DPS Meter Megathread

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Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

With a dps tracker you're looking for a number within a particular role. And you invite/kick people just based on that number (and I've seen a ton of people complaining about that). While w/o a tracker you're looking for a person who can fulfill that role and, if you think they're not doing their job well enough (which would assume you know how to do it better, instead of just looking at a number), you could discuss their actions with them and teach them to do smth better if you do know how to play their role/class better. And I have done this in L2 too.

This isn't how it works.

This kind of thing absolutely does happen in WoW (and basically only WoW), but it isn't a result of combat trackers. It is a result of being able to replace players mid content so easily (the games LFG system porting players directly to you from anywhere in the world).

If the above scenario was an inherent result of combat trackers and nothing else, then it would happen in games like EQ2 that have massive combat tracker use, but absolutely no LFG system like WoW's.

Since it doesn't happen in EQ2 literally at all (never saw it happen even a single time in a decade of playing, that entire argument falls completely flat.

Sure, players in WoW may have had a group leader say "Your DPS is shit, I'm booting you and replacing you with someone else". I don't doubt that happens often in that game. However, what I am saying is that if you leave the combat tracker in place, and remove that group leaders ability to easily replace that player, that group leader would make a different decision because replacing the underperforming player is not an option.

It's the same in your L2 example - the issue was the group making tools, not the objective data about players. Sure, the data may inform the decision, but the group making tool is what makes the negative interaction a potential outcome of that decision.

This is why I am against the family summons - this is the mechanic that will allow players to be replaced mid content - and that does not matter at all on if a combat tracker exists or not.

If you wanna draw a parallel between smth that I do and the tool that I use to do it, windows is not the best way to do it, cause I can't create my own OS while I can track my dmg if I want to. The better parallel would be a calculator and counting in your head or on paper. And I always try to count in my head first, and only if I completely fail to do so would I go to use a calc.

So, obviously you are fine with using third party programs - and more importantly Intrepid is fine with you using third party programs.

Next question - have you ever looked up a piece of information on a game you are playing? Perhaps a map some other player has made, information on mob drops, read forum posts to learn things others have found out - anything at all along those lines?

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

Since it doesn't happen in EQ2 literally at all (never saw it happen even a single time in a decade of playing, that entire argument falls completely flat.

Then I guess we'll just have to wait and see what Intrepid decides to go for and if they do indeed allow trackers, we'll see if it does indeed avoid WoW's issues. I definitely hope it does in that case. I won't be using them, but if Intrepid allows them, I ain't gonna yell at people to "get off my fucking lawn".

Noaani wrote: »

This is why I am against the family summons - this is the mechanic that will allow players to be replaced mid content - and that does not matter at all on if a combat tracker exists or not.

Yeah, that's definitely one of the more questionable design choices right now. Will definitely have to test the hell out of it and all of its consequences in the alpha/betas.

Noaani wrote: »

So, obviously you are fine with using third party programs - and more importantly Intrepid is fine with you using third party programs.

Next question - have you ever looked up a piece of information on a game you are playing? Perhaps a map some other player has made, information on mob drops, read forum posts to learn things others have found out - anything at all along those lines?

Same as with a calculator. It'll be the last thing I do, after having done everything in my own power to achieve the goal that I set for myself. And even when I do come to that point, I'd first just ask people, then look at forum-like platforms, then YT videos and only then, if all the previous sources fail - some info site/app.

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Since it doesn't happen in EQ2 literally at all (never saw it happen even a single time in a decade of playing, that entire argument falls completely flat.

Then I guess we'll just have to wait and see what Intrepid decides to go for and if they do indeed allow trackers, we'll see if it does indeed avoid WoW's issues. I definitely hope it does in that case. I won't be using them, but if Intrepid allows them, I ain't gonna yell at people to "get off my fucking lawn".

Noaani wrote: »

This is why I am against the family summons - this is the mechanic that will allow players to be replaced mid content - and that does not matter at all on if a combat tracker exists or not.

Yeah, that's definitely one of the more questionable design choices right now. Will definitely have to test the hell out of it and all of its consequences in the alpha/betas.

If Intrepid leave the family summons in place but not tracker, there will still be people that are booted from groups mid content to be easily replaced.

The limitations to the family summons will see it happen less often than WoW, but that is 100% due to those limitations - and nothing more.

Same as with a calculator. It'll be the last thing I do, after having done everything in my own power to achieve the goal that I set for myself. And even when I do come to that point, I'd first just ask people, then look at forum-like platforms, then YT videos and only then, if all the previous sources fail - some info site/app.

So, YouTube and forums are all access via a browser, I assume you use a third party browser rather than a first or second party (made by Intrepid or you, respectively).

As such, you aren't even against using third party programs to gain an in game advantage, as you readily admit to doing it yourself (even if I do find it odd that you consider forums and YouTube to be a lesser version of this for some reason).

So, if you are using third party programs to gain an in game advantage, I simply have to assume you are fine with others doing the same, even if they opt to do it in slightly different ways than you.

From my own perspective, I have literally never once needed to go to YouTube, forums or other websites to gain any information on a games combat system. Not even once. This is because I stick to the first part - finding it out on my own, with the use of a combat tracker.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

So, if you are using third party programs to gain an in game advantage, I simply have to assume you are fine with others doing the same, even if they opt to do it in slightly different ways than you.

As I said, if Intrepid allows them, I won't care for them but I won't be telling people to never use them. My first post here still wouldn't change "fuck dps meters". That will be my opinion even if Intrepid has them in the game.

Noaani wrote: »

From my own perspective, I have literally never once needed to go to YouTube, forums or other websites to gain any information on a games combat system. Not even once. This is because I stick to the first part - finding it out on my own, with the use of a combat tracker.

Neither have I. Usually I was one of the main sources that people in the game came to if they wanted to know smth. And I could only be that source because I've played each class, in each setup, on top of talking with other players about their experiences. And I didn't use any software to do that (outside of the game obviously, cause I feel like you'd try to get a "gotcha" in there if I didn't specify).

Our views on this topic are the same, except I'm the dude who tries to do get the info manually through way more tests and tries, while you just use a tracker.

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

Our views on this topic are the same, except I'm the dude who tries to do get the info manually through way more tests and tries, while you just use a tracker.

Again, I don't think you understand trackers.

If you are doing tests and such, and I am "just using a tracker", that would imply that I am not doing tests.

If I am using a tracker and not doing tests, the tracker isn't able to give me any data. All a tracker can do is give me data on the tests I do.

The difference is, I get more accurate results, and I get them faster.

Since I then have objective data as opposed to opinion (which is what you have without data), I am then able to compare that objective data to data others have, and use that to find bugs in the game (I have found many, including rounding errors that would literally be impossible to find manually - I needed 10k data samples and even then wasn't 100% sure), or to help others find what it is they are doing wrong.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

The difference is, I get more accurate results, and I get them faster.

Since I then have objective data as opposed to opinion (which is what you have without data), I am then able to compare that objective data to data others have, and use that to find bugs in the game (I have found many, including rounding errors that would literally be impossible to find manually - I needed 10k data samples and even then wasn't 100% sure), or to help others find what it is they are doing wrong.

Which is why I said that I need to do more tests, because my calculations would have to be done by myself, would take longer and might have mistakes in them so I'd have to recheck them again and again.

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

The difference is, I get more accurate results, and I get them faster.

Since I then have objective data as opposed to opinion (which is what you have without data), I am then able to compare that objective data to data others have, and use that to find bugs in the game (I have found many, including rounding errors that would literally be impossible to find manually - I needed 10k data samples and even then wasn't 100% sure), or to help others find what it is they are doing wrong.

Which is why I said that I need to do more tests, because my calculations would have to be done by myself, would take longer and might have mistakes in them so I'd have to recheck them again and again.

Yeah, and I don't.

That's my point.

Why would you complain about something ("fuck DPS meters") when that thing literally exists primarily to perform a job you are doing, only faster and more accurately?

It would take you years to get the same level of results that I can get in an afternoon, which means over any given span of time I am able to go in to FAR more depth than you are able to.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

Why would you complain about something ("fuck DPS meters") when that thing literally exists primarily to perform a job you are doing, only faster and more accurately?

Because I've never needed them before and then when I heard about them, all I heard was bad stuff.

If, by any chance, I come to a point where I will require them, I'll think about reconsidering my views on them, but before that I'll keep saying "fuck them".

Noaani wrote: »

It would take you years to get the same level of results that I can get in an afternoon, which means over any given span of time I am able to go in to FAR more depth than you are able to.

And I'm fine with that, because I'd know that I achieved, whatever stage of progress I achieved, completely with my own resources/power.

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Why would you complain about something ("fuck DPS meters") when that thing literally exists primarily to perform a job you are doing, only faster and more accurately?

Because I've never needed them before and then when I heard about them, all I heard was bad stuff.

It doesn't matter what you are talking about, there are always going to be groups that only have bad things to say about a thing.

I honestly took you for the kind of person that would form your own opinion on things. I mean, if you just find out about this thing that everyone uses, and all you hear are bad things, I assumed you would be the kind of person to look further in to them to see why they were made, and why so many people use them.

I'm curious, are the people you heard these negative things from people you had played MMO's with in the past?

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

I'm curious, are the people you heard these negative things from people you had played MMO's with in the past?

It was more of an osmosis of information from all kinds of sources and personal conclusions made based on the things I've heard. My own experience is that of not requiring them at all to enjoy an mmo. Now obviously my preferred mmo didn't even need them in the first place, so I'm obviously biased when it comes to the topic.

I've discussed this topic with people that I've played other games with (mainly one wow guy) and I saw 0 huge enough benefits for me to consider it a necessity. Then I've heard a ton of feedback from FF14 people and while I know that a lot of top lvl players use different kinds of trackers, my main argument against that was the info about ff14 devs only releasing raids that they themselves can clear. And I'm assuming they do that w/o trackers, considering their views on addons overall.

WoW and FF14 are touted as the biggest and best representatives of top lvl pve (I didn't have any EQers in any of the sources of info I had so sorry about that), so I trusted the opinions of people that played those games and then based my own opinion on that.

Obviously, my bias has probably clouded my judgement by quite a lot, but as I've said, I'm ready to rethink my current opinion once I hit a progress wall that will just say "you either use a dps tracker or you're not going forward". But until then, I'll keep my belief that dps trackers are not an absolute requirement.

ashesplayer123

I think it would be the best if raid leaders had access to everyone else's performance, they can then consult with either the person directly, or talk to an officer who can advise how to do a better job at the class (if this is even needed, there are many relaxed guilds where people don't want to deal with this sort of stuff at all). I think it's completely unnecessary for everyone to see what dmg do other people do, let it be decided and handled by the guild's leader(s)

Non-leaders could see their own performance numbers, this would be useful to actually have some sort data to see if my performance improves by changing a talent/spell/item, etc. but I think they shouldn't see other people's performance.

I am a competitive person, so I like to keep track of my own performance, and tuning my build accordingly. Knowing myself I'd probably even reach out to my officer/leader to ask if my performance is okay, should/could I improve somewhere, but many people are not like this, and they would just get dragged into drama and stress.

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

Then I've heard a ton of feedback from FF14 people and while I know that a lot of top lvl players use different kinds of trackers, my main argument against that was the info about ff14 devs only releasing raids that they themselves can clear. And I'm assuming they do that w/o trackers, considering their views on addons overall.

In regards to FFXIV, the game has large groups, not raids. They just call them raids. In top of that, they are easy in comparison to other games.

I've only recently started looking in to FFXIV, but I have done it in the same way I gained information about L2 - long discussions with people I know, trust and understand. From what I can see, FFXIV has "raid" content that would be considered mid tier at best in either WoW or EQ/EQ2.

This may be due to their testing system, but that is just an indictment on that testing system more than anything - as top end players of an MMO will always be better at playing that MMO than the developers.

The other thing to keep in mind, there is literally only one type of player that has a bad time in relation to combat trackers - players that refuse to listen to objective data and use that to improve.

People may have differing reasons for arriving at this state, but this state is a requirement for having a bad time with combat trackers.

Aerlana

devs in FFXIV may use tracker or not, they don't need it for a simple reason :
They already have the datas, because they designed the class, the cycle, and the amount of DPS needed to kill the boss, or the adds.
Also i think they use tracker with more information that we have to see more things because they don't just have to see if the fight is doable or not, but also how to do slight change if needed or welcomed...

And another point : devs in FFXIV not all time do the fights, but all part of the fights...
The difference ? a ultimate is around 15 minute, with many different part with various strategy. The players will have to do the 15 minutes fight to win, but devs did test 5x3 minutes. So they get an easier version.
And this is not stupid, they don't need to test the whole fight, it wouldn't change anything, they need to be sure each part is doable, and need short timed test to see problems, adjust it, test again, and iterate until they are happy with it.

combat tracker allows the players (who didnt design classes and fight) to find the efficient way with reading some data without losing time to take all data, and write it..
But the result are exactly, precisely the same (if we consider either combat tracker is not bugged and don't show inaccurate data, and the players don't do mistake himself) ... Anything bad coming from tracker can come from yourself doing the same thing manually...
And people don't even need combat tracker to say "stfu noob, votekick lmao L2P".

The tracker just says "you did this damages" and allow you to see what each skill did, missrate, crit rate, etc etc.
The "bad" comes when it is for the whole party, but the "elite" with only disdain for the "bad" are not so often supported... I saw various LFR in wow, where there was some attempt to votekick low DPS while there was no problem currently... people massively said "no" and if the guy did spam the vote too much, or began to speak a lot "he is bad have to kick him" he was the kicked. Also, the tracker was not a so good friend for them, because it showed well they were far from perfect, top DPS maybe (most of time, only 2nd or 3rd out of 17 DPS...) but it was at cost of just ... doing the fight, the cc, interrupt etc... :')
On "young" raid, when there are already 5 or 6 wipe (while LFR is really baby difficulty) yes "bad" begin to get kicked, but DPS is not the only thing watched... counter of death for example... or some information like "cc breaker" that can explain why we have hard time.

And most of time... be it on wow or FFXIV, the "parser = bad" are people that don't want to be judged at all...
A big topic to have a ingame parser for FFXIV showed it well, most "no" were people that considered that they didnt have to be judge, that we were a whole community and had to help each other... So they went in "kill party" or even "farm party" but were a deadweight... and didnt even need parser to know they were a deadweight most of time... on medium difficulty content, with only 8man party, it is easy, without tool, to already have a good idea of who is underperforming... even more true in FFXIV due to how the fight and classes are designed .

Dygz

Don't need a combat tracker to determine who is "dead weight".
True.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

Don't need a combat tracker to determine who is "dead weight".
True.

This is such a toxic way of thinking that I just cant even.

You don't use a tracker in a group looking for dead weight, you use a tracker (everyone should use a tracker) in order to improve them self and those around them as much as possible.

That is how you use a tracker - to help each other.

Perhaps people with your mindset simply shouldn't be allowed them - but they also shouldn't prevent the rest of us from having them.

Deliasz

I read few things:

1. This is no longer a game where you enjoy mindset - just play. It's a highly sophisticated excel spreadsheet. Efficiency over anything.
2. Dps meter or tracker will kill lower skilled(new to genre, gaming, social experience) players from parties. How those people can evolve in game?
3. Killing a social aspect of learning the game - sending people to watch videos, read forums and use dikc meters
4. Why you treat this game like other games you played before? Do you want the end game or level cap in a month time? Need to support it with all the numbers.
5. There is nothing wrong in failing. Not knowing, we can learn and adapt.

Also, Noaani.
Unless you copy paste devs speaking up for combat meters, please don't use it to support your claim.

Also, I will give you 100 hammers for 100 people. We all will get different result from it. Still almost the same experience. Experience matters.

Noaani

Deliasz wrote: »

I read few things:

1. This is no longer a game where you enjoy mindset - just play. It's a highly sophisticated excel spreadsheet. Efficiency over anything.
2. Dps meter or tracker will kill lower skilled(new to genre, gaming, social experience) players from parties. How those people can evolve in game?
3. Killing a social aspect of learning the game - sending people to watch videos, read forums and use dikc meters
4. Why you treat this game like other games you played before? Do you want the end game or level cap in a month time? Need to support it with all the numbers.
5. There is nothing wrong in failing. Not knowing, we can learn and adapt.

Also, Noaani.
Unless you copy paste devs speaking up for combat meters, please don't use it to support your claim.

Also, I will give you 100 hammers for 100 people. We all will get different result from it. Still almost the same experience. Experience matters.

Right, so, a few things.

Point #1- what are you even talking about? This is no longer a game where you enjoy mindset... what?

Point #2 - No, it won't. Some people will not want to group with new players, but those players wouldn't want to group with new players regardless of combat trackers. Some people are happy to help new players, and those people will be happy to help regardless of combat trackers.

This is literally a baseless claim that makes literally no sense.

Point #3 - Again, no idea what you are talking about here. Combat trackers are a fantastic tool for helping others learn the game.

Point #4 - Combat trackers will not reduce the time it takes to level up. Why would you even suggest this?

Point #5 - Indeed there isn't. And having a combat tracker won't stop you from failing. All it will do is help you do a better job of learning from it.

Point #6 (that you didn't number) - Can't paste discussions that didn't take place via text. However, the comment I made a little earlier about Margret can absolutely be found if you go looking for it. I'm not going to go looking for it for you though, because I am not your assistant.

Point #7 (still not numbered) - Indeed you will get different results from it. However, if the intent is to hammer a nail in to a piece of wood, all 100 of those people will do a better job than the person that tries to use the palm of their hand. Combat trackers do not prevent people from having different experiences - shit games that don't allow for deviation do that.

NishUK

wow this thread is heated....

I don't play "raid" games, due to generally an overcomplex nature + a sickly drive for perfection via strict movement protocols and absolute mastery of rotations. In my view, it's already complex enough in the fact it's a multiplayer team game...

But what I've gathered is the determing factor to what makes you a great player in games like Wow/14/EQ is how well you can do a raid as it most likely contains the only conclusive avenues of ultimate reward and merit, that is the competition or you could say "PvP element".
If a game is competitive and it exists on PC, there's no getting around a huge demographic of people wanting to employ some if not all forms of tools to ease their progression/mastery/reward.

With that said, In the pursuit of a more welcoming and varied competitive world IE a needed and player driven economy and strategy with OW involving many player factors, I geniunely believe a hard focus on complex raiding is huge mistake UNLESS there are other avenues of being a great and respected player without it.

Making PvE+Event elements so challenging and difficult, requiring a passion of precise knowledge of your character's GCD's, damage totals and the raid/event knowledge itself, greatly benefitted with the help of an add on, lowers end game accessibility tremendously and that is bad!
Similar to the fighting game genre of which it's taken steps to improve if you look into Street Fighter 6 and Tekken's director talks.
Raiding games are enough of a game on their own, it does warrant a different genre for them honestly, a "PvE focused MOBA" in a sense, I really don't see how this benefits a player engagement genre that an mmorpg can be when in raid focused mmo's the skill factor is AWAY from player engagement and almost completely focusing the performance of one's self.

From my experience with mmo gaming, there isn't harsh enough complaints towards PvE and event AI/behaviour to warrant enough a high focus on it, as it would come with the price of lowering player engagement, accessibilty and ultimately comfort to how expansive and involving an open world game can be.

In regards to add ons, they are always required and unvoidable in a PC game, so it just requires devoloper focus on making the game feel great for everyone or its intended audience without alienating players or catering only to the top 10-5%.

Noaani

NishUK wrote: »

wow this thread is heated....

I don't play "raid" games, due to generally an overcomplex nature + a sickly drive for perfection via strict movement protocols and absolute mastery of rotations. In my view, it's already complex enough in the fact it's a multiplayer team game...

But what I've gathered is the determing factor to what makes you a great player in games like Wow/14/EQ is how well you can do a raid as it most likely contains the only conclusive avenues of ultimate reward and merit, that is the competition or you could say "PvP element".
If a game is competitive and it exists on PC, there's no getting around a huge demographic of people wanting to employ some if not all forms of tools to ease their progression/mastery/reward.

With that said, In the pursuit of a more welcoming and varied competitive world IE a needed and player driven economy and strategy with OW involving many player factors, I geniunely believe a hard focus on complex raiding is huge mistake UNLESS there are other avenues of being a great and respected player without it.

So far I 100% agree.

Ashes needs to have more than just raiding as a means to be a respected player. Fortunately, it also has PvP - a player can be both well respected and feared if they are adept enough with this. To this day, I can name PvP players from Archeage that I respected. Conveniently, the game also gives top PvP players the ability to be mayor of military nodes.

That brings us on to node leadership. Since scientific nodes are led by a democratic vote, a player can earn a great deal of respect via doing a good job of running a node.

Then you have castles - I doubt anyone in the game would not respect (at least on some level) the leader of a guild that has control of a castle.

Or there are religions - players will actually be able to be the head of their religion in Ashes - no doubt taking a great amount of work. Social organizations are the same.

Then the game also has economic prowess (also resulting in node mayoralty), naval prowess, and potentially creating a crafting empire.

Basically, this game has more avenues for a player to excel and make a real name for them self than any other game I can think of.

As such, even if we both agree with your last sentence above, we should then both agree that the game should have that complicated top end raiding.

Making PvE+Event elements so challenging and difficult, requiring a passion of precise knowledge of your character's GCD's, damage totals and the raid/event knowledge itself, greatly benefitted with the help of an add on, lowers end game accessibility tremendously and that is bad!
Similar to the fighting game genre of which it's taken steps to improve if you look into Street Fighter 6 and Tekken's director talks.
Raiding games are enough of a game on their own, it does warrant a different genre for them honestly, a "PvE focused MOBA" in a sense, I really don't see how this benefits a player engagement genre that an mmorpg can be when in raid focused mmo's the skill factor is AWAY from player engagement and almost completely focusing the performance of one's self.

From my experience with mmo gaming, there isn't harsh enough complaints towards PvE and event AI/behaviour to warrant enough a high focus on it, as it would come with the price of lowering player engagement, accessibilty and ultimately comfort to how expansive and involving an open world game can be.

In regards to add ons, they are always required and unvoidable in a PC game, so it just requires devoloper focus on making the game feel great for everyone or its intended audience without alienating players or catering only to the top 10-5%.

As to this, the first thing I am going to address is the use of the term "add-on". While this may seem like a technicality here, it is not. An add-on is something that runs with the game - it is essentially a modification to the game itself.

No one is asking for that.

Combat trackers are their own application, not add-ons.

Next, I fail to see how anything discussed would lower player engagement, accessibility or comfort. I also don't see combat trackers as being for the 5 - 10% (I would wager that 50% or more of all players in EQ2 ran a combat tracker at least some of the time).

I really don't see how this benefits a player engagement genre that an mmorpg can be when in raid focused mmo's the skill factor is AWAY from player engagement and almost completely focusing the performance of one's self.

I want to now just focus on this.

First of all, are you saying that you believe skill factor and player performance are not related? I am actually not sure.

What I *think* you are saying here is that it would lower player engagement if players were looking at some readout of their performance rather than focusing on the game itself.

If this is the case, all I can say is that players that do this are using their combat tracker wrong.

NishUK

Noaani wrote: »

As such, even if we both agree with your last sentence above, we should then both agree that the game should have that complicated top end raiding.

Well...taking into account the rest of what you said, for sure, I'd love for an MMO to be that deep, I'm all about focusing on 1 game

It's an incredibly huge undertaking and my utlimate vision of a raid will probably not co-incide with yours (PvX, not instanced), of which I'll, brief as I can say is:

2 huge parties/raids entering inside of a "Crystal Maze" of sorts labyrinth/dungeon, where puzzles and challenges can always lead to different courses, including, on chance battling the opposing group/raid in raw PvP that includes location and PvE "twists" that challenges and utilizes a broad spectrum of player skill/mind and class abilities. All this leading to getting "1st dibs" or exclusive rights to the end boss of which after the ordeal of getting there I would not overload with expert level mechanics and understanding.

Noaani wrote: »

As to this, the first thing I am going to address is the use of the term "add-on". While this may seem like a technicality here, it is not. An add-on is something that runs with the game - it is essentially a modification to the game itself.

No one is asking for that.

Combat trackers are their own application, not add-ons.

Next, I fail to see how anything discussed would lower player engagement, accessibility or comfort. I also don't see combat trackers as being for the 5 - 10% (I would wager that 50% or more of all players in EQ2 ran a combat tracker at least some of the time).

Well I'll just say for starters, as a non "excellent PvE" enthuiast, if I can't get everything I want from expert PvE players, IE "trade me that dungeon cosmetic, price?" then I will sure want an add on that will warn me to jump, duck, "hide behind the rock, ultimate attack!" because I cannot be arsed with it.

A combat tracker can help but in my eyes, leads to a focus on being an expert at damage delivery and quickness which is certainly not my vision of ultimate PvE gameplay as I also value defense strongly, regardless of it having an automatic presence (but an afterthought) in HP total, stats, "forced movement" and usually an absolutely laughable reliance on healing support.

Noaani wrote: »

First of all, are you saying that you believe skill factor and player performance are not related? I am actually not sure.

What I *think* you are saying here is that it would lower player engagement if players were looking at some readout of their performance rather than focusing on the game itself.

If this is the case, all I can say is that players that do this are using their combat tracker wrong.

Well, I'm practically saying the hard focus on making PvE a very challenging and precise measure has its price when comfortably working with players and will always suffer limitations when we could instead focus on PvX elements as player characters are a forever changing "AI".
There is ofc a skill factor and mastery but a player will ultimately reach the peak, only for them to probably scream at the devs for another challenge or a harder difficulty (that doesn't just involve a stat increase) which takes development time I'd much rather be spent on other things that involve more players and opposing players interactions that are infinitevely interesting.

I've said all I've wanted to say on this really, I'll just end with:
If you REALLY needed to win at a challenging dungeon/raid and you had a group of your friends and they were compotent and you know their history but 'Faker' is avaliable to take (the gaming genius who's a massive fan and expert at this game) you would take Faker. Even if you speak a totally different language and have slightly different protocols at maximising this challenging raids timing, he would still be your number 1 guy and factor in everything, he knows that it's necessary to keep everyone alive and his skill exhausts the potential of PvE behaviour.
Faker would have limited potential in a team setting having to factor in PvP involvement as he would have to communicate as death and mistakes are much more likely to occur.

Basically, PvX is the way forward and the potential of the raid genre has already been reached, focused and getting love (14, wow) but more importantly, raid focus mmo's are all about your focus to play the game correctly or even perfectly, creating a "toxic" barrier for entry ("L2P!", "dead weight!", "I'd rather take Faker!"). Ofc it still happens when PvP is involved but the human mind is never perfect, prone to mistakes and keeps on being interesting and beating people in a more direct manner is always a more fulfilling reward.

So I'll make it clear, focusing on the extremes of PvE challenge is a mistake for an OW and massive multiplayer game that should incorperate a wide range of players and talents and promoting the use of a tracker promotes a parameter of dev limitations that you'll ultimately never be happy with "I found this challenging but I felt they could do better with x, etc" but player focus and engagement never disappoints

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