Otr wrote: » PenguinPaladin wrote: » 20 minutes working off corruption? Plus 2 hours grinding off that negative exp? I vote for much longer time. Like playing a full weekend to clean your karma. Or you die.
PenguinPaladin wrote: » 20 minutes working off corruption? Plus 2 hours grinding off that negative exp?
Lithion wrote: » and I'm just hoping the corruption system works very well so I don't get ganked every day making the game not fun. The caravan PvP and other PvP you sign up for sounds pretty fun, I just want to be able to do my PvE stuff from time to time and relax.
Otr wrote: » But the one who kills an unflagged player, should not do it just for pleasure. My assumption is that he will stalk the player, observing his actions and finding out if is a valuable target.
Otr wrote: » PenguinPaladin wrote: » Otr wrote: » PenguinPaladin wrote: » 20 minutes working off corruption? Plus 2 hours grinding off that negative exp? I vote for much longer time. Like playing a full weekend to clean your karma. Or you die. I dont accept this answer. I asked how much time you think would desuade you from killing random players. I personally dont see myself killing many people without reason, i dont want to be set back days if it happens once or twice. Your point of veiw of "fuck anyone who would pvp me, they should lose 50 hours of their life" is just closeminded No, I see it as a way of living, on the dark side. Some people might choose to be always a little bit corrupt. Depends how the game is ballanced and what other features might be added to the game. But the one who kills an unflagged player, should not do it just for pleasure. My assumption is that he will stalk the player, observing his actions and finding out if is a valuable target. Possibly more players will be involved, spies, traitors...
PenguinPaladin wrote: » Otr wrote: » PenguinPaladin wrote: » 20 minutes working off corruption? Plus 2 hours grinding off that negative exp? I vote for much longer time. Like playing a full weekend to clean your karma. Or you die. I dont accept this answer. I asked how much time you think would desuade you from killing random players. I personally dont see myself killing many people without reason, i dont want to be set back days if it happens once or twice. Your point of veiw of "fuck anyone who would pvp me, they should lose 50 hours of their life" is just closeminded
NiKr wrote: » And that reasoning makes me think that gatherers won't be bothered all that much, so why should the corruption be overtuned just based on their feedback.
Azherae wrote: » Which I often hear used as a 'threat' against Corruption, but as someone who will absolutely 'Go Red to get stuff', I am going to IGNORE this, ESPECIALLY if I realize most normal wanderers can't kill me. Dampening doesn't apply against Bounty Hunters, right?
NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Which I often hear used as a 'threat' against Corruption, but as someone who will absolutely 'Go Red to get stuff', I am going to IGNORE this, ESPECIALLY if I realize most normal wanderers can't kill me. Dampening doesn't apply against Bounty Hunters, right? But that's the great thing about greens not flagging when attacking a corrupt player. They can in fact just kill you, because you if, as a red, kill them - you'll get doubly fucked. And then continue down that path with each new person. So in Ashes, Reds will most likely run away from greens. So there's always a potential of the PKer getting killed. But as I've suggested before, I'd prefer the corruption removal time be semi-reasonable, but BHs would have a time buffer for a free kill on the ex-PKer and the PKer being unable to flag on the BH(on the first come first serve basis), so the Red always gets punished. I see that as a good addition to the BH system, w/o making going red completely unwanted. Though no one has poked holes in that suggestion, so I dunno if I missed anything when thinking about it.
Azherae wrote: » If your answer to this is 'well someone will beat your group', the question is 'why?' Are they better? What if we're the best around? Are they more relentless? Are they going to keep throwing themselves at us until we are Corrupted ENOUGH that they have a chance? Corrupted enough that it 'recruits an army'? No prob. The question isn't 'will we fall', it's 'how many have to suffer before we fall?'.
Azherae wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Which I often hear used as a 'threat' against Corruption, but as someone who will absolutely 'Go Red to get stuff', I am going to IGNORE this, ESPECIALLY if I realize most normal wanderers can't kill me. Dampening doesn't apply against Bounty Hunters, right? But that's the great thing about greens not flagging when attacking a corrupt player. They can in fact just kill you, because you if, as a red, kill them - you'll get doubly fucked. And then continue down that path with each new person. So in Ashes, Reds will most likely run away from greens. So there's always a potential of the PKer getting killed. But as I've suggested before, I'd prefer the corruption removal time be semi-reasonable, but BHs would have a time buffer for a free kill on the ex-PKer and the PKer being unable to flag on the BH(on the first come first serve basis), so the Red always gets punished. I see that as a good addition to the BH system, w/o making going red completely unwanted. Though no one has poked holes in that suggestion, so I dunno if I missed anything when thinking about it. No, that's not going to work that way either. Because, again, it doesn't work that way now. There IS a 'downside' in PvP in Elite, for example. You can't dock to repair or refuel or restock your weapons at most places. They still don't die. I don't know how to make this point though. I feel like it relies on an experience and belief that most people who are 'okay' with PvP don't have, particularly those who played games at the higher level. I'll just repeat it again. The gap between a competitive player and a casual in a game where the competitive player has put in, say, 1000 hours, is usually so large that the casual stands NO CHANCE WHATSOEVER. By skill alone. I can play a FT50 in SFV against a Bronze player and win 50-0. A Diamond player can do this while choosing RANDOM CHARACTERS to give themselves a handicap. If the concept is 'well people who can't fight well at all should just leave or gather more friends', great. But the first thing I am going to do when Red is call my gang to protect me. I got my gain, they're probably nearby, I don't feel like dying, and I need them to help me burn off the Corruption anyway. Or I just log off, wait for them to get to my location and log on again. Now you've got 7 'Gold' vs 'whoever happens to be around' because I'm certainly not going to do this 'when I know for sure that people who can beat me easily or before my friends arrive are online'. If your answer to this is 'well someone will beat your group', the question is 'why?' Are they better? What if we're the best around? Are they more relentless? Are they going to keep throwing themselves at us until we are Corrupted ENOUGH that they have a chance? Corrupted enough that it 'recruits an army'? No prob. The question isn't 'will we fall', it's 'how many have to suffer before we fall?'.
NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » If your answer to this is 'well someone will beat your group', the question is 'why?' Are they better? What if we're the best around? Are they more relentless? Are they going to keep throwing themselves at us until we are Corrupted ENOUGH that they have a chance? Corrupted enough that it 'recruits an army'? No prob. The question isn't 'will we fall', it's 'how many have to suffer before we fall?'. But that's the same answer to the whole BH system, which is one of the reasons I suggested what I did. In your example, nothing would prevent you from going unpunished, mainly because your whole group of friends is ready to go corrupted for you. But how many such groups are there? Especially considering that with each kill you'll get more and more corruption (either on one player or several). And I can't really answer that question because my experienced is too skewed towards a much less punishing system, so it was completely fine to PK some randos that came to punish our previous PKing. Ashes will definitely be way harsher in such situations. And if I understood your Elite example correctly, it'd be way more punishing than that game too. Another solution to this I could see is victim-dependent stat dampen, where each PK on the same person would either give them much higher defense against their PKer or the PKer itself would be weakened against that particular target. Though I dunno how hard would it be to code that. And this still doesn't solve the issue of group PKing, but that's a whole different beast bordering on harassment.
mcstackerson wrote: » Azherae wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Which I often hear used as a 'threat' against Corruption, but as someone who will absolutely 'Go Red to get stuff', I am going to IGNORE this, ESPECIALLY if I realize most normal wanderers can't kill me. Dampening doesn't apply against Bounty Hunters, right? But that's the great thing about greens not flagging when attacking a corrupt player. They can in fact just kill you, because you if, as a red, kill them - you'll get doubly fucked. And then continue down that path with each new person. So in Ashes, Reds will most likely run away from greens. So there's always a potential of the PKer getting killed. But as I've suggested before, I'd prefer the corruption removal time be semi-reasonable, but BHs would have a time buffer for a free kill on the ex-PKer and the PKer being unable to flag on the BH(on the first come first serve basis), so the Red always gets punished. I see that as a good addition to the BH system, w/o making going red completely unwanted. Though no one has poked holes in that suggestion, so I dunno if I missed anything when thinking about it. No, that's not going to work that way either. Because, again, it doesn't work that way now. There IS a 'downside' in PvP in Elite, for example. You can't dock to repair or refuel or restock your weapons at most places. They still don't die. I don't know how to make this point though. I feel like it relies on an experience and belief that most people who are 'okay' with PvP don't have, particularly those who played games at the higher level. I'll just repeat it again. The gap between a competitive player and a casual in a game where the competitive player has put in, say, 1000 hours, is usually so large that the casual stands NO CHANCE WHATSOEVER. By skill alone. I can play a FT50 in SFV against a Bronze player and win 50-0. A Diamond player can do this while choosing RANDOM CHARACTERS to give themselves a handicap. If the concept is 'well people who can't fight well at all should just leave or gather more friends', great. But the first thing I am going to do when Red is call my gang to protect me. I got my gain, they're probably nearby, I don't feel like dying, and I need them to help me burn off the Corruption anyway. Or I just log off, wait for them to get to my location and log on again. Now you've got 7 'Gold' vs 'whoever happens to be around' because I'm certainly not going to do this 'when I know for sure that people who can beat me easily or before my friends arrive are online'. If your answer to this is 'well someone will beat your group', the question is 'why?' Are they better? What if we're the best around? Are they more relentless? Are they going to keep throwing themselves at us until we are Corrupted ENOUGH that they have a chance? Corrupted enough that it 'recruits an army'? No prob. The question isn't 'will we fall', it's 'how many have to suffer before we fall?'. Are you referring to Elite Dangerous? How often does someone naturally come across another person let a lone a red in space? Correct me if i'm wrong but unless someone is intentionally hunting the red, it would be very rare for them to naturally come across them while the red will be free to pull individuals out of hyperspace and pick them off. I don't think this is a good comparison since in a populated world, it won't be rare for you to see others. Any time you spend keeping yourself safe is time you are wasting. You aren't getting away with it for free if you waste you and your friends time to keeping you safe while you burn off the corruption. Time is also a resource.
Azherae wrote: » According to what I understand from MY side of the world... 40% of players will be willing to do this if they are relatively confident that their group will win. As the game goes on, this number rises because players in these groups enjoy the PvP more, expect it more often (from other similar groups) and therefore become MORE incentivized to fight.
NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » According to what I understand from MY side of the world... 40% of players will be willing to do this if they are relatively confident that their group will win. As the game goes on, this number rises because players in these groups enjoy the PvP more, expect it more often (from other similar groups) and therefore become MORE incentivized to fight. Just to make sure. 40% of players in your circles would be ready to grind mobs for hours upon hours upon hours just over one person going red for whatever their reason was? Cause this is the rough sequence of events I see happening with this system. Let's say it takes an hour of solo farming of mobs of your lvl to remove corruption from one kill. Depending on how Intrepid decides to distribute XP in a party, you might either add or shave off 10 mins to/from that hour. Assuming this corruption clearing is happening with a party - you're most likely farming a location where parties would be leveling (unless there's such a huge variety of farming locations that you can find a completely unknown spot). If there's another party there and they see your PK dude - they can attack him w/o flagging. Literally the whole party of 8 people just targeting one player, which would decrease the ttk by a ton. Even if your party wanted to fight back - they'd have to flag up. And unless your whole party decides to also attack the other party 1 member at a time - your party's ttk will be longer. And that other party can heal freely, while yours will be flagged because they healed/helped the PKer. So now there's potential of another party joining the fight against you, but for now we can assume there's no other party. Most likely within seconds your PKer will be killed by that party and they'll just run away if they don't feel like fighting the rest of your party. Now let's assume your party is such damn chads that they managed to save your PKer, PK the entire enemy party and even managed to spread out the corruption between different people. Now they have to farm for another hour in that same location (or try switching, but then you're just running around as PKers so that's an issue in itself). And now that victim party is yelling across the lands about a whole party of PKers in that location. So on top of any BHs in the vicinity, there's now several parties who might want to go farm your up for some loot (I assume there's parties because you're in a party-farming location). And again, they won't flag up so they won't have a reason to fight each other - you'd be the only target for all of those people. So you're now being hunted by a ton of people. And if by any unreasonably small chance you manage to PK literally all of those parties (at which point I'd say Intrepid have failed party balancing), you're now so damn deep in corruption that it'll take you hours upon hours of farming mobs, all while trying not to kill anyone else so that you don't get even deeper WHILE everyone is still hunting you (even more now, cause at this point you're infamous). I've seen this kind of situation happen in L2 and usually it just ended with a guild TPing in and obliterating the PKers. But Ashes won't have TPing so it'll take a bit longer, but I'd assume the result will be quite similar. And the alternative to all of that is "just kill your party's PKer first and help him remove XP debt", so the punishment would still get dished out. And as for my suggestion for BH buffer, ideally it would track how the PKer lost his corruption, so that "removal by death" would also remove the reward, while removal by XP gain would keep them for 20-30 mins until the first BH kills them.
