NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » You've been at the top of PvP on your server though, so I don't know why you'd say these things? Lineage PvP does not look that easy. I mean, yeah, it's not easy while you're climbing up and it's not easy against other people at the top, once you get there. But when you've been at the top for a while and nothing gear/class/RPS-wise has changed - it can get pretty close to what Noaani described. You know your opponent so well, that your pvp becomes a pretty casual move through a binary choice tree. "Did they start with this skill? Then I use this. Did they answer in this way? Then I do this. So on and so on". Obviously it still requires skill to execute that kind of interaction and come out on top, but I'd assume it's no harder than a top lvl pve player doing a top difficulty pve encounter for the hundredth time. The base requirement of skill is really damn high, but you're already used to executing actions perfectly at that lvl, so, in comparison to your lower lvl fights upwards, this is now relatively easy. Though I might be wrong in that assumption, cause I haven't participated in instanced top lvl pve in raiding games. Azherae wrote: » But I honestly disagree with SO MANY things in this post from the perspective of 'would I want to play a game like this', that I can skip it all. If Ashes PvP is implemented in the way you're implying, I have no reason to play it. Their game doesn't support that type of PvP as far as I'm concerned, and it would make the experience highly unpleasant for me personally. I'm not a fighting gamer so I don't know if fighting games get balance updates/patches or if it's just "wait until the next installation in the series comes out"-type of thing, but how do top ranks not "solve" each other after weeks/months of playing together at the top? Or do people just start learning more characters once they've hit max rank with one? Or do you just want to differentiate how it is in fighting game from how it is in mmos? Azherae wrote: » More power to everyone who enjoys: 1. Large gear disparity. 2. Hard counters even in groups 3. Consistent meta shakeups involving nerfing classes to provide 'challenge'. I mean, L2 had a fairly tight gear scaling and, while there were some counters in party pvp, there was nothing that couldn't be overcome with skill/gear. The meta shakeups definitely happened though. There was a mage era, an archer era, a dagger era, a fighter era, a particular class being especially strong era - but through all of those, you could still try and fight through gear or personal skill, or counter party setups. The RPS would just shift from one setup to another. You were still stronger against some people, but weaker against others - those people just changed. Azherae wrote: » I'm not a person who plays games with weak dynamism in its PvE, either... So I can say that for me PERSONALLY I don't WANT Ashes to be designed with any of the things you or Mag suggests, but I can just keep hoping for a different game to play if it is, whereas I feel like y'all will be stuck if Steven doesn't go all in. Maybe I misunderstand what dynamism means in this context. I was thinking in the lines of "with a pve boss fight you know Boss' AI, you know his moves and you know what to do to avoid them" and to me that seems like a low dynamism setup. While with the variables I've listed for pvp matchups you don't really know what kind of situation you might be in when you're out and about. You might come across 3 people that are weaker geared so you manage to beat them. You might come across one stronger geared person and they beat you (even if not by a large margin). You might come across a full party and manage to outkite them because of your classes high maneuverability. Or you, as a full party, might come across 200+ people and, while dying at the end, kill a good chunk of them because you're not only outgearing them, but also outskilling and outmicro-managing them (I've posted a vid of party vs a shitton of people from L2 before). To me that seems like a high-dynamism system. Your direct mechanical input might not differ from the pve example, but the result will be drastically different, depending on the matchup.
Azherae wrote: » You've been at the top of PvP on your server though, so I don't know why you'd say these things? Lineage PvP does not look that easy.
Azherae wrote: » But I honestly disagree with SO MANY things in this post from the perspective of 'would I want to play a game like this', that I can skip it all. If Ashes PvP is implemented in the way you're implying, I have no reason to play it. Their game doesn't support that type of PvP as far as I'm concerned, and it would make the experience highly unpleasant for me personally.
Azherae wrote: » More power to everyone who enjoys: 1. Large gear disparity. 2. Hard counters even in groups 3. Consistent meta shakeups involving nerfing classes to provide 'challenge'.
Azherae wrote: » I'm not a person who plays games with weak dynamism in its PvE, either... So I can say that for me PERSONALLY I don't WANT Ashes to be designed with any of the things you or Mag suggests, but I can just keep hoping for a different game to play if it is, whereas I feel like y'all will be stuck if Steven doesn't go all in.
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » No matter how you try to word it, i think that is one of the most dumb points you can make trying to say AI is more difficult then dealing with a human. Since you seem incapable of answering questions, I don't think I'll bother asking another one. All I will do is point out that I can indeed see two possibilities as to how a person could have the opinion you are sharing here, and back it up enough that it seems obvious that they actually believe it. The first is that the person in question has never seen top end PvE. If all you have seen is base population, then one could have the opinion that PvP is harder. The second possibility is that the person in question is just bad at PvP. In this case, clearly that person would think PvP is harder. It is worth noting that a person holding this view, regardless of which of the above are true (and one of them has to be true) must also only be speaking from their own subjective experience. Said person must not look at what is happening outside of their own subjective experience.
Mag7spy wrote: » No matter how you try to word it, i think that is one of the most dumb points you can make trying to say AI is more difficult then dealing with a human.
Azherae wrote: » What I don't understand is the difference between 'I am outnumbered, the enemy can do way more damage than I can in the same amount of time' and 'This boss has attacks that can do way more damage to me than I can handle'. Is there a difference other than dynamism? The boss is 'scripted' to do damage that is controlled, the enemy group, by numbers alone, is not. I've never thought of 'bosses that hit too hard for the situation to be dealt with' in that way before, but if the argument was 'PvP is dynamic because you could find yourself in a 5v60' then I did in fact misunderstand you @Mag7spy
Okeydoke wrote: » Mag7spy, the debate tactic of deflection is being used against you lol. It is technically true that AI/Pve can be made harder than pvp. AI can be made infinitely hard. Just change a given bosses attack and defense rating from 100 to 10 trillion. Done. Hardest thing ever potentially. Even harder than colonizing Mars, or curing cancer. But it gets even worse than that. AI can be made all knowing. It can be programmed to cheat essentially. It can fully know your gear, your loadout, and abilities. And it can be programmed to counter all these things as needed with virtually instantaneous reaction times. And it can be given any number of insane mechanics. Generally content isn't made like this though. It's finely tailored by the devs under the framework of, ok we want 1% of the population to be able to beat this boss. Or ok this boss, we want about 10% of players to be able to beat it, or 20, 40, 60, 80, 100%. However hard they want the encounter to be, that's how hard they make it. But generally speaking, it's beatable by someone. And there's the hard cap. It can only be and only IS so hard. I'm sure someone has some example of a boss that was too over tuned and was unbeatable. Well congrats you found the 1 in 10,000 scenario to try to completely derail the discussion. Another silly, overused debate tactic. But generally pve is made to be beaten, and it pretty much always is beaten, or toned down. So top tier pvp. What even is top tier pvp? Kind of subjective. Less defined than top tier pve. Some would say 3v3 arenas, others might say WoW BG's, and others would say open world pvp and all that it entails. Well in the case of open world pvp, it absolutely can be and is at times harder than top tier pve. It can be hard to the point of impossible. Because it's not tailored. It's not formulaic. There's no script of what's going to happen and how it's going to happen to you. Sometimes you encounter situations that are just not winnable. 5 vs 30 can be winnable. 5 vs 60 can be impossible. We don't even need to "make that one mistake" that gets the whole raid killed. We're dead either way. It's that hard. Every member of our 5 is pushing their class and their skills to the max against an onslaught of human players. Success isn't measured by coming out on top(although often you just might), it's how many we managed to take with us. Or we're we able to escape. Or we're we able to complete some objective before dying. Part of the difficulty of top tier pvp is to avoid these unwinnable situations. They can be avoided to some extent, but sometimes they're just going to happen. You need a good shotcaller, same as you need a good shotcaller for top tier pve. But the difference is that the pve encounter is static, and the pvp encounter is dynamic, where overwhelming odds can be applied against you in an instant. It takes a whole different skillset and mindset to deal with.
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Honestly you do not understand pvp, you are trying to boil my post down to 1v1 when i was never talking about 1v1 lmao. That right there shows you don't understand the work and challenges of high end pvp that will always be more difficult then PVE encounters in a game. Ok, so, what exactly is it you consider top end PvP? You can't be talking about guild based organized PvP here, surely. If you were, you would know that guild based PvP is almost exclusively about the few people on each side that are running things going against each other, and everyone else is just a peon that is there to do what they are told (essentially). Those at the top absolutely do fit in with what I was talking about above where PvP is the same few people taking on the same few people over and over again, with little to nothing at all really changing. While I was playing Archeage, the guild I was running was facing off against the same three guilds for a year and a half. It didn't matter if it was open PvP over a mob, naval PvP for trade packs or a fishing spot, an in game event, a guild war, or a castle siege - it was always the same three other guilds - because there were only four top end guilds on the server and no one else had the balls to really attack us (that is how you know you are top end in regards to PvP - you get very little PvP). When ever we were in a situation where we were up against one of those three guilds, we always knew about what to expect, because they always had the same people leading them. That persons brain isn't going to change, and so once you understand how that brain works, you have effectively solved the PvP version of solving a PvE puzzle. The problem is, the developers aren't going to replace that brain like they do with PvE encounters. Now, I have to also assume you aren't talking about arena PvP as being top end. If you are, all you will get back from me is incessant mocking. Literally the only thing PvP could ever claim to have over PvE is that it can occasionally have some unpredictability. Arena PvP literally reduces unpredictability as much as is possible, making arena PvP the least PvP version of PvP that is available to us. This leaves open world PvP. As I said earlier, if you are being attacked in open world by random players, you are not playing top end PvP - if you were top end in regards to PvP, they would not attack you. This was literally my experience in Archeage after my guild disbanded (due to lack of content), and I moved to a new server. People would see the solo player that happened to be the only pirate on the server (as in, red to literally everyone else on the server), think that the four of them will take me on because pirate, look at the gear buff I have (when I transferred to the server, I had the best gear on the server by almost 10%) , and without fail they would just move on. Now, maybe by top end PvP you actually mean mid-range open world PvP, where people can and do attack you. If this is the case, then all I can say is that you don't know top end PvP, and are mistaking mid-range PvP for top end. You are literately talking out of your ass with 30-50 pve encounter literarily just stop lying. No game has 30-50 pve encounters that are all equally challenges and take ages to complete you only get a handful. And again once the puzzle is solved you look at a guide online follow it and have it much easier. No need to think you just follow the video. Show me where I said that all 30 - 50 encounters were equally challenging. You will not be able to find it, because I never said it, because that is not how it works. It doesn't work like that because game developers need to create content both for people that know what they are doing like me, and other people, like you. However, even easier encounters can be both interesting and enjoyable. There is no video to follow for what ashes if doing in pvp on this kind of scale with this many player period. There is no guide that will tell you how to react to everything players do and how things change in real time. Pvp isn't just limited to the giant battles, but again i need to repeat myself but making the guild, dealing with the drama, retaining your territory and players, etc. If you are playing a game where there are video guides for current content, you are paying a game with no competition. I personally don't play such games, because why would I? If you do, that's cool, you do you. However, don't make the assumption that just because videos of current content exist in the competition-less game you are playing, that they will exist in every game. Since there will be competition in Ashes, I would wager that most guilds will run a similar policy to guilds in EQ2 in relation to strategies to killing bosses. If you let out any secret, you are out of the guild. Guilds in EQ2 did this because the top end encounters in that game were open world - the first guild to kill it got the loot, everyone else misses out. Letting a guild on your server know how to kill a mob they were having trouble with would mean they would be able to get more loot faster, meaning that with the next open world boss spawn they would be in a better position to get that kill out from under you. As such, many raids from that game STILL don't have videos about them, almost two decades later. And this is a game that generally didn't even have PvP. Add PvP to that, and I see literally no reason at all why any guild in Ashes would release videos on current content. Honestly you actually have to be cracked out right now you literally are agreeing with me without knowing if what you are saying is true LMAO. All forms of pvp are more challenging and honestly I don't feel like repeating myself when i made a large post going over it already you just want to ignore it and that is fine since you already agreed with me. If you are in a top guild and people don't attack you that is because of the difficulty and waste of time if they do attack you and are not prepared. Compared to PvE content where you just keep ramming against it til you beat it, find out the puzzle if its new (or just look at a guide and have it easy) and done and done. Same brain? a brain isn't a simple ai bud just because you are the same person doesn't mean you won't try new things, evolve your plan, etc. If one group does something that works and other group does the same thing that doesn't work every time I'd have to question the leadership. To continue with that notion which concerns me more then anything if you think people are simple minded and did the same thing or you did not see new things. I have to question at what stage were you playing the game if there was that lack of a challenge and was it a dead mmorpg at that time? If its dead you won't have a challenge since people aren't playing it. In high stress situations, human brains are very close to simple AI. It is far more likely (based on your reactions to someone who, as far as I can see, gave you a direct information point from their own experience), that you are the one who has not played things at a high level."Now, maybe by top end PvP you actually mean mid-range open world PvP, where people can and do attack you. If this is the case, then all I can say is that you don't know top end PvP, and are mistaking mid-range PvP for top end." The above is more likely to be true in this case, if it is not true, you are making your arguments quite poorly, giving the impression that it is true. I suggest attempting to address this aspect first, there is no way for this conversation to proceed in a useful way for Intrepid otherwise. Gaming is a high stress situation? You all are really trying to spin hard that pve is more difficult then pvp. It actually is crazy. And no i have first hand experience with pvp for a bunch of games. No matter how you try to word it, i think that is one of the most dumb points you can make trying to say AI is more difficult then dealing with a human.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Honestly you do not understand pvp, you are trying to boil my post down to 1v1 when i was never talking about 1v1 lmao. That right there shows you don't understand the work and challenges of high end pvp that will always be more difficult then PVE encounters in a game. Ok, so, what exactly is it you consider top end PvP? You can't be talking about guild based organized PvP here, surely. If you were, you would know that guild based PvP is almost exclusively about the few people on each side that are running things going against each other, and everyone else is just a peon that is there to do what they are told (essentially). Those at the top absolutely do fit in with what I was talking about above where PvP is the same few people taking on the same few people over and over again, with little to nothing at all really changing. While I was playing Archeage, the guild I was running was facing off against the same three guilds for a year and a half. It didn't matter if it was open PvP over a mob, naval PvP for trade packs or a fishing spot, an in game event, a guild war, or a castle siege - it was always the same three other guilds - because there were only four top end guilds on the server and no one else had the balls to really attack us (that is how you know you are top end in regards to PvP - you get very little PvP). When ever we were in a situation where we were up against one of those three guilds, we always knew about what to expect, because they always had the same people leading them. That persons brain isn't going to change, and so once you understand how that brain works, you have effectively solved the PvP version of solving a PvE puzzle. The problem is, the developers aren't going to replace that brain like they do with PvE encounters. Now, I have to also assume you aren't talking about arena PvP as being top end. If you are, all you will get back from me is incessant mocking. Literally the only thing PvP could ever claim to have over PvE is that it can occasionally have some unpredictability. Arena PvP literally reduces unpredictability as much as is possible, making arena PvP the least PvP version of PvP that is available to us. This leaves open world PvP. As I said earlier, if you are being attacked in open world by random players, you are not playing top end PvP - if you were top end in regards to PvP, they would not attack you. This was literally my experience in Archeage after my guild disbanded (due to lack of content), and I moved to a new server. People would see the solo player that happened to be the only pirate on the server (as in, red to literally everyone else on the server), think that the four of them will take me on because pirate, look at the gear buff I have (when I transferred to the server, I had the best gear on the server by almost 10%) , and without fail they would just move on. Now, maybe by top end PvP you actually mean mid-range open world PvP, where people can and do attack you. If this is the case, then all I can say is that you don't know top end PvP, and are mistaking mid-range PvP for top end. You are literately talking out of your ass with 30-50 pve encounter literarily just stop lying. No game has 30-50 pve encounters that are all equally challenges and take ages to complete you only get a handful. And again once the puzzle is solved you look at a guide online follow it and have it much easier. No need to think you just follow the video. Show me where I said that all 30 - 50 encounters were equally challenging. You will not be able to find it, because I never said it, because that is not how it works. It doesn't work like that because game developers need to create content both for people that know what they are doing like me, and other people, like you. However, even easier encounters can be both interesting and enjoyable. There is no video to follow for what ashes if doing in pvp on this kind of scale with this many player period. There is no guide that will tell you how to react to everything players do and how things change in real time. Pvp isn't just limited to the giant battles, but again i need to repeat myself but making the guild, dealing with the drama, retaining your territory and players, etc. If you are playing a game where there are video guides for current content, you are paying a game with no competition. I personally don't play such games, because why would I? If you do, that's cool, you do you. However, don't make the assumption that just because videos of current content exist in the competition-less game you are playing, that they will exist in every game. Since there will be competition in Ashes, I would wager that most guilds will run a similar policy to guilds in EQ2 in relation to strategies to killing bosses. If you let out any secret, you are out of the guild. Guilds in EQ2 did this because the top end encounters in that game were open world - the first guild to kill it got the loot, everyone else misses out. Letting a guild on your server know how to kill a mob they were having trouble with would mean they would be able to get more loot faster, meaning that with the next open world boss spawn they would be in a better position to get that kill out from under you. As such, many raids from that game STILL don't have videos about them, almost two decades later. And this is a game that generally didn't even have PvP. Add PvP to that, and I see literally no reason at all why any guild in Ashes would release videos on current content. Honestly you actually have to be cracked out right now you literally are agreeing with me without knowing if what you are saying is true LMAO. All forms of pvp are more challenging and honestly I don't feel like repeating myself when i made a large post going over it already you just want to ignore it and that is fine since you already agreed with me. If you are in a top guild and people don't attack you that is because of the difficulty and waste of time if they do attack you and are not prepared. Compared to PvE content where you just keep ramming against it til you beat it, find out the puzzle if its new (or just look at a guide and have it easy) and done and done. Same brain? a brain isn't a simple ai bud just because you are the same person doesn't mean you won't try new things, evolve your plan, etc. If one group does something that works and other group does the same thing that doesn't work every time I'd have to question the leadership. To continue with that notion which concerns me more then anything if you think people are simple minded and did the same thing or you did not see new things. I have to question at what stage were you playing the game if there was that lack of a challenge and was it a dead mmorpg at that time? If its dead you won't have a challenge since people aren't playing it. In high stress situations, human brains are very close to simple AI. It is far more likely (based on your reactions to someone who, as far as I can see, gave you a direct information point from their own experience), that you are the one who has not played things at a high level."Now, maybe by top end PvP you actually mean mid-range open world PvP, where people can and do attack you. If this is the case, then all I can say is that you don't know top end PvP, and are mistaking mid-range PvP for top end." The above is more likely to be true in this case, if it is not true, you are making your arguments quite poorly, giving the impression that it is true. I suggest attempting to address this aspect first, there is no way for this conversation to proceed in a useful way for Intrepid otherwise.
Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Honestly you do not understand pvp, you are trying to boil my post down to 1v1 when i was never talking about 1v1 lmao. That right there shows you don't understand the work and challenges of high end pvp that will always be more difficult then PVE encounters in a game. Ok, so, what exactly is it you consider top end PvP? You can't be talking about guild based organized PvP here, surely. If you were, you would know that guild based PvP is almost exclusively about the few people on each side that are running things going against each other, and everyone else is just a peon that is there to do what they are told (essentially). Those at the top absolutely do fit in with what I was talking about above where PvP is the same few people taking on the same few people over and over again, with little to nothing at all really changing. While I was playing Archeage, the guild I was running was facing off against the same three guilds for a year and a half. It didn't matter if it was open PvP over a mob, naval PvP for trade packs or a fishing spot, an in game event, a guild war, or a castle siege - it was always the same three other guilds - because there were only four top end guilds on the server and no one else had the balls to really attack us (that is how you know you are top end in regards to PvP - you get very little PvP). When ever we were in a situation where we were up against one of those three guilds, we always knew about what to expect, because they always had the same people leading them. That persons brain isn't going to change, and so once you understand how that brain works, you have effectively solved the PvP version of solving a PvE puzzle. The problem is, the developers aren't going to replace that brain like they do with PvE encounters. Now, I have to also assume you aren't talking about arena PvP as being top end. If you are, all you will get back from me is incessant mocking. Literally the only thing PvP could ever claim to have over PvE is that it can occasionally have some unpredictability. Arena PvP literally reduces unpredictability as much as is possible, making arena PvP the least PvP version of PvP that is available to us. This leaves open world PvP. As I said earlier, if you are being attacked in open world by random players, you are not playing top end PvP - if you were top end in regards to PvP, they would not attack you. This was literally my experience in Archeage after my guild disbanded (due to lack of content), and I moved to a new server. People would see the solo player that happened to be the only pirate on the server (as in, red to literally everyone else on the server), think that the four of them will take me on because pirate, look at the gear buff I have (when I transferred to the server, I had the best gear on the server by almost 10%) , and without fail they would just move on. Now, maybe by top end PvP you actually mean mid-range open world PvP, where people can and do attack you. If this is the case, then all I can say is that you don't know top end PvP, and are mistaking mid-range PvP for top end. You are literately talking out of your ass with 30-50 pve encounter literarily just stop lying. No game has 30-50 pve encounters that are all equally challenges and take ages to complete you only get a handful. And again once the puzzle is solved you look at a guide online follow it and have it much easier. No need to think you just follow the video. Show me where I said that all 30 - 50 encounters were equally challenging. You will not be able to find it, because I never said it, because that is not how it works. It doesn't work like that because game developers need to create content both for people that know what they are doing like me, and other people, like you. However, even easier encounters can be both interesting and enjoyable. There is no video to follow for what ashes if doing in pvp on this kind of scale with this many player period. There is no guide that will tell you how to react to everything players do and how things change in real time. Pvp isn't just limited to the giant battles, but again i need to repeat myself but making the guild, dealing with the drama, retaining your territory and players, etc. If you are playing a game where there are video guides for current content, you are paying a game with no competition. I personally don't play such games, because why would I? If you do, that's cool, you do you. However, don't make the assumption that just because videos of current content exist in the competition-less game you are playing, that they will exist in every game. Since there will be competition in Ashes, I would wager that most guilds will run a similar policy to guilds in EQ2 in relation to strategies to killing bosses. If you let out any secret, you are out of the guild. Guilds in EQ2 did this because the top end encounters in that game were open world - the first guild to kill it got the loot, everyone else misses out. Letting a guild on your server know how to kill a mob they were having trouble with would mean they would be able to get more loot faster, meaning that with the next open world boss spawn they would be in a better position to get that kill out from under you. As such, many raids from that game STILL don't have videos about them, almost two decades later. And this is a game that generally didn't even have PvP. Add PvP to that, and I see literally no reason at all why any guild in Ashes would release videos on current content. Honestly you actually have to be cracked out right now you literally are agreeing with me without knowing if what you are saying is true LMAO. All forms of pvp are more challenging and honestly I don't feel like repeating myself when i made a large post going over it already you just want to ignore it and that is fine since you already agreed with me. If you are in a top guild and people don't attack you that is because of the difficulty and waste of time if they do attack you and are not prepared. Compared to PvE content where you just keep ramming against it til you beat it, find out the puzzle if its new (or just look at a guide and have it easy) and done and done. Same brain? a brain isn't a simple ai bud just because you are the same person doesn't mean you won't try new things, evolve your plan, etc. If one group does something that works and other group does the same thing that doesn't work every time I'd have to question the leadership. To continue with that notion which concerns me more then anything if you think people are simple minded and did the same thing or you did not see new things. I have to question at what stage were you playing the game if there was that lack of a challenge and was it a dead mmorpg at that time? If its dead you won't have a challenge since people aren't playing it.
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Honestly you do not understand pvp, you are trying to boil my post down to 1v1 when i was never talking about 1v1 lmao. That right there shows you don't understand the work and challenges of high end pvp that will always be more difficult then PVE encounters in a game. Ok, so, what exactly is it you consider top end PvP? You can't be talking about guild based organized PvP here, surely. If you were, you would know that guild based PvP is almost exclusively about the few people on each side that are running things going against each other, and everyone else is just a peon that is there to do what they are told (essentially). Those at the top absolutely do fit in with what I was talking about above where PvP is the same few people taking on the same few people over and over again, with little to nothing at all really changing. While I was playing Archeage, the guild I was running was facing off against the same three guilds for a year and a half. It didn't matter if it was open PvP over a mob, naval PvP for trade packs or a fishing spot, an in game event, a guild war, or a castle siege - it was always the same three other guilds - because there were only four top end guilds on the server and no one else had the balls to really attack us (that is how you know you are top end in regards to PvP - you get very little PvP). When ever we were in a situation where we were up against one of those three guilds, we always knew about what to expect, because they always had the same people leading them. That persons brain isn't going to change, and so once you understand how that brain works, you have effectively solved the PvP version of solving a PvE puzzle. The problem is, the developers aren't going to replace that brain like they do with PvE encounters. Now, I have to also assume you aren't talking about arena PvP as being top end. If you are, all you will get back from me is incessant mocking. Literally the only thing PvP could ever claim to have over PvE is that it can occasionally have some unpredictability. Arena PvP literally reduces unpredictability as much as is possible, making arena PvP the least PvP version of PvP that is available to us. This leaves open world PvP. As I said earlier, if you are being attacked in open world by random players, you are not playing top end PvP - if you were top end in regards to PvP, they would not attack you. This was literally my experience in Archeage after my guild disbanded (due to lack of content), and I moved to a new server. People would see the solo player that happened to be the only pirate on the server (as in, red to literally everyone else on the server), think that the four of them will take me on because pirate, look at the gear buff I have (when I transferred to the server, I had the best gear on the server by almost 10%) , and without fail they would just move on. Now, maybe by top end PvP you actually mean mid-range open world PvP, where people can and do attack you. If this is the case, then all I can say is that you don't know top end PvP, and are mistaking mid-range PvP for top end. You are literately talking out of your ass with 30-50 pve encounter literarily just stop lying. No game has 30-50 pve encounters that are all equally challenges and take ages to complete you only get a handful. And again once the puzzle is solved you look at a guide online follow it and have it much easier. No need to think you just follow the video. Show me where I said that all 30 - 50 encounters were equally challenging. You will not be able to find it, because I never said it, because that is not how it works. It doesn't work like that because game developers need to create content both for people that know what they are doing like me, and other people, like you. However, even easier encounters can be both interesting and enjoyable. There is no video to follow for what ashes if doing in pvp on this kind of scale with this many player period. There is no guide that will tell you how to react to everything players do and how things change in real time. Pvp isn't just limited to the giant battles, but again i need to repeat myself but making the guild, dealing with the drama, retaining your territory and players, etc. If you are playing a game where there are video guides for current content, you are paying a game with no competition. I personally don't play such games, because why would I? If you do, that's cool, you do you. However, don't make the assumption that just because videos of current content exist in the competition-less game you are playing, that they will exist in every game. Since there will be competition in Ashes, I would wager that most guilds will run a similar policy to guilds in EQ2 in relation to strategies to killing bosses. If you let out any secret, you are out of the guild. Guilds in EQ2 did this because the top end encounters in that game were open world - the first guild to kill it got the loot, everyone else misses out. Letting a guild on your server know how to kill a mob they were having trouble with would mean they would be able to get more loot faster, meaning that with the next open world boss spawn they would be in a better position to get that kill out from under you. As such, many raids from that game STILL don't have videos about them, almost two decades later. And this is a game that generally didn't even have PvP. Add PvP to that, and I see literally no reason at all why any guild in Ashes would release videos on current content.
Mag7spy wrote: » Honestly you do not understand pvp, you are trying to boil my post down to 1v1 when i was never talking about 1v1 lmao. That right there shows you don't understand the work and challenges of high end pvp that will always be more difficult then PVE encounters in a game.
You are literately talking out of your ass with 30-50 pve encounter literarily just stop lying. No game has 30-50 pve encounters that are all equally challenges and take ages to complete you only get a handful. And again once the puzzle is solved you look at a guide online follow it and have it much easier. No need to think you just follow the video.
There is no video to follow for what ashes if doing in pvp on this kind of scale with this many player period. There is no guide that will tell you how to react to everything players do and how things change in real time. Pvp isn't just limited to the giant battles, but again i need to repeat myself but making the guild, dealing with the drama, retaining your territory and players, etc.
Mag7spy wrote: » "People are predictable." You either are at such a high level on understanding people in all forms of games and to you now it is easy. Or you are talking shit. I'm going to go with the latter, people are not predictable.... if you have a raid with 250 people with all different types of classes of arch types, of positions you can go, sieges, plans, etc. You are effectively saying you can predict everything in the game with a million different scenarios.
Azherae wrote: » Do you consider the above to fall into simply 'you know his moves and how to avoid them'? I can agree that this isn't HARDER than PvP, it's very much like fighting a Red Mage in the same game, but then again, to me, Red Mages are also dynamic and can be overwhelming if they're good. I find the two to be approximately equal, the boss is just stronger and I have to keep it up for a longer time. This is a standard 'random roaming Elite' in a specific area. There are about... 400 different 'Elites' of this type.
NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Do you consider the above to fall into simply 'you know his moves and how to avoid them'? I can agree that this isn't HARDER than PvP, it's very much like fighting a Red Mage in the same game, but then again, to me, Red Mages are also dynamic and can be overwhelming if they're good. I find the two to be approximately equal, the boss is just stronger and I have to keep it up for a longer time. This is a standard 'random roaming Elite' in a specific area. There are about... 400 different 'Elites' of this type. In a 1v1 match, yeah, both the mob and the Red Mage would be less dynamic than "a party vs party" or "a party vs a ton of people" pvp. If you've killed that Elite Mob several times, you'd know roughly how to tackle its combat abilities/style. I personally wouldn't know how to deal with that exact mob just because I dunno what's my skillset in FF11, but I'd assume a high lvl player could give you a few options how to beat that mob, because they've done so a ton of times. Same applies to pvp against a singular opponent. If you know their moves, you'll know how to respond to them. And if you know that opponent's "logic", you'll have a rough idea of how they'll respond to your actions. I've experienced this in arena pvp in L2 against multiple people at higher lvls of combat ability. And the same would apply to a Boss, unless he was completely randomized or had completely random triggers (at which point I dunno if PvErs would really enjoy that type of enemy). But in owpvp, it's always randomized. Even with locations that are usually visited by the same people, you never know how many of them might come or whether a new group of people leveled up to a point where they can farm that location so it's a completely new set of "logic and class/gear". To me that owpvp is way more dynamic than fighting mobs with predetermined sets of abilities and responses, even if they are quite varied.
SirChancelot wrote: » PvP isn't hard
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » "People are predictable." You either are at such a high level on understanding people in all forms of games and to you now it is easy. Or you are talking shit. I'm going to go with the latter, people are not predictable.... if you have a raid with 250 people with all different types of classes of arch types, of positions you can go, sieges, plans, etc. You are effectively saying you can predict everything in the game with a million different scenarios. You don't have to predict all of the scenarios. You only have to predict the effective ones and just overwhelm the ineffective ones with raw skill. That's what pro gamers do all the time. "Opponent is using weak or bad strategy, I don't need to understand it, I just need to exploit it." "Opponent is using one of the strong strategies I know from my knowledge of the game, I must do these things to counter it." Is this... not how it works for you?
Okeydoke wrote: » Mag7spy, the debate tactic of deflection is being used against you lol. It is technically true that AI/Pve can be made harder than pvp. AI can be made infinitely hard. Just change a given bosses attack and defense rating from 100 to 10 trillion. Done. Hardest thing ever potentially. Even harder than colonizing Mars, or curing cancer.
Mag7spy wrote: » Honestly I can't wait to see who here is in top in guilds and how their guilds do in sieges. All these peoples saying pvp is easier then pvp better be running the highest lvl city owning it and beating everyone in pvp. I 100% will be looking at these old post for all the people that say pvp is easy lmao. Any real pvper knows the difficulties of siege and again the work that goes into having guild that can do it, maintaining the guild, maintaining the point and keeping up in gear and strategy. Like i honestly can't believe people are out like like managing 250 players and fighting 250 players is easier then following a guide and beating a boss.
NishUK wrote: » "One you solve it, it becomes easier" , no...it becomes solved. Back in the day, without Youtube having an answer for pretty much everything fairly popular, single player games and even mmo's were far more enriched due to a lack of accessible knowledge.
Constant development time focused on PvE content, especially completely new content is a full on commitment, usually at the expense of something else and I've never played EQ2/FF14/WoW (only seen) but I know for a fact none of them are fondly remembered for their (with a degree of exception of WoW back in the day) for Guild, economy, seiging and group PvP replayability
I'm asking for decent PvE content + great foundations like economy, balancing, clever events, great resource allocation, great and working node systems etc + a little bit of spice incentivizing PvP via seiges, caravans whatever. This is all mainly system fundamentals. What you're asking for is incredible PvE content, mystery and lore at plenty of turns and whatever else, probably to a decent level.
I put faith in systems, replayability, player driven content that encourages determination and excitement from doing so, otherwise I can't be arsed to look forward to another mmo again as it's not about the fucking players, it's about some god damn omega lore, raid, boss, "completion".
JustVine wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Honestly I can't wait to see who here is in top in guilds and how their guilds do in sieges. All these peoples saying pvp is easier then pvp better be running the highest lvl city owning it and beating everyone in pvp. I 100% will be looking at these old post for all the people that say pvp is easy lmao. Any real pvper knows the difficulties of siege and again the work that goes into having guild that can do it, maintaining the guild, maintaining the point and keeping up in gear and strategy. Like i honestly can't believe people are out like like managing 250 players and fighting 250 players is easier then following a guide and beating a boss. Sieges in Ashes are PvX as of last design iteration. It's a different skill set. There is a firm difference between 'being able to fight someone in a scuffle' and 'protect an objective' or even 'know which objectives to let fall so that you can succeed at more important ones given the configuration of battle.' Managing a guild successfully is a different skill set even still. The fact that you keep attributing certain things to pvp and 'pvp skill' just makes me think you haven't actually experienced it at high levels or that you are one of those oddly lucky yet ignorant people who manage to get to the top level of something without actually understanding why what you are doing works. Tank, DPS, or Support out of curiosity?
