that aren't ego'ing or oozing the pvp "bitchness" you think they do. PvP is just part of the parcel of a real ow game and L2 incorperated that so naturally, they had their own penalty/corruption system and a growing and interesting guild system.

L2 was made before WoW's release, it's nothing impressive but if you keep staring at something like "combat fluidity" alone which you keep on raving about like an addict you won't see the scope of the system at all.

Just statement after statement from you, it's just straight out immature and disrespectful to other projects work and other peoples long term experiences, especially when they're trying their best to explain to you the systems involved.

Noaani wrote: »

But this thought process will also result in the thought of "why bother with any of that PvE content? the pitiful improvements in gear from it are not worth the time and effort me and my guild would need to put in".

And this is the crux of the issue - you simply can not have both. You either have a game with a healthy PvE progression, or you have a game where there is little gear gap for PvP.

There is literally no middle ground here - which again is why I have said for years that this game is a conglomeration of contradictions.

Don't forget, Intrepid want this game to have real PvE - that is as important to this game as real PvP is. L2 did not have real PvE.

At the end of the day any pve is just grind. Be it simplistic grind of L2 or the grind where you bash your head against a difficult boss for several hours/days/weeks until you beat it and get the reward. And you know what each and every pvper with low gear gap in L2 did? Grinded mobs for fucking months. Non-stop. Just grind grind grind. Now replace that mob grind with them trying to beat a boss and you'll have yourself a happy little Ashes.

Oh also, people grinded mobs for the new gear even though they knew that the gear itself won't suddenly make them invulnerable. Yes, they'll be stronger, but not by much. And still they were super happy if they dropped a whole piece of gear or if the finally gathered the 0.5% chance recipe that they needed.

NishUK wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Yeah, just not the best PvP combat - as I have said to you before.

L2 was a good PvP game because people weren't backing down from PvP like they do in many MMO's these days.

waaaaat is that summary about?

People geninuely needed other to succeed, is, a suitable summary. "I ain't backing down", I've known many 100's of people from that game that aren't ego'ing or oozing the pvp "bitchness" you think they do. PvP is just part of the parcel of a real ow game and L2 incorperated that so naturally, they had their own penalty/corruption system and a growing and interesting guild system.

L2 was made before WoW's release, it's nothing impressive but if you keep staring at something like "combat fluidity" alone which you keep on raving about like an addict you won't see the scope of the system at all.

Just statement after statement from you, it's just straight out immature and disrespectful to other projects work and other peoples long term experiences, especially when they're trying their best to explain to you the systems involved.

What?

Are you high?

I think I have mentioned combat fluidity once on these forums, and it was me saying that WoW is probably the best at it in regards to tab target MMO's. I have not raved on about it at all, because it is not an overly important thing to me (fluidity generally means you don't have many options, I prefer options).

Yeah, L2 incorporated PvP well, that is why I said it was good in terms of PvP due to people in LK2 not backing down like the do in other games. It's combat system was still pretty shit though.

Seriously though, are you high?

Noaani wrote: »

It's combat system was still pretty shit though.

Btw, what in particular do you dislike about it?

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

It's combat system was still pretty shit though.

Btw, what in particular do you dislike about it?

I'll give you two easy things.

The first is PvE only - but the games hate mechanics were out of date when the game launched. There is literally no proximity or orientation mechanic involved at all, among other things that games of the time were doing.

Second, point and click moving. Perfectly fine when not in combat, shit for in combat.

Noaani wrote: »

There is literally no proximity or orientation mechanic involved at all, among other things that games of the time were doing.

Here at the timestamp, is that not an orientation mechanic? Or do you mean smth else? Classes have those kinds of abilities too.

And is proximity smth like "you get hit for 100 if you're 5 meters away from the attacker, but you get hit for 50 if you're 10m away?" They added a reverse of that for archers in a later update, but yeah, outside of that there's not really any proximity play.

Noaani wrote: »

Second, point and click moving. Perfectly fine when not in combat, shit for in combat.

Yeah, I can definitely see how people could dislike it. Though for me it was more about fast skill usage and reaction times, because ttk was really short and cast speeds really fast (and no gcd) so you didn't really have time to dance around the place with your WASD.

mcstackerson

Noaani wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

L2 was a good PvP game because people weren't backing down from PvP like they do in many MMO's these days.

And you know why they did? Because class design RPS system worked well. Because gear was close to each other not only in stat values, but even in additional horizontal ones too. And because some rng here and there brought the lower lvled player and higher lvled player closer to each other when it came to their power lvls.

All of those things led to the thought process of "I might have a chance to beat this guy, so why da hell should I not at least try?"

And I hope AoC's class design leads to the same thoughts in people, on top of the "I'll lose half of the stuff, so I'd better fight back" thinking.

But this thought process will also result in the thought of "why bother with any of that PvE content? the pitiful improvements in gear from it are not worth the time and effort me and my guild would need to put in".

And this is the crux of the issue - you simply can not have both. You either have a game with a healthy PvE progression, or you have a game where there is little gear gap for PvP.

There is literally no middle ground here - which again is why I have said for years that this game is a conglomeration of contradictions.

Don't forget, Intrepid want this game to have real PvE - that is as important to this game as real PvP is. L2 did not have real PvE.

Gear does not improve the quality of a PvE activity based on the amount of power rewarded, it's just an incentive to do it. It's not like you can take a boring boss fight, improve the drops, and suddenly the boss is fun.

People also don't play a game because of how powerful the gear rewards are. It's not like them doubling the stats on the gear in the current wow raids would increase the sub count.

GW2 and ESO both don't have high gear scaling but people still do the content. The legendary gear in GW2 isn't even a vertical improvement over the previous item rarity, it just gives the player the convenience of allowing them to swap stats on the fly. ESO does a lot with horizontal progression through its set effects which gives more build options. It's also becoming more common now for people to be motivated by things like cosmetics and achievements instead of power.

I don't think people need extreme jumps in power to incentivize them to do content and most definitely don't think it has any effect on how "real" the PvE is.

@Noaani L2 did have real PvE, it had really hard PvE you could never solo and you pretty much always needed the trinity group to tackle and for the legendary bosses around the world you needed 6+ 9 man trinity parties.

The game was released in 2003, what did you want back then??

It's a bit hard to give distinctions on what is "real", I say a "real" mmo to define a game that isn't mostly a solo player gameplay experience + party with a handful of randomers to complete 75% or more of the game. Ofc you, you always focus too heavily the supposed "RPG" element, which is an extremely vague term but as long as people come through character creator and make their own name, then it is one (which means the whole "isn't an mmorpg" is a defensive argument used by the immature. change my mind).

NishUK wrote: »

L2 did have real PvE, it had really hard PvE you could never solo and you pretty much always needed the trinity group to tackle and for the legendary bosses around the world you needed 6+ 9 man trinity parties.

The game was released in 2003, what did you want back then??

Noaani wants EVERQUEST!

But outside of that L2 really didn't have much of PvE. You just stood in one place and unloaded onto the boss/mob. There weren't any complex mechanics or intricate combat designs for mobs. Pretty much all bosses were just thiccque dmg piñatas.

PenguinPaladin

What if ashes became one of those auto combat games where you just hit the fight button.... maybe that is the true hybrid action/tab system everyone is waiting for

Azherae

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

What if ashes became one of those auto combat games where you just hit the fight button.... maybe that is the true hybrid action/tab system everyone is waiting for

Spreadsheet PvP only!

Auto-fight button so you can solo mobs while looking at your spreadsheets!

Open the game up to people who aren't programmers able to have their spreadsheets auto-scroll, update, and respond to voice commands. Bring spreadsheet gaming to the PEOPLE!

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

What if ashes became one of those auto combat games where you just hit the fight button.... maybe that is the true hybrid action/tab system everyone is waiting for

there is auto play, it's called playing then luck into gear and then it's "playing my ass for me" that you're hoping for ;P

NiKr wrote: »

But outside of that L2 really didn't have much of PvE. You just stood in one place and unloaded onto the boss/mob. There weren't any complex mechanics or intricate combat designs for mobs. Pretty much all bosses were just thiccque dmg piñatas.

.......

It still needed trinity parties, you didn't need to shout about how lame enemies were god damn dude! You know as well as I do their are people with monocles in this forum sipping on their cups of tea, stroking their moustaches and defining what a true intellectual PvE experience is.

Dygz

Babes in Toyland