Action combat and PVE

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

What if ashes became one of those auto combat games where you just hit the fight button.... maybe that is the true hybrid action/tab system everyone is waiting for

Wanna know the funniest thing ever? There's like 5-6 versions of Lineage(s) that all have full auto-battle and auto-pvp and auto-questing. And that shit is making NCsoft literal billions. Fucking Koreans and Chinese players dumping all their money into this shit and then we have 0 good non-p2w games coming from the east. smh my god damn head.

PenguinPaladin

NishUK wrote: »

You know as well as I do their are people with monocles in this forum sipping on their cups of tea, stroking their moustaches and defining what a true intellectual PvE experience is.

I feel attacked

NiKr wrote: »

NishUK wrote: »

It still needed trinity parties, you didn't need to shout about how lame enemies were god damn dude! You know as well as I do their are people with monocles in this forum sipping on their cups of tea, stroking their moustaches and defining what a true intellectual PvE experience is.

I meaaaan, it is what it is

Wait, are we not allowed to do that?

I'm being serious here because this argument seems pretty disingenuous.

Easy games are easy. Maybe not to everyone, but you CAN measure this, right? Do we have to dismiss all of this in favor of subjectivity? If 80% of MMORPGs do offer meaningful PvE challenge and 20% offer much less challenge, even if we don't disqualify those 20% as 'not MMORPGs', can't we at least say 'these games don't have 'real' PvE'?

Azherae wrote: »

Easy games are easy. Maybe not to everyone, but you CAN measure this, right? Do we have to dismiss all of this in favor of subjectivity? If 80% of MMORPGs do offer meaningful PvE challenge and 20% offer much less challenge, even if we don't disqualify those 20% as 'not MMORPGs', can't we at least say 'these games don't have 'real' PvE'?

No argument here

pretty sure Nish is joking too. Or at least I hope he is, cause L2's pve was definitely super easy, when it comes to mechanics and features. Yes, you needed a party to farm it properly, but that's only because mobs are thiccque as hell and hit like trucks.

I need a definition of difficult PvE though!

I will try and stay composed without laughing but it better not be "avoid the colored donuts" that ff14 provides.

What @NiKr failed to mention though, was in L2 you wanted to form a party that was grinding/doing bosses optimally, so it's not like it's that easy (especially when you organize a party to pull multiple rooms etc), you needed everyone to work properly otherwise you would feel demoralised and there was plenty of that going on.

NishUK wrote: »

I will try and stay composed without laughing but it better not be "avoid the colored donuts" that ff14 provides.

Ya bet ya ass it is "avoid the colored donuts"

NishUK wrote: »

I need a definition of difficult PvE though!

I will try and stay composed without laughing but it better not be "avoid the colored donuts" that ff14 provides.

What @NiKr failed to mention though, was in L2 you wanted to form a party that was grinding/doing bosses optimally, so it's not like it's that easy (especially when you organize a party to pull multiple rooms etc), you needed everyone to work properly otherwise you would feel demoralised and there was plenty of that going on.

Well I can give you a thing I consider to be a definition.

Meaningful difficult PvE subjects the player to decision-making relative to the actions taken by the enemy. And I don't mean 'uhh... should I dodge this attack or stand here and take damage for not much benefit?'

If you could write a script/macro to do it and the script did NOT need to explicitly check the status of the enemy, then it would not count as meaningful PvE to me. And that's not even just because I think it would be easy. If a game has scriptable PvE in this era, someone will script it, and then it won't matter because a large amount of the 'players' on the game will be bots anyway.

But I can tell you as a person who can write such scripts (for simpler games, I don't do MMO ones), one does that when the game is busywork. When you do not NEED to make decisions, so you don't feel like you're really playing. Then you can at least 'challenge yourself' by writing up a small AI to do the fighting for you while you look for some other challenge.

This is HARDER when grouping is required, but not so much so that one wouldn't just write X number of scripts for 'weak PvE games'.

BDO for example has weak PvE on most mobs. One CAN write a script for it if you have the underlying skills of how to control the camera and character correctly. Not everywhere, though. There are about... 3 mid level zones where your script would at least get thrown off and start to fail. I personally, as a Monocle Wearing member of the Harder PvE Plz Club, avoid all other zones.

Azherae wrote: »

This is HARDER when grouping is required, but not so much so that one wouldn't just write X number of scripts for 'weak PvE games'.

Iirc I haven't seen a single location in L2 that didn't have bots. Ok, maybe one location, but even then it would highly depend on how optimal of a farm we're talking about. Cause the most optimal is to gather a shitton of mobs and correctly deal with them through particular skills, while constantly being on the verge of death (and sometimes even dying). And you grind that one spot until you go up several tiers of gear (mainly from those mobs) and can move onto instance boss farming for top lvl gear.

So in other words - L2 is easy

@Azherae well you can make enemies do random and meaningfully impactful actions out of their skill list or where rng land rates have devastingly strong debuffs, I mean I experienced this in Ultima Online PvE.

I have a preference for a handful of "Elite mobs" vs packs and packs of cannon fodder ones, although where to draw the line on, in an open world experience:

- Casuals/Average players enjoying their "PvE Might" experience.
IE "I'm slaying! I'm slaying them all, I'm saving the town!" as apposed to "crap, everywhere is rock hard and I am nothing without allies! Am I even an upcoming hero?".

- Hard PvE around every corner alongside "player/guild disputes"/PvP.
Experienced and dedicated players will enjoy such high octane or escape-ful action but it's certainly not relaxing and how will this fair with the casual/average audience.

Obviously there's no issue with deeper cave/dungeons whatever being rock hard, I mean if you got there you've likely dealt with all riff raff/player attackers/guilds most likely but what kind of balance makes for a great OW PvE experience is what I question.

But ultimately I hope players are happy relying on each other and there's enough polished slice of life/economy activities that are addictive, even to a less dedicated audience

NishUK wrote: »

@Azherae well you can make enemies do random and meaningfully impactful actions out of their skill list or where rng land rates have devastingly strong debuffs, I mean I experienced this in Ultima Online PvE.

I have a preference for a handful of "Elite mobs" vs packs and packs of cannon fodder ones, although where to draw the line on, in an open world experience:

- Casuals/Average players enjoying their "PvE Might" experience.
IE "I'm slaying! I'm slaying them all, I'm saving the town!" as apposed to "crap, everywhere is rock hard and I am nothing without allies! Am I even an upcoming hero?".

- Hard PvE around every corner alongside "player/guild disputes"/PvP.
Experienced and dedicated players will enjoy such high octane or escape-ful action but it's certainly not relaxing and how will this fair with the casual/average audience.

Obviously there's no issue with deeper cave/dungeons whatever being rock hard, I mean if you got there you've likely dealt with all riff raff/player attackers/guilds most likely but what kind of balance makes for a great OW PvE experience is what I question.

Ok. Well I gave you my lower limit, and while an owPvP game definitely helps, and Intrepid's approach to botting will definitely help on top of that, the point was clear enough I hope.

Frankly I cannot AFFORD to care what some players find too difficult. If they are less EFFECTIVE than Bots, then the game will be normally be a botfest. That means that in my mind, the lower threshold of reasonable difficulty for an MMO is 'the point at which a player who doesn't understand scripting can just download a bot, move to a position, and run it sometimes and expect to be fine'.

I personally don't play Power Fantasy games, so I wouldn't really understand. If Ashes turns out to be one, then I won't play. And to expand on that, since it might help you understand what 'RP' means too...

If a group of players has to adapt, together, to an encounter, they experience 'role playing' subconsciously even if they don't talk about it, because the human brain must simulate what the other party members are going to do, in order to be successful. If they simulate incorrectly, usually one of two things happens.

A. They argue about it and the group breaks up.
B. They discuss it (roleplaying, whether in character or not) and update their subconscious understanding of each other.

This is why you'll never find ME on the side of things like 'MOBAs are not MMOs'. I personally consider MOBAs to be PvP RPGs. The lack of persistence is what separates them from what Ashes is, not the Roleplaying part.

So yeah, for future reference, if I talk about 'speed of a game' vs 'RP' it's 'the ability to simulate the actions of others and the time to discuss it if your simulations are wrong'. Some people don't 'RP' by that definition even in MOBAs and that's fine. I just don't see the point of making a game for them.

Azherae wrote: »

This is why you'll never find ME on the side of things like 'MOBAs are not MMOs'. I personally consider MOBAs to be PvP RPGs. The lack of persistence is what separates them from what Ashes is, not the Roleplaying part.

Those are some sacrilegious words in the potential presence of Dygz

Azherae wrote: »

So yeah, for future reference, if I talk about 'speed of a game' vs 'RP' it's 'the ability to simulate the actions of others and the time to discuss it if your simulations are wrong'. Some people don't 'RP' by that definition even in MOBAs and that's fine. I just don't see the point of making a game for them.

I'd say L2 was definite an RP game by that definition. I've had a ton of evenings/days/weeks where I'd discuss my party's actions during encounters (both past and future). We'd discuss better movements and skill usages in-between train pulls and we'd talk about proper pvp engagement in-between each fight. And everyone would have to play their classes' role perfectly to achieve victory. Imo that's as RP as it gets.

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

This is why you'll never find ME on the side of things like 'MOBAs are not MMOs'. I personally consider MOBAs to be PvP RPGs. The lack of persistence is what separates them from what Ashes is, not the Roleplaying part.

Those are some sacrilegious words in the potential presence of Dygz

Azherae wrote: »

So yeah, for future reference, if I talk about 'speed of a game' vs 'RP' it's 'the ability to simulate the actions of others and the time to discuss it if your simulations are wrong'. Some people don't 'RP' by that definition even in MOBAs and that's fine. I just don't see the point of making a game for them.

I'd say L2 was definite an RP game by that definition. I've had a ton of evenings/days/weeks where I'd discuss my party's actions during encounters (both past and future). We'd discuss better movements and skill usages in-between train pulls and we'd talk about proper pvp engagement in-between each fight. And everyone would have to play their classes' role perfectly to achieve victory. Imo that's as RP as it gets.

Everything you've described in your posts indicates that Lineage is in fact HEAVILY RP oriented, which gives me even more hope for Throne and Liberty and Ashes since they both are inspired by it.

Some people are interested in, and good at, doing all of that while staying in character (relative to a character they created with a specific perception of the in-universe interpretations of things). Others are not. I get along with both sets of people.

In the case where someone goes 'Could you stop talking about the game mechanics? Even if you're trying to work it in, I prefer not to talk about them so directly' I apologize, politely excuse myself, and go do something else.

In the case where someone goes 'Why are you talking about game mechanics as if they're real stuff in the world, it's confusing/cringe' I normally tell that person to fuck off and go do something else (yes this is an entirely disproportionate response, fite me)

Everyone else, I'm good with.

Dygz

NiKr wrote: »

I'd say L2 was definite an RP game by that definition. I've had a ton of evenings/days/weeks where I'd discuss my party's actions during encounters (both past and future). We'd discuss better movements and skill usages in-between train pulls and we'd talk about proper pvp engagement in-between each fight. And everyone would have to play their classes' role perfectly to achieve victory. Imo that's as RP as it gets.

MOBAs are not RPGs, but...
Yes, Lineage II is an RPG.

Good stuff Azherae.

Now when is Dygz going to lay the smackdown on a MOBA having nothing to do with RP, well, probably shouldn't poke at people who are obsessed with persitent gear to the high heavens

NishUK wrote: »

Good stuff Azherae.

Now when is Dygz going to lay the smackdown on a MOBA having nothing to do with RP, well, probably shouldn't poke at people who are obsessed with persitent gear to the high heavens

Dygz can be considered right in a certain way (for a person who is essentially a pacifist with no competitive instinct). In a MOBA, the character's flow is usually already decided for you and your physical ability and choices is what matters for victory most of the time unless you are going against the 'standard' pretty far, or playing with a team that requires special methods.

I don't know how much Dygz understands about the complexities of MOBAs in terms of 'build adaptation during the match' or 'how one understands a teammate's role and likely direction', but it is definitely true that the 'story being told' within a Predecessor match is based on physical interactions and team play most of the time, and 'Team Play' alone does not constitute "RolePlaying".

It is much easier to avoid group RolePlaying in MOBAs. It's bad for your winrate until you're REALLY GOOD, but it's not hard to avoid it.

Any MMORPG where you can avoid group RolePlaying of the type I've mentioned and it NOT be bad for your WinRate is only an RPG to those people who do character based Roleplaying SEPARATELY. So I'm the 'weird one'. I disqualify some MMORPGs because they absolutely force only character-based Roleplay and not Problem Resolution Roleplay (because it's too easy to resolve any problem), and I accept more games as MMORPGs because of how I perceive Tactical Group Roleplay.

I just realized while typing this that I have no idea if Dygz accepts things like Elite Dangerous as MMORPGs, but I can't think of any reason why not?

Dygz

I don't know that I said a MOBA has nothing to do with RP.
I said a MOBA is not an RPG. And we shouldn't use MOBA combat for MMORPGs.
But...I think that doesn't have much to do with what you've been discussing here.

CROW3

NishUK wrote: »

Now when is Dygz going to lay the smackdown on a MOBA having nothing to do with RP, well, probably shouldn't poke at people who are obsessed with persitent gear to the high heavens

You know someone can dislike something you like without it affecting you, right?

Dygz wrote: »

I don't know that I said a MOBA has nothing to do with RP.
I said a MOBA is not an RPG. And we shouldn't use MOBA combat for MMORPGs.
But...I think that doesn't have much to do with what you've been discussing here.

Well, I really don't know what the distinction is, in your mind, but here's my point if it might help with a specific thing.

Elite Dangerous is about flying a spaceship. Combat is about flying a spaceship to shoot another spaceship.

Because of everything else AROUND that, I consider it an MMORPG, as do apparently many other people.

I've been wondering for a while if when you say 'MMORPG' you only mean 'the one specific combat system that probably originated in Fantasy MMOs'.

I know you have a sorta definition where 'Character Build trumps player Twitch Skills', maybe? But this is true in many MOBAs. It's also true in Elite.

So sometimes when you say 'MOBA combat doesn't belong in MMORPGs', me, from the perspective of literally not consistently being able to tell the difference (let's compare L2 vs LoL for example) can't reach the point of understanding of your perception that I would need to have any productive conversations.

I don't need to try, if you dismiss this question then I'll just return to usual, but figured I'd give it another shot while the conversation was in this region.

CROW3 wrote: »

NishUK wrote: »

Now when is Dygz going to lay the smackdown on a MOBA having nothing to do with RP, well, probably shouldn't poke at people who are obsessed with persitent gear to the high heavens

You know someone can dislike something you like without it affecting you, right?

To be fair, I feel like 'the Feedback and Discussion forum of a game in Active Development' is one of the places where this is SORT OF not true.

Because people who dislike something normally advocate against it. And then usually you must advocate FOR it in order to be considered or it may be overlooked. Sure you could just go 'well let's just all say one thing we like and let the devs figure it out', but idk... seems like a poor approach to me.