Noaani wrote: » NishUK wrote: » Can people stop pretending that an mmorpg is a difficult genre WITHOUT PvP/Human Competition, it's disgusting. Just because you have never played a game with good enough content to prove this statement blatantly false, doesn't mean the rest of us have not. Case in point, in early EQ2, the games website used to list the mobs with the most player kills, along with how many kills they had. There were some individual mobs in the game that were getting hundreds of thousands of kills a week. It took all players in Archeage several months to reach what one mob in EQ2 got in a week. Good PvP is great. However, it isn't a even shit stain on good PvE. Good PvE takes more time, more dedication, more focus, more knowledge, more adaptation, and more resilience than PvP ever could. You just don't know this, because you are too scared of it - you know you'll fail.
NishUK wrote: » Can people stop pretending that an mmorpg is a difficult genre WITHOUT PvP/Human Competition, it's disgusting.
VmanGman wrote: » Deliasz wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » One big concern I have for AoC is that gear will end up providing too much power. AoC is already a game that will greatly reward those who play a lot which is why I believe that it is imperative for gear to only account for at most 20-30% of a character's power. People will enjoy grinding out their gear even if each piece gives small increments of power increase. These small increments of power increase will allow the bulk of the population to not feel like they are so out geared that they cannot even come close to competing. This is very important because when those casual players will die over and over to a hardcore player that severely outgears them without any chance of fighting back, they will be very likely to just quit. Hardcore players will have other advantages (gold, skill, etc.) anyway because they play a lot more and there is no reason to further widen the gap between casual and hardcore players. Please understand that I am not against rewarding those who invest more time into the game. I am just suggesting that their reward should not create such a great disparity between them and casual players. I truly believe that this can greatly help the health of the game and its population. I'm super casual and I think your cry to the gods is broken and insulting to common sense. You just want to be protected from people who can afford more time to play this game. Just play the game (when released) and find your own happy spot. I want to be the same hardcore Joe but I don't want to put an effort. Good Luck with that Mons wrote: » You can't expect to get the same reward or power for putting in a fraction of the effort or time It might benefit you or people who play less by reducing the power level disparity, but it diminishes the rewards given to people who play the game more, making their time and effort that they invested less rewarding. Playing the game more and putting in more effort or time into getting better gear SHOULD make you more powerful than someone who doesn't, otherwise what is the point of gear in the first place? Yes, it shouldn't be TOO much of a difference, but it shouldn't be made redundant. It should be noticeable, it should be rewarding, and it should absolutely make people who put in that time and effort feel rewarded not like they got some gimmick of a new item or power increase. A good middle ground is best @Mons @Deliasz I never said that I want casuals to be on equal footing with hardcore players. Please read the post before you comment. I just said that hardcore players shouldn't be able to automatically win against a casual player by stat checking them. Hardcore players will already most likely have the advantage of being better at the game. They don't need to also stat check the opponent into a defeat. In a game like AoC where everything can be contested through PvP it is very important to not make casuals feel like they have no chance simply because the other guy has bigger numbers.
Deliasz wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » One big concern I have for AoC is that gear will end up providing too much power. AoC is already a game that will greatly reward those who play a lot which is why I believe that it is imperative for gear to only account for at most 20-30% of a character's power. People will enjoy grinding out their gear even if each piece gives small increments of power increase. These small increments of power increase will allow the bulk of the population to not feel like they are so out geared that they cannot even come close to competing. This is very important because when those casual players will die over and over to a hardcore player that severely outgears them without any chance of fighting back, they will be very likely to just quit. Hardcore players will have other advantages (gold, skill, etc.) anyway because they play a lot more and there is no reason to further widen the gap between casual and hardcore players. Please understand that I am not against rewarding those who invest more time into the game. I am just suggesting that their reward should not create such a great disparity between them and casual players. I truly believe that this can greatly help the health of the game and its population. I'm super casual and I think your cry to the gods is broken and insulting to common sense. You just want to be protected from people who can afford more time to play this game. Just play the game (when released) and find your own happy spot. I want to be the same hardcore Joe but I don't want to put an effort. Good Luck with that
VmanGman wrote: » One big concern I have for AoC is that gear will end up providing too much power. AoC is already a game that will greatly reward those who play a lot which is why I believe that it is imperative for gear to only account for at most 20-30% of a character's power. People will enjoy grinding out their gear even if each piece gives small increments of power increase. These small increments of power increase will allow the bulk of the population to not feel like they are so out geared that they cannot even come close to competing. This is very important because when those casual players will die over and over to a hardcore player that severely outgears them without any chance of fighting back, they will be very likely to just quit. Hardcore players will have other advantages (gold, skill, etc.) anyway because they play a lot more and there is no reason to further widen the gap between casual and hardcore players. Please understand that I am not against rewarding those who invest more time into the game. I am just suggesting that their reward should not create such a great disparity between them and casual players. I truly believe that this can greatly help the health of the game and its population.
Mons wrote: » You can't expect to get the same reward or power for putting in a fraction of the effort or time It might benefit you or people who play less by reducing the power level disparity, but it diminishes the rewards given to people who play the game more, making their time and effort that they invested less rewarding. Playing the game more and putting in more effort or time into getting better gear SHOULD make you more powerful than someone who doesn't, otherwise what is the point of gear in the first place? Yes, it shouldn't be TOO much of a difference, but it shouldn't be made redundant. It should be noticeable, it should be rewarding, and it should absolutely make people who put in that time and effort feel rewarded not like they got some gimmick of a new item or power increase. A good middle ground is best
Mag7spy wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » Deliasz wrote: » VmanGman wrote: » One big concern I have for AoC is that gear will end up providing too much power. AoC is already a game that will greatly reward those who play a lot which is why I believe that it is imperative for gear to only account for at most 20-30% of a character's power. People will enjoy grinding out their gear even if each piece gives small increments of power increase. These small increments of power increase will allow the bulk of the population to not feel like they are so out geared that they cannot even come close to competing. This is very important because when those casual players will die over and over to a hardcore player that severely outgears them without any chance of fighting back, they will be very likely to just quit. Hardcore players will have other advantages (gold, skill, etc.) anyway because they play a lot more and there is no reason to further widen the gap between casual and hardcore players. Please understand that I am not against rewarding those who invest more time into the game. I am just suggesting that their reward should not create such a great disparity between them and casual players. I truly believe that this can greatly help the health of the game and its population. I'm super casual and I think your cry to the gods is broken and insulting to common sense. You just want to be protected from people who can afford more time to play this game. Just play the game (when released) and find your own happy spot. I want to be the same hardcore Joe but I don't want to put an effort. Good Luck with that Mons wrote: » You can't expect to get the same reward or power for putting in a fraction of the effort or time It might benefit you or people who play less by reducing the power level disparity, but it diminishes the rewards given to people who play the game more, making their time and effort that they invested less rewarding. Playing the game more and putting in more effort or time into getting better gear SHOULD make you more powerful than someone who doesn't, otherwise what is the point of gear in the first place? Yes, it shouldn't be TOO much of a difference, but it shouldn't be made redundant. It should be noticeable, it should be rewarding, and it should absolutely make people who put in that time and effort feel rewarded not like they got some gimmick of a new item or power increase. A good middle ground is best @Mons @Deliasz I never said that I want casuals to be on equal footing with hardcore players. Please read the post before you comment. I just said that hardcore players shouldn't be able to automatically win against a casual player by stat checking them. Hardcore players will already most likely have the advantage of being better at the game. They don't need to also stat check the opponent into a defeat. In a game like AoC where everything can be contested through PvP it is very important to not make casuals feel like they have no chance simply because the other guy has bigger numbers. Max lvl to Max lvl and best gear in game id expect a 50% increase in stats. Meaning a very easy win. I think you have a issue in thinking a casual player needs to complete with a hardcore player when that will be they 5%. Level matters and if you are playing casually and a lower level you will 100% lose against a higher level player. Just play at your level and make friends and you will be fine.
Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » NishUK wrote: » Can people stop pretending that an mmorpg is a difficult genre WITHOUT PvP/Human Competition, it's disgusting. Just because you have never played a game with good enough content to prove this statement blatantly false, doesn't mean the rest of us have not. Case in point, in early EQ2, the games website used to list the mobs with the most player kills, along with how many kills they had. There were some individual mobs in the game that were getting hundreds of thousands of kills a week. It took all players in Archeage several months to reach what one mob in EQ2 got in a week. Good PvP is great. However, it isn't a even shit stain on good PvE. Good PvE takes more time, more dedication, more focus, more knowledge, more adaptation, and more resilience than PvP ever could. You just don't know this, because you are too scared of it - you know you'll fail. I can tell you haven't done high end pvp with this post. Pvp will always be more challenging then any kind of mob in the game because at the end of the day (unless they go heavy action based) mobs are just puzzles. Once the puzzle is solved you follow the formula and builds and easy.
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » NishUK wrote: » Can people stop pretending that an mmorpg is a difficult genre WITHOUT PvP/Human Competition, it's disgusting. Just because you have never played a game with good enough content to prove this statement blatantly false, doesn't mean the rest of us have not. Case in point, in early EQ2, the games website used to list the mobs with the most player kills, along with how many kills they had. There were some individual mobs in the game that were getting hundreds of thousands of kills a week. It took all players in Archeage several months to reach what one mob in EQ2 got in a week. Good PvP is great. However, it isn't a even shit stain on good PvE. Good PvE takes more time, more dedication, more focus, more knowledge, more adaptation, and more resilience than PvP ever could. You just don't know this, because you are too scared of it - you know you'll fail. I can tell you haven't done high end pvp with this post. Pvp will always be more challenging then any kind of mob in the game because at the end of the day (unless they go heavy action based) mobs are just puzzles. Once the puzzle is solved you follow the formula and builds and easy. I can tell you haven't played top end PvP in a server segregated, persistent world MMO game with this post. Sure, a single boss is a puzzle, and generally speaking, once you solve it, it becomes easier. The thing is, the developers add new mobs, with new puzzles, and if they are doing their job well, you never run out of new puzzles to solve. With players in PvP though, it's exactly the same. Once you figure out a players strengths or weaknesses, they virtually never change. Players dont just suddenly gain faster reaction skill, as an example. So, eventually the same thing happens, you figure out a player, and they become much easier after that. Since Ashes will see players bound to their server, there will be a very limited pool of top end PvP players. In Archeage when I played it, there were about 20 people on my server (the highest population at launch) that were actually good at PvP. The thing is, since players are server bound, this pool of top end PvP players gets just as stale as doing the same PvE content can. The thing there is, developers can (and should) add more PvE content. If you feel a desire to kill a PvE encounter more than 12 times, the developers screwed up. Developers cant just add new top end PvP players, and so when fighting the same handful of people gets stale, it will stay stale. Even if the developers alter classes and such, you still have the same players with the same sets of inherent strengths and weaknesses. An alteration to a class still isnt going to increase the reflexes of a player. Anyone that things PvE gets stale but PvP doesnt has clearly never actually played PvE. The only way you can think this is if you totally ignore the 30 to 50 new encounters a competent developer adds each year, while PvP players are stuck with the handful of opponents.
Mag7spy wrote: » Honestly you do not understand pvp, you are trying to boil my post down to 1v1 when i was never talking about 1v1 lmao. That right there shows you don't understand the work and challenges of high end pvp that will always be more difficult then PVE encounters in a game.
You are literately talking out of your ass with 30-50 pve encounter literarily just stop lying. No game has 30-50 pve encounters that are all equally challenges and take ages to complete you only get a handful. And again once the puzzle is solved you look at a guide online follow it and have it much easier. No need to think you just follow the video.
There is no video to follow for what ashes if doing in pvp on this kind of scale with this many player period. There is no guide that will tell you how to react to everything players do and how things change in real time. Pvp isn't just limited to the giant battles, but again i need to repeat myself but making the guild, dealing with the drama, retaining your territory and players, etc.
Mag7spy wrote: » And again once the puzzle is solved you look at a guide online follow it and have it much easier. No need to think you just follow the video.
SongRune wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » And again once the puzzle is solved you look at a guide online follow it and have it much easier. No need to think you just follow the video. I find that this attitude is quite unfortunate, and yet common in certain ways. "I have chosen to skip the entire discovery phase of this content. Why is it so boring?" I'm not saying guides are wrong or bad. Only that... if you want to enjoy the puzzle, you can simply choose to not work against your own enjoyment by looking up the solution in advance. The existence of guides isn't an excuse for not enjoying PvE encounters.
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Honestly you do not understand pvp, you are trying to boil my post down to 1v1 when i was never talking about 1v1 lmao. That right there shows you don't understand the work and challenges of high end pvp that will always be more difficult then PVE encounters in a game. Ok, so, what exactly is it you consider top end PvP? You can't be talking about guild based organized PvP here, surely. If you were, you would know that guild based PvP is almost exclusively about the few people on each side that are running things going against each other, and everyone else is just a peon that is there to do what they are told (essentially). Those at the top absolutely do fit in with what I was talking about above where PvP is the same few people taking on the same few people over and over again, with little to nothing at all really changing. While I was playing Archeage, the guild I was running was facing off against the same three guilds for a year and a half. It didn't matter if it was open PvP over a mob, naval PvP for trade packs or a fishing spot, an in game event, a guild war, or a castle siege - it was always the same three other guilds - because there were only four top end guilds on the server and no one else had the balls to really attack us (that is how you know you are top end in regards to PvP - you get very little PvP). When ever we were in a situation where we were up against one of those three guilds, we always knew about what to expect, because they always had the same people leading them. That persons brain isn't going to change, and so once you understand how that brain works, you have effectively solved the PvP version of solving a PvE puzzle. The problem is, the developers aren't going to replace that brain like they do with PvE encounters. Now, I have to also assume you aren't talking about arena PvP as being top end. If you are, all you will get back from me is incessant mocking. Literally the only thing PvP could ever claim to have over PvE is that it can occasionally have some unpredictability. Arena PvP literally reduces unpredictability as much as is possible, making arena PvP the least PvP version of PvP that is available to us. This leaves open world PvP. As I said earlier, if you are being attacked in open world by random players, you are not playing top end PvP - if you were top end in regards to PvP, they would not attack you. This was literally my experience in Archeage after my guild disbanded (due to lack of content), and I moved to a new server. People would see the solo player that happened to be the only pirate on the server (as in, red to literally everyone else on the server), think that the four of them will take me on because pirate, look at the gear buff I have (when I transferred to the server, I had the best gear on the server by almost 10%) , and without fail they would just move on. Now, maybe by top end PvP you actually mean mid-range open world PvP, where people can and do attack you. If this is the case, then all I can say is that you don't know top end PvP, and are mistaking mid-range PvP for top end. You are literately talking out of your ass with 30-50 pve encounter literarily just stop lying. No game has 30-50 pve encounters that are all equally challenges and take ages to complete you only get a handful. And again once the puzzle is solved you look at a guide online follow it and have it much easier. No need to think you just follow the video. Show me where I said that all 30 - 50 encounters were equally challenging. You will not be able to find it, because I never said it, because that is not how it works. It doesn't work like that because game developers need to create content both for people that know what they are doing like me, and other people, like you. However, even easier encounters can be both interesting and enjoyable. There is no video to follow for what ashes if doing in pvp on this kind of scale with this many player period. There is no guide that will tell you how to react to everything players do and how things change in real time. Pvp isn't just limited to the giant battles, but again i need to repeat myself but making the guild, dealing with the drama, retaining your territory and players, etc. If you are playing a game where there are video guides for current content, you are paying a game with no competition. I personally don't play such games, because why would I? If you do, that's cool, you do you. However, don't make the assumption that just because videos of current content exist in the competition-less game you are playing, that they will exist in every game. Since there will be competition in Ashes, I would wager that most guilds will run a similar policy to guilds in EQ2 in relation to strategies to killing bosses. If you let out any secret, you are out of the guild. Guilds in EQ2 did this because the top end encounters in that game were open world - the first guild to kill it got the loot, everyone else misses out. Letting a guild on your server know how to kill a mob they were having trouble with would mean they would be able to get more loot faster, meaning that with the next open world boss spawn they would be in a better position to get that kill out from under you. As such, many raids from that game STILL don't have videos about them, almost two decades later. And this is a game that generally didn't even have PvP. Add PvP to that, and I see literally no reason at all why any guild in Ashes would release videos on current content.
Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Honestly you do not understand pvp, you are trying to boil my post down to 1v1 when i was never talking about 1v1 lmao. That right there shows you don't understand the work and challenges of high end pvp that will always be more difficult then PVE encounters in a game. Ok, so, what exactly is it you consider top end PvP? You can't be talking about guild based organized PvP here, surely. If you were, you would know that guild based PvP is almost exclusively about the few people on each side that are running things going against each other, and everyone else is just a peon that is there to do what they are told (essentially). Those at the top absolutely do fit in with what I was talking about above where PvP is the same few people taking on the same few people over and over again, with little to nothing at all really changing. While I was playing Archeage, the guild I was running was facing off against the same three guilds for a year and a half. It didn't matter if it was open PvP over a mob, naval PvP for trade packs or a fishing spot, an in game event, a guild war, or a castle siege - it was always the same three other guilds - because there were only four top end guilds on the server and no one else had the balls to really attack us (that is how you know you are top end in regards to PvP - you get very little PvP). When ever we were in a situation where we were up against one of those three guilds, we always knew about what to expect, because they always had the same people leading them. That persons brain isn't going to change, and so once you understand how that brain works, you have effectively solved the PvP version of solving a PvE puzzle. The problem is, the developers aren't going to replace that brain like they do with PvE encounters. Now, I have to also assume you aren't talking about arena PvP as being top end. If you are, all you will get back from me is incessant mocking. Literally the only thing PvP could ever claim to have over PvE is that it can occasionally have some unpredictability. Arena PvP literally reduces unpredictability as much as is possible, making arena PvP the least PvP version of PvP that is available to us. This leaves open world PvP. As I said earlier, if you are being attacked in open world by random players, you are not playing top end PvP - if you were top end in regards to PvP, they would not attack you. This was literally my experience in Archeage after my guild disbanded (due to lack of content), and I moved to a new server. People would see the solo player that happened to be the only pirate on the server (as in, red to literally everyone else on the server), think that the four of them will take me on because pirate, look at the gear buff I have (when I transferred to the server, I had the best gear on the server by almost 10%) , and without fail they would just move on. Now, maybe by top end PvP you actually mean mid-range open world PvP, where people can and do attack you. If this is the case, then all I can say is that you don't know top end PvP, and are mistaking mid-range PvP for top end. You are literately talking out of your ass with 30-50 pve encounter literarily just stop lying. No game has 30-50 pve encounters that are all equally challenges and take ages to complete you only get a handful. And again once the puzzle is solved you look at a guide online follow it and have it much easier. No need to think you just follow the video. Show me where I said that all 30 - 50 encounters were equally challenging. You will not be able to find it, because I never said it, because that is not how it works. It doesn't work like that because game developers need to create content both for people that know what they are doing like me, and other people, like you. However, even easier encounters can be both interesting and enjoyable. There is no video to follow for what ashes if doing in pvp on this kind of scale with this many player period. There is no guide that will tell you how to react to everything players do and how things change in real time. Pvp isn't just limited to the giant battles, but again i need to repeat myself but making the guild, dealing with the drama, retaining your territory and players, etc. If you are playing a game where there are video guides for current content, you are paying a game with no competition. I personally don't play such games, because why would I? If you do, that's cool, you do you. However, don't make the assumption that just because videos of current content exist in the competition-less game you are playing, that they will exist in every game. Since there will be competition in Ashes, I would wager that most guilds will run a similar policy to guilds in EQ2 in relation to strategies to killing bosses. If you let out any secret, you are out of the guild. Guilds in EQ2 did this because the top end encounters in that game were open world - the first guild to kill it got the loot, everyone else misses out. Letting a guild on your server know how to kill a mob they were having trouble with would mean they would be able to get more loot faster, meaning that with the next open world boss spawn they would be in a better position to get that kill out from under you. As such, many raids from that game STILL don't have videos about them, almost two decades later. And this is a game that generally didn't even have PvP. Add PvP to that, and I see literally no reason at all why any guild in Ashes would release videos on current content. Honestly you actually have to be cracked out right now you literally are agreeing with me without knowing if what you are saying is true LMAO. All forms of pvp are more challenging and honestly I don't feel like repeating myself when i made a large post going over it already you just want to ignore it and that is fine since you already agreed with me. If you are in a top guild and people don't attack you that is because of the difficulty and waste of time if they do attack you and are not prepared. Compared to PvE content where you just keep ramming against it til you beat it, find out the puzzle if its new (or just look at a guide and have it easy) and done and done. Same brain? a brain isn't a simple ai bud just because you are the same person doesn't mean you won't try new things, evolve your plan, etc. If one group does something that works and other group does the same thing that doesn't work every time I'd have to question the leadership. To continue with that notion which concerns me more then anything if you think people are simple minded and did the same thing or you did not see new things. I have to question at what stage were you playing the game if there was that lack of a challenge and was it a dead mmorpg at that time? If its dead you won't have a challenge since people aren't playing it.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Honestly you do not understand pvp, you are trying to boil my post down to 1v1 when i was never talking about 1v1 lmao. That right there shows you don't understand the work and challenges of high end pvp that will always be more difficult then PVE encounters in a game. Ok, so, what exactly is it you consider top end PvP? You can't be talking about guild based organized PvP here, surely. If you were, you would know that guild based PvP is almost exclusively about the few people on each side that are running things going against each other, and everyone else is just a peon that is there to do what they are told (essentially). Those at the top absolutely do fit in with what I was talking about above where PvP is the same few people taking on the same few people over and over again, with little to nothing at all really changing. While I was playing Archeage, the guild I was running was facing off against the same three guilds for a year and a half. It didn't matter if it was open PvP over a mob, naval PvP for trade packs or a fishing spot, an in game event, a guild war, or a castle siege - it was always the same three other guilds - because there were only four top end guilds on the server and no one else had the balls to really attack us (that is how you know you are top end in regards to PvP - you get very little PvP). When ever we were in a situation where we were up against one of those three guilds, we always knew about what to expect, because they always had the same people leading them. That persons brain isn't going to change, and so once you understand how that brain works, you have effectively solved the PvP version of solving a PvE puzzle. The problem is, the developers aren't going to replace that brain like they do with PvE encounters. Now, I have to also assume you aren't talking about arena PvP as being top end. If you are, all you will get back from me is incessant mocking. Literally the only thing PvP could ever claim to have over PvE is that it can occasionally have some unpredictability. Arena PvP literally reduces unpredictability as much as is possible, making arena PvP the least PvP version of PvP that is available to us. This leaves open world PvP. As I said earlier, if you are being attacked in open world by random players, you are not playing top end PvP - if you were top end in regards to PvP, they would not attack you. This was literally my experience in Archeage after my guild disbanded (due to lack of content), and I moved to a new server. People would see the solo player that happened to be the only pirate on the server (as in, red to literally everyone else on the server), think that the four of them will take me on because pirate, look at the gear buff I have (when I transferred to the server, I had the best gear on the server by almost 10%) , and without fail they would just move on. Now, maybe by top end PvP you actually mean mid-range open world PvP, where people can and do attack you. If this is the case, then all I can say is that you don't know top end PvP, and are mistaking mid-range PvP for top end. You are literately talking out of your ass with 30-50 pve encounter literarily just stop lying. No game has 30-50 pve encounters that are all equally challenges and take ages to complete you only get a handful. And again once the puzzle is solved you look at a guide online follow it and have it much easier. No need to think you just follow the video. Show me where I said that all 30 - 50 encounters were equally challenging. You will not be able to find it, because I never said it, because that is not how it works. It doesn't work like that because game developers need to create content both for people that know what they are doing like me, and other people, like you. However, even easier encounters can be both interesting and enjoyable. There is no video to follow for what ashes if doing in pvp on this kind of scale with this many player period. There is no guide that will tell you how to react to everything players do and how things change in real time. Pvp isn't just limited to the giant battles, but again i need to repeat myself but making the guild, dealing with the drama, retaining your territory and players, etc. If you are playing a game where there are video guides for current content, you are paying a game with no competition. I personally don't play such games, because why would I? If you do, that's cool, you do you. However, don't make the assumption that just because videos of current content exist in the competition-less game you are playing, that they will exist in every game. Since there will be competition in Ashes, I would wager that most guilds will run a similar policy to guilds in EQ2 in relation to strategies to killing bosses. If you let out any secret, you are out of the guild. Guilds in EQ2 did this because the top end encounters in that game were open world - the first guild to kill it got the loot, everyone else misses out. Letting a guild on your server know how to kill a mob they were having trouble with would mean they would be able to get more loot faster, meaning that with the next open world boss spawn they would be in a better position to get that kill out from under you. As such, many raids from that game STILL don't have videos about them, almost two decades later. And this is a game that generally didn't even have PvP. Add PvP to that, and I see literally no reason at all why any guild in Ashes would release videos on current content. Honestly you actually have to be cracked out right now you literally are agreeing with me without knowing if what you are saying is true LMAO. All forms of pvp are more challenging and honestly I don't feel like repeating myself when i made a large post going over it already you just want to ignore it and that is fine since you already agreed with me. If you are in a top guild and people don't attack you that is because of the difficulty and waste of time if they do attack you and are not prepared. Compared to PvE content where you just keep ramming against it til you beat it, find out the puzzle if its new (or just look at a guide and have it easy) and done and done. Same brain? a brain isn't a simple ai bud just because you are the same person doesn't mean you won't try new things, evolve your plan, etc. If one group does something that works and other group does the same thing that doesn't work every time I'd have to question the leadership. To continue with that notion which concerns me more then anything if you think people are simple minded and did the same thing or you did not see new things. I have to question at what stage were you playing the game if there was that lack of a challenge and was it a dead mmorpg at that time? If its dead you won't have a challenge since people aren't playing it. In high stress situations, human brains are very close to simple AI. It is far more likely (based on your reactions to someone who, as far as I can see, gave you a direct information point from their own experience), that you are the one who has not played things at a high level."Now, maybe by top end PvP you actually mean mid-range open world PvP, where people can and do attack you. If this is the case, then all I can say is that you don't know top end PvP, and are mistaking mid-range PvP for top end." The above is more likely to be true in this case, if it is not true, you are making your arguments quite poorly, giving the impression that it is true. I suggest attempting to address this aspect first, there is no way for this conversation to proceed in a useful way for Intrepid otherwise.
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Honestly you do not understand pvp, you are trying to boil my post down to 1v1 when i was never talking about 1v1 lmao. That right there shows you don't understand the work and challenges of high end pvp that will always be more difficult then PVE encounters in a game. Ok, so, what exactly is it you consider top end PvP? You can't be talking about guild based organized PvP here, surely. If you were, you would know that guild based PvP is almost exclusively about the few people on each side that are running things going against each other, and everyone else is just a peon that is there to do what they are told (essentially). Those at the top absolutely do fit in with what I was talking about above where PvP is the same few people taking on the same few people over and over again, with little to nothing at all really changing. While I was playing Archeage, the guild I was running was facing off against the same three guilds for a year and a half. It didn't matter if it was open PvP over a mob, naval PvP for trade packs or a fishing spot, an in game event, a guild war, or a castle siege - it was always the same three other guilds - because there were only four top end guilds on the server and no one else had the balls to really attack us (that is how you know you are top end in regards to PvP - you get very little PvP). When ever we were in a situation where we were up against one of those three guilds, we always knew about what to expect, because they always had the same people leading them. That persons brain isn't going to change, and so once you understand how that brain works, you have effectively solved the PvP version of solving a PvE puzzle. The problem is, the developers aren't going to replace that brain like they do with PvE encounters. Now, I have to also assume you aren't talking about arena PvP as being top end. If you are, all you will get back from me is incessant mocking. Literally the only thing PvP could ever claim to have over PvE is that it can occasionally have some unpredictability. Arena PvP literally reduces unpredictability as much as is possible, making arena PvP the least PvP version of PvP that is available to us. This leaves open world PvP. As I said earlier, if you are being attacked in open world by random players, you are not playing top end PvP - if you were top end in regards to PvP, they would not attack you. This was literally my experience in Archeage after my guild disbanded (due to lack of content), and I moved to a new server. People would see the solo player that happened to be the only pirate on the server (as in, red to literally everyone else on the server), think that the four of them will take me on because pirate, look at the gear buff I have (when I transferred to the server, I had the best gear on the server by almost 10%) , and without fail they would just move on. Now, maybe by top end PvP you actually mean mid-range open world PvP, where people can and do attack you. If this is the case, then all I can say is that you don't know top end PvP, and are mistaking mid-range PvP for top end. You are literately talking out of your ass with 30-50 pve encounter literarily just stop lying. No game has 30-50 pve encounters that are all equally challenges and take ages to complete you only get a handful. And again once the puzzle is solved you look at a guide online follow it and have it much easier. No need to think you just follow the video. Show me where I said that all 30 - 50 encounters were equally challenging. You will not be able to find it, because I never said it, because that is not how it works. It doesn't work like that because game developers need to create content both for people that know what they are doing like me, and other people, like you. However, even easier encounters can be both interesting and enjoyable. There is no video to follow for what ashes if doing in pvp on this kind of scale with this many player period. There is no guide that will tell you how to react to everything players do and how things change in real time. Pvp isn't just limited to the giant battles, but again i need to repeat myself but making the guild, dealing with the drama, retaining your territory and players, etc. If you are playing a game where there are video guides for current content, you are paying a game with no competition. I personally don't play such games, because why would I? If you do, that's cool, you do you. However, don't make the assumption that just because videos of current content exist in the competition-less game you are playing, that they will exist in every game. Since there will be competition in Ashes, I would wager that most guilds will run a similar policy to guilds in EQ2 in relation to strategies to killing bosses. If you let out any secret, you are out of the guild. Guilds in EQ2 did this because the top end encounters in that game were open world - the first guild to kill it got the loot, everyone else misses out. Letting a guild on your server know how to kill a mob they were having trouble with would mean they would be able to get more loot faster, meaning that with the next open world boss spawn they would be in a better position to get that kill out from under you. As such, many raids from that game STILL don't have videos about them, almost two decades later. And this is a game that generally didn't even have PvP. Add PvP to that, and I see literally no reason at all why any guild in Ashes would release videos on current content. Honestly you actually have to be cracked out right now you literally are agreeing with me without knowing if what you are saying is true LMAO. All forms of pvp are more challenging and honestly I don't feel like repeating myself when i made a large post going over it already you just want to ignore it and that is fine since you already agreed with me. If you are in a top guild and people don't attack you that is because of the difficulty and waste of time if they do attack you and are not prepared. Compared to PvE content where you just keep ramming against it til you beat it, find out the puzzle if its new (or just look at a guide and have it easy) and done and done. Same brain? a brain isn't a simple ai bud just because you are the same person doesn't mean you won't try new things, evolve your plan, etc. If one group does something that works and other group does the same thing that doesn't work every time I'd have to question the leadership. To continue with that notion which concerns me more then anything if you think people are simple minded and did the same thing or you did not see new things. I have to question at what stage were you playing the game if there was that lack of a challenge and was it a dead mmorpg at that time? If its dead you won't have a challenge since people aren't playing it. In high stress situations, human brains are very close to simple AI. It is far more likely (based on your reactions to someone who, as far as I can see, gave you a direct information point from their own experience), that you are the one who has not played things at a high level."Now, maybe by top end PvP you actually mean mid-range open world PvP, where people can and do attack you. If this is the case, then all I can say is that you don't know top end PvP, and are mistaking mid-range PvP for top end." The above is more likely to be true in this case, if it is not true, you are making your arguments quite poorly, giving the impression that it is true. I suggest attempting to address this aspect first, there is no way for this conversation to proceed in a useful way for Intrepid otherwise. Gaming is a high stress situation? You all are really trying to spin hard that pve is more difficult then pvp. It actually is crazy. And no i have first hand experience with pvp for a bunch of games. No matter how you try to word it, i think that is one of the most dumb points you can make trying to say AI is more difficult then dealing with a human.
Mag7spy wrote: » No matter how you try to word it, i think that is one of the most dumb points you can make trying to say AI is more difficult then dealing with a human.
Noaani wrote: » I can tell you haven't played top end PvP in a server segregated, persistent world MMO game with this post. Sure, a single boss is a puzzle, and generally speaking, once you solve it, it becomes easier. The thing is, the developers add new mobs, with new puzzles, and if they are doing their job well, you never run out of new puzzles to solve. With players in PvP though, it's exactly the same. Once you figure out a players strengths or weaknesses, they virtually never change. Players dont just suddenly gain faster reaction skill, as an example.
Okeydoke wrote: » Mag7spy, the debate tactic of deflection is being used against you lol. It is technically true that AI/Pve can be made harder than pvp. AI can be made infinitely hard. Just change a given bosses attack and defense rating from 100 to 10 trillion. Done. Hardest thing ever potentially. Even harder than colonizing Mars, or curing cancer. But it gets even worse than that. AI can be made all knowing. It can be programmed to cheat essentially. It can fully know your gear, your loadout, and abilities. And it can be programmed to counter all these things as needed with virtually instantaneous reaction times. And it can be given any number of insane mechanics. Generally content isn't made like this though. It's finely tailored by the devs under the framework of, ok we want 1% of the population to be able to beat this boss. Or ok this boss, we want about 10% of players to be able to beat it, or 20, 40, 60, 80, 100%. However hard they want the encounter to be, that's how hard they make it. But generally speaking, it's beatable by someone. And there's the hard cap. It can only be and only IS so hard. I'm sure someone has some example of a boss that was too over tuned and was unbeatable. Well congrats you found the 1 in 10,000 scenario to try to completely derail the discussion. Another silly, overused debate tactic. But generally pve is made to be beaten, and it pretty much always is beaten, or toned down. So top tier pvp. What even is top tier pvp? Kind of subjective. Less defined than top tier pve. Some would say 3v3 arenas, others might say WoW BG's, and others would say open world pvp and all that it entails. Well in the case of open world pvp, it absolutely can be and is at times harder than top tier pve. It can be hard to the point of impossible. Because it's not tailored. It's not formulaic. There's no script of what's going to happen and how it's going to happen to you. Sometimes you encounter situations that are just not winnable. 5 vs 30 can be winnable. 5 vs 60 can be impossible. We don't even need to "make that one mistake" that gets the whole raid killed. We're dead either way. It's that hard. Every member of our 5 is pushing their class and their skills to the max against an onslaught of human players. Success isn't measured by coming out on top(although often you just might), it's how many we managed to take with us. Or we're we able to escape. Or we're we able to complete some objective before dying. Part of the difficulty of top tier pvp is to avoid these unwinnable situations. They can be avoided to some extent, but sometimes they're just going to happen. You need a good shotcaller, same as you need a good shotcaller for top tier pve. But the difference is that the pve encounter is static, and the pvp encounter is dynamic, where overwhelming odds can be applied against you in an instant. It takes a whole different skillset and mindset to deal with.
Azherae wrote: » And since owPvP games innately have 'being outnumbered' as a completely valid part of the challenge, it's quite shortsighted to ignore this as part of the definition of 'PvP can be more challenging than PvE'.
NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » And since owPvP games innately have 'being outnumbered' as a completely valid part of the challenge, it's quite shortsighted to ignore this as part of the definition of 'PvP can be more challenging than PvE'. And on top of just "outnumbered", it could be "they counter me in RPS" or they have stronger gear. Or it could be a combination of either of those or all at once. And that kind of variety not only brings dynamism (which I do consider the main difference in the example you gave) to the fight, but also way more paths to potential victory, especially if we consider party vs party pvp. I think the main problem of Noaani's argument is the fact that he got to the top of pvp in AA, while he was still struggling in pve in EQ (unless I missed a mention of him clearing all the content that was present in the game at the time of him playing it). When you're at the very top of pvp to such a point that no one even fights you (outside of the usual people at the same top), you've "beaten" the game. And if the game's design doesn't allow other people below you to get to your power lvl or at least beat you from time to time - that's a badly designed game imo. And the same can be said about PvE. Once you've beaten all the pve content in the game - all the content is easy. The execution itself might give you some trouble, but you've solved the puzzle already and the AI ain't changing until the next update, so the encounter itself is not much harder than those pvpers who're at the same top as you. You know moveset and "logic" of both, so your combat might stop being as engaging as it was when you were struggling against either of them. And this is where the renewed content comes into play. Imo the ideal mmo with pvp in it should change up its balancing with each update/expansion, the same way it updates its pve content. This way you can't always be at the top, because the power placement will shift and you'll have someone new to struggle against. The main and obvious problem with this kind of setup is of course the damned players. Because instead of enjoying a challenging pvp after the new update, they'll just complain that their class got nerfed and will go level up another character of the "now OP" class. And due to previously being at the top, they'll have a much easier way back to the top, because they'll have access to the required gear and they'll have way faster leveling thanks to their guild. And now they'll hit the pvp top yet again and will now go back to complaining about how pvp is boring and super easy. It's the age-old issue of people being dumb and stubborn against their own good.
Azherae wrote: » You've been at the top of PvP on your server though, so I don't know why you'd say these things? Lineage PvP does not look that easy.
Azherae wrote: » But I honestly disagree with SO MANY things in this post from the perspective of 'would I want to play a game like this', that I can skip it all. If Ashes PvP is implemented in the way you're implying, I have no reason to play it. Their game doesn't support that type of PvP as far as I'm concerned, and it would make the experience highly unpleasant for me personally.
Azherae wrote: » More power to everyone who enjoys: 1. Large gear disparity. 2. Hard counters even in groups 3. Consistent meta shakeups involving nerfing classes to provide 'challenge'.
Azherae wrote: » I'm not a person who plays games with weak dynamism in its PvE, either... So I can say that for me PERSONALLY I don't WANT Ashes to be designed with any of the things you or Mag suggests, but I can just keep hoping for a different game to play if it is, whereas I feel like y'all will be stuck if Steven doesn't go all in.
