DPS Meter Megathread

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Gandalfthegrape

Just copy the wow

Azathoth wrote: »

Would 'failing' a dungeon/raid be on the group, similar to "we all could have done better?" Or would it fall on the shoulders of the one or two players that didnt meet the expected DPS of the raid leader?

Players using the DPS outcome to blame failure on one or two players I think would be missing the point of the team activity.

Group leaders should be mature enough to give a "we failed but it's okay" talk to everyone, and then reach out to the individual players and give them all advice or at least ask them what happened.

Teams shouldn't target specific group members and then everyone pitch in and tell that player what they did wrong and how to "correctly" play their character for raid content.

This is my dilemma with the DPS meters. I think a lot of good points are made for why group/raid leaders should have access to one during those events. I also think a lot of good points are made about the type of players that use this information to kick team members from teams when maybe they just had an off go at things.

Since we can't police those that would have access, nor should we, i think Ashes current stance on not having one is better.

Like all points in this forum, these are just opinions.

Even If i can improve by looking at what other people who are doing well are doing?

GrinningJack

I said this before so I might as well say this again, unless they change something about how any type of numbers are displayed you will still have third party DPS meters, some people already had basic ones in APOC.

Noaani

BCG wrote: »

I said this before so I might as well say this again, unless they change something about how any type of numbers are displayed you will still have third party DPS meters, some people already had basic ones in APOC.

I'm honestly working on the assumption that Steven has kind of admitted defeat in regards to trackers.

I know for a fact that Jeff was more than keen on them, and Margret has talked in the past about difficulties CS have in relation to players not having access to them. I also know a number of others at Intrepid are as pro-tracker as I am (more so, in fact).

So basically, if Steven is listening to any reasoned argument from the people he pays to inform him when making decisions (nor from us scrubs), he will see that combat trackers are by far a boon for any MMO.

However, he won't just outright say any of the above.

Instead, what will happen is that he will say something along the lines of "we're giving you the information we think you need, so there is no need for trackers. However, we can't really tell if you are using one or not, wink wink".

So basically, we will have FFXIV style of tracker acceptance in Ashes.

Vhaeyne

Noaani wrote: »

So basically, we will have FFXIV style of tracker acceptance in Ashes.

The same situation Yohsi-P is in... Say you don't support it to shut the dumb mob of anti-trackers up.

RockyProndoa

Well...i made it about halfway through the entirety of the thread before I gave up, (and admittedly, grew tired of reading basically the same argument over and over), so I'll jump on the bandwagon and throw my two cents in as well.

As a whole, I am pro dps meters, of any kind. I simply can't understand how they don't improve gameplay, or at least, provide the foundation to improve gameplay. I understand there are casual and hardcore gamers alike, the former of which may have little interest in a min/max type of play, however, having the dps meter available doesn't hurt their experience, whereas for the hardcore gamer, it's a seeming necessity. Sure - you may be judged on your dps for Boss/Trial/Dungeon A/X/Z - but perhaps that requirement of xx dps is somewhat of a static requirement to be able to beat said encounter. Your other party members have their investment of time and frankly, it's really not fair to waste their xx hours of play time because you aren't 'pulling your weight' and somehow feel as though you have a 'right' to be there. While you certainly do have a right to play however you like, you also have a right to respect others time and efforts and pulling half the required dps isn't doing that.

Casual gamers, or those disinterested in knowing their dps, certainly don't have to use the meter, but they also should not participate in activities - WITH A GROUP THAT REQUIRES IT. By all means, if you want to gather a group of friends/guildies and leave the requirements out of it have at it, but joining a group with xyz requirements that you don't fit is just, well, disrespectful.

Omitting dps meters from the game is certainly a possibility, however, I don't believe it encourages growth and improvement generically speaking, and to that point, I guess it really boils down to what the game throws at us. Should the encounters be 'beatable' by generic button mashing then I would agree, the dps meters are irrelevant. Should mechanics, timing, and synergies be a thing, I certainly would cast a strong vote in favor of the meters.

Ludullu

Here's my halfcent on the topic. Fuck dps meters

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

Here's my halfcent on the topic. Fuck dps meters

I find this an odd sentiment in relation to a game where rewards are increased based on clearing content well, and combat trackers being the only objective means to understand how well players are doing.

With the systems proposed by Intrepid, no combat tracker would be like having an arena ladder system that rewards the best gear in the game if you are at the top of it, but with no way to see your position on that ladder at all. Or like rewarding players with the highest kill ratio in a match, but not actually showing anyone's kill ratio at all.

It's honestly just stupid.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

With the systems proposed by Intrepid, no combat tracker would be like having an arena ladder system that rewards the best gear in the game if you are at the top of it, but with no way to see your position on that ladder at all.

Wanna hear a funny thing? That's almost exactly how L2's arena worked

The most you could do is to just look at your own points or at some other player's points, but you never saw the full ladder. And at the end of the month, the dude with the most points would get the best weapon in the game (in the earlier updates), super strong abilities and the title of a Hero.

Worked just fine. You had to know your opponents, you had to do your own research, and even then you might've not known who'd be at the top because some guild might've ran their own pretender for the title at the very start of the season or on the very last day, and the guild would run him against their own members and pour points into him in hopes of having the most points by the end of the season.

I'd mention not having dps meters in pve (even though we had the damage numbers), but you'd obviously dismiss L2's pve as trash that doesn't require that kind of knowledge.

Most of the "dps" would just be learned through pvp. You managed to kill a dude in 3 crits instead of 4 after you got a new weapon? Your dps has increased! Congrats.

The burden of figuring out best builds and rotations/buff combos was on the players and not on a simple tool that just tells you the info directly. No one complained about not having dps meters and no one brought other people down for not hitting some arbitrary numbers. People just trusted each other to do their best and, you wouldn't believe it, people somehow did in fact do their best.

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

I'd mention not having dps meters in pve (even though we had the damage numbers), but you'd obviously dismiss L2's pve as trash that doesn't require that kind of knowledge.

L2 had third party combat trackers.

In fact, those people that I played EQ2 with that first informed me that L2 existed, picked EQ2 as their next MMO because the tracker they used was first designed for EQ2 - that is how they heard about the game.

Something else to keep in mind, when L2 launched, even NBL teams weren't using stats effectively - it was that same year (2003) that even they realized how important the right stats were.

Since that time, MMORPG's have moved on. People have realized that having objective data and knowing how to use it is an inherently good thing.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

L2 had third party combat trackers.

From what I've seen they were mainly hp/skill parsers for pvp. I think I mainly used them for auto-potion use. Definitely never heard of them being used in pve outside of seeing the boss' exact hp values (which I think should be the default option in a game). Though maybe it was just the servers I was playing on, who knows.

Noaani wrote: »

Since that time, MMORPG's have moved on. People have realized that having objective data and knowing how to use it is an inherently good thing.

And yet the current biggest pve mmo looks down on them and even had a huge scandal related to the very concept of addons, let alone dps meters. And from what I know FF14's dev team tests their bosses themselves and I'd assume they do it w/o addons, so what people really need to do is to just git gud

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

L2 had third party combat trackers.

From what I've seen they were mainly hp/skill parsers for pvp. I think I mainly used them for auto-potion use. Definitely never heard of them being used in pve outside of seeing the boss' exact hp values (which I think should be the default option in a game). Though maybe it was just the servers I was playing on, who knows.

The ones I am talking about would give a full breakdown of the damage you and your group dealt and received.

Not as detailed as other games of the era, but enough information to know both what is going on, and where to improve.

NiKr wrote: »

And yet the current biggest pve mmo looks down on them and even had a huge scandal related to the very concept of addons, let alone dps meters. And from what I know FF14's dev team tests their bosses themselves and I'd assume they do it w/o addons, so what people really need to do is to just git gud

Combat tracker use in FFXIV is rampant. The only thing they don't like is when players talk about it, which is utterly ridiculous.

They know perfectly well that you simply can not stop combat tracker use (literally no MMORPG has existed without them, going back to UO). Since it is a thing players WILL have, developers may as well work under that assumption.

As to "so what people really need to do is to just git gud", we do, and we use combat trackers to objectively tell us that we have got gud - whereas people that don't use them just kind of guess.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

As to "so what people really need to do is to just git gud", we do, and we use combat trackers to objectively tell us that we have got gud - whereas people that don't use them just kind of guess.

Yeah, and in due time the ones guessing would've come to the same result. So if anything you're just playing an easier game than them. And again, if even the devs can beat their own hardest content w/o that shit - players should be able to do the same.

Though I hope that players somehow learn that devs use dps meters too

that would've been amazing, though I doubt that's the case.

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

So if anything you're just playing an easier game than them.

Playing the game better does not mean playing an easier game. It just means you are better at the game because you are using all the tools available to you.

If you and I are both builders, I have a hammer and you are trying to use the palm of your hand to nail in nails, I am obviously going to be better at building things than you. That doesn't mean I am building easier things, it means I am using proper tools and you are not, and as such I am better.

Perhaps one of the most amusing things I have seen from Intrepid on their live streams was when someone asked about what good feedback is. Margret talked about a complaint she had once where a player said that a specific ability wasn't strong enough. The team went through the ability, looked at the damage it did, how it behaved in various circumstances, and determined that the ability was perfectly fine. The player that complained was actually talking about the look of the ability, not the effect of the ability - and Margret made the comment about how players having objective information about the thing they are wanting tp give feedback on is one of the most important things from a CS perspective.

Steven was just looking overly uncomfortable the entire time - as he knew Margret was basically saying players should have combat trackers.

However, the other thing this story illustrates is that CS use combat trackers to verify ability strength, and so is, and in there is literally no reason at all to assume they aren't used in creating those same abilities, and in developing content those abilities are used with.

I also know for a fact that many (perhaps most) of the staff at Intrepid would rather see players have access to combat trackers. Again, this is something I know for a fact, and is coming from someone that has said in the past that I know players will have access to combat trackers - feel free to connect the dots there.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

If you and I are both builders, I have a hammer and you are trying to use the palm of your hand to nail in nails, I am obviously going to be better at building things than you. That doesn't mean I am building easier things, it means I am using proper tools and you are not, and as such I am better.

I guess I'm just a "hit a nail with my palm until I completely nail it" kinda guy. I'd rather spend a bit more time figuring stuff out on my own, get used to the mechanics/systems/combos and get a better understanding of how they interact with each other, rather than just look at software that directly tells me what the best combo is once I hit the buttons in a particular way.

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

If you and I are both builders, I have a hammer and you are trying to use the palm of your hand to nail in nails, I am obviously going to be better at building things than you. That doesn't mean I am building easier things, it means I am using proper tools and you are not, and as such I am better.

I guess I'm just a "hit a nail with my palm until I completely nail it" kinda guy. I'd rather spend a bit more time figuring stuff out on my own, get used to the mechanics/systems/combos and get a better understanding of how they interact with each other, rather than just look at software that directly tells me what the best combo is once I hit the buttons in a particular way.

See, this is the thing.

A combat tracker isn't able to tell you anything other than what has just happened. If you don't understand the mechanics/systems/combos, then all you are looking at are a bunch of numbers. If you DO understand those same mechanics/systems/combos, then it gives you more information on them than you could possibly get otherwise.

I mean, if I showed you a parse from EQ2, and said something was wrong, you would have literally no idea at all where to start - because you don't understand the mechanics/systems/combos.

A player that uses a combat tracker without knowledge of the game is only using a percentage of that combat tracker (look at that big number!). A player that goes out to learn about the game but doesn't use a combat tracker only knows a percentage of the game.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

See, this is the thing.
A combat tracker isn't able to tell you anything other than what has just happened. If you don't understand the mechanics/systems/combos, then all you are looking at are a bunch of numbers. If you DO understand those same mechanics/systems/combos, then it gives you more information on them than you could possibly get otherwise.

I mean, if I showed you a parse from EQ2, and said something was wrong, you would have literally no idea at all where to start - because you don't understand the mechanics/systems/combos.

A player that uses a combat tracker without knowledge of the game is only using a percentage of that combat tracker (look at that big number!). A player that goes out to learn about the game but doesn't use a combat tracker only knows a percentage of the game.

Then what is the difference between having the tracker and just timing yourself on some random mob w/o a tracker? If we do literally the same things, but I have a list of the things I've done in my head (or hell, even just written on a paper) while you use a 3rd party tool - what advantage does the tracker bring?

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

Then what is the difference between having the tracker and just timing yourself on some random mob w/o a tracker? If we do literally the same things, but I have a list of the things I've done in my head (or hell, even just written on a paper) while you use a 3rd party tool - what advantage does the tracker bring?

If you take all of the information from attacking a mob - every hit you attempt on it and it attempts on you, along with the outcome of each hit, and you put them in a spreadsheet so you can sort them as you see fit, you have a combat tracker.

It's just a really slow one.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

If you take all of the information from attacking a mob - every hit you attempt on it and it attempts on you, along with the outcome of each hit, and you put them in a spreadsheet so you can sort them as you see fit, you have a combat tracker.

It's just a really slow one.

So yeah, like I said, I'm the guy that uses my palm instead of a hammer. We'll come to the exact same result, but I just won't use 3rd party software to do so.

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

If you take all of the information from attacking a mob - every hit you attempt on it and it attempts on you, along with the outcome of each hit, and you put them in a spreadsheet so you can sort them as you see fit, you have a combat tracker.

It's just a really slow one.

So yeah, like I said, I'm the guy that uses my palm instead of a hammer. We'll come to the exact same result, but I just won't use 3rd party software to do so.

In other words, you have no issues with combat trackers.

As a quick question, do you run Windows on your computer?

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

In other words, you have no issues with combat trackers.

I have issues with all the things I've heard associated with them. The only good things I've heard about it could be done w/o them, while all the bad things I've heard about them stem directly from their existence.

Imo it's similar to the party finder discussion. With an automatic party finder, all you're looking for is a role representative, while with chat-based party finding a person could negotiate their place in a party w/o directly fitting the role required. Well at least I've personally invited people that didn't fit the role needed, but still did the job just fine. And I myself was that person many times.

With a dps tracker you're looking for a number within a particular role. And you invite/kick people just based on that number (and I've seen a ton of people complaining about that). While w/o a tracker you're looking for a person who can fulfill that role and, if you think they're not doing their job well enough (which would assume you know how to do it better, instead of just looking at a number), you could discuss their actions with them and teach them to do smth better if you do know how to play their role/class better. And I have done this in L2 too.

And in later updates of L2, once they too added an auto-party finder, people started inviting people based purely on their gear, which is pretty much the same as a dps meter number in L2. In other words, optimization = bad. Reject innovations, return to boomer socialization.

Noaani wrote: »

As a quick question, do you run Windows on your computer?

If you wanna draw a parallel between smth that I do and the tool that I use to do it, windows is not the best way to do it, cause I can't create my own OS while I can track my dmg if I want to. The better parallel would be a calculator and counting in your head or on paper. And I always try to count in my head first, and only if I completely fail to do so would I go to use a calc.

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