Mag7spy wrote: » I don't see anything wrong with alts for craft, just need to make it equal work to get up there and make the good items. Create reasons why its better to interact with others over trying to do every crafting skill set yourself on alts.
Noaani wrote: » What I have noticed is that many PvP players tend to just yell out to everyone that anything they can't be bothered with is somehow cheating, or is something that should be discouraged. For some, it is using consumables. They can't be bothered buying them from other players, or making their own, so anyone that does use consumables is cheating. For others, it is using a crafting alt.
Not the topic we are talking about here.
There is already risk.
JamesSunderland wrote: » Ok, i would like you to tell me what is the risk of having a lv 1(character level) master crafter locked inside your hideout raising its crafting level and crafting your stuff.
Ferryman wrote: » Just out of curiosity... is it said that a lvl 1 character can become some sort of a master crafter?
Noaani wrote: » JamesSunderland wrote: » Ok, i would like you to tell me what is the risk of having a lv 1(character level) master crafter locked inside your hideout raising its crafting level and crafting your stuff. In this specific scenario, the exact same risk as a max level character locked inside the hideout raiding it's crafting level and crafting stuff. None. They can't be attacked. You can't attack anyone in their freehold. The problem then comes when that player does leave. Perhaps they want to level up their combat class now - but with the suggestion at debate here they would already be subject to PvP from all levels of character, rather than just those around their own combat ability. That is not an appropriate level of risk vs reward for this character, nor for the player attacking them. The idea just doesn't hold up to even a few seconds of rational thought.
Noaani wrote: » Ferryman wrote: » Just out of curiosity... is it said that a lvl 1 character can become some sort of a master crafter? the closest thing they have said is that profession level is distinct from your combat level. However, since a level 1 character is not going to have access to all recipes, they are inherently limited.
JamesSunderland wrote: » The problem is, the player can simple chose to not leave.
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » I don't see anything wrong with alts for craft, just need to make it equal work to get up there and make the good items. Create reasons why its better to interact with others over trying to do every crafting skill set yourself on alts. Indeed. Crafting alts are good - up to a point (which is limited by character slots and the time it takes to master professions). However, for crafting alts to exist, they need to maintain the acquiring of corruption to be based on combat level only.
Noaani wrote: » JamesSunderland wrote: » The problem is, the player can simple chose to not leave. Yeah, they could. The thing is, your suggestion won't affect people that make this decision at all, ever. If they don't leave their freehold, you can literally never attack them.
JamesSunderland wrote: » Which can certainly still be put inside the safe freehold to craft their stuff without risk, but atleast they had the risk of the journey to reach max character level.
Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » I don't see anything wrong with alts for craft, just need to make it equal work to get up there and make the good items. Create reasons why its better to interact with others over trying to do every crafting skill set yourself on alts. Indeed. Crafting alts are good - up to a point (which is limited by character slots and the time it takes to master professions). However, for crafting alts to exist, they need to maintain the acquiring of corruption to be based on combat level only. That is fine, you just put level requirements on being able to collect / hold higher level items so people aren't bringing dummy bag holding alts.
Noaani wrote: » JamesSunderland wrote: » Which can certainly still be put inside the safe freehold to craft their stuff without risk, but atleast they had the risk of the journey to reach max character level. So, what you are actually saying is that you don't care if people can sit in their freehold and craft all day (because you now realize that your suggestion simply can't prevent that), you now just want there to be more work involved in getting there.
JamesSunderland wrote: » Nope, its just that the first suggestion(when talking with Dolyem about low level gathering bots/alts) doesn't deal with this very specific situation of a lv 1 crafter alt crafting inside your main freehold without a single risk from its very creation have all the advantage a maximum level crafter can provide.
Noaani wrote: » \ Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » I don't see anything wrong with alts for craft, just need to make it equal work to get up there and make the good items. Create reasons why its better to interact with others over trying to do every crafting skill set yourself on alts. Indeed. Crafting alts are good - up to a point (which is limited by character slots and the time it takes to master professions). However, for crafting alts to exist, they need to maintain the acquiring of corruption to be based on combat level only. That is fine, you just put level requirements on being able to collect / hold higher level items so people aren't bringing dummy bag holding alts. I'm not a fan of this. If you level up a profession, and you gather the materials, you should be able to make the item. Artificial limits like this are just an unnecessary hindrance.
Mag7spy wrote: » If the material you are trying to gather is in a high level area, its highly unlikely you would be able to gather it without dying.
Noaani wrote: » Leveling up a combat class gives you all the benefits of having a leveled up combat class.
Leveling up a crafting class gives you all the benefits of having leveled up a crafting class.
If they level up a crafting class without combat on that character, they are still at risk of being killed in combat by another character that is the same combat level as them. That is an appropriate risk. Putting a level 1 character at risk of PvP vs a level 50 character is not an appropriate risk vs reward situation. The notion of sitting in a freehold is a non-factor in this discussion, as it applies to all characters.
NiKr wrote: » The only difference between L2's karma system and AoC's corruption system is the resources that drop on death. Yes, there's also the stat dampening for Red players, but that's a change for such extreme cases that we can disregard that for now.
We've yet to see exactly how much stuff we drop on death, so it's difficult to say how much desire there'll be in people to kill another player for their resources (and that's even considering that you'd know which resources that target even has).
From what I've seen from pvp-dislikers and alleged casuals, their main problem is that they'll get attacked out of nowhere for no apparent reason while they're just chilling and doing their thing. From all my experience in L2, that would happen maaaaybe once a week and that's only if you came across some PK-lover who's just going around harassing people (any pvpers hate them too and love to hunt them asap).
Now what should be added to that experience is that L2 had several "people funnels" that always pushed players of a similar lvl together to create that good ol' soft friction that Steven likes to mention. And the higher your lvl was, the fewer funnels there'd be (but they'd be all-encompassing), so at top lvls your usual day in L2 would be spent in maybe 2-3 locations and that IF you wanted to farm different things that day. Within that funnel you'd have even more "sub-funnels" based on the lvl of mobs and their drops. So within those limited high lvl locations you'd have a limited amount of rooms to farm.
And in the context of all of that, most (if not all) people completely understood the concept of "I gotta fight for my right to party farm". If someone attacked you while you were farming those rooms - that wasn't "out of nowhere" and it wasn't "for no reason". You knew exactly why they did so and you usually were prepared for it (held the camera pointed at the entrance to your dungeon room). And you'd usually do the same to the person who was farming that room before you.
This was the social contract of the game and the flagging system supported it. While you were farming, you'd see a dude stand at the entrance to your room (if camera angles allowed, he'd probably be standing just outside around the corner looking in). He'd watch you farm the mobs to see how strong you are. If you were strong, there'd be a chance he'll just move along to check out other room. If you were slow and weak, he might just start pulling mobs himself and start killing them way faster than you, non-verbally telling you "this is my room now because I can farm it better". In the case of the latter, you might try attacking him to show him that your pvp is stronger than your pve (I've seen such cases before). If you do in fact win in pvp, there's a chance that he comes back to fight you again, if the fight was really tight and equal (especially if you attacked him while he was fighting mobs). Run-back time could range from just seconds to a minute or two, depending on how deep you were in the dungeon (L2 had a TP system), which allowed you to prepare for his return and maybe have a better rotation for the fight (he would have it too). If you won again, quite a lot of people would just change rooms at this point because in their eyes you earned your farm of that room. And due to how dungeons were designed, the run-back (or just getting deeper into the dungeon) would have you pass other lower lvled rooms with people farming them, which usually would dissuade people from PKing, because they knew that there were people (even if they were low lvl) who'd immediately run to kill you for some potential juicy lot. That was the case because a shout in chat would usually cover the whole dungeon's area (sometimes even more), so just yellng "hey peeps, there's a PK in such and such room - go kill 'em, they're low on hp" would usually not only provide a swift revenge, but would even have a chance of someone resurrecting you after they've dealt with the PKer (done so myself a ton of times).
Now all of that is just an example of how the social side of the flagging system worked. Unless we literally drop 50% of our resources on death in Ashes, I highly doubt the contract would be too different from the one in L2, so I truly believe that people are way too scared of the system that they've never experienced before.
Now the main exception to this line of thinking is L2's guild wars and what I believe AoC's equivalent of them to be - node wars. My example from L2 mainly worked for party gameplay, because most dungeons in L2 required you to be in a party (or at least with a full stack of support chars). Anything soloable was the land of the casuals that rarely had pvp, outside of low lvl guild war squabbles. And those squabbles were the main hardcore part of the whole pvp system. Being in a guild that was at war could be very taxing and difficult for the unprepared. Most locations would have at least a few players from the warring guild (especially if you were at war with a big guild or against several guilds), who'd have complete ffa PKing rights against you. You afked for one minute to get some tea? You might come back to a dead character with the chat log reading "so and so dealt 10 hits of this much damage to you"(with that player being from a warring guild). You were peacefully farming a lower lvled room in some dungeon? The high lvl warring dudes would kill you on their way deeper into the dungeon just cause you were at war with them. I'm assuming this is the experience of most WoW players or really any other faction-based mmo players, because that's usually the case in faction-based mmos, where people have full PKing rights for their enemies. Now what made L2 better than all those faction-based shitholes is that you could leave your guild at any time. Most reasonable GLs would be fine with you leaving for a while to get stronger, and quite a lot of them would just have a second guild for all the players who wanted to still stay in touch, but didn't want to suffer the war difficulties.
Now, AoC's guild wars will be way more goal-based in the design, as opposed to a just "we're at war until someone exits it like a pussy or until we have a bigger enemy to kill together"-type of deal from L2. And iirc Ashes guild wars will be more of an evening event than endless slaughter of your enemies. But Node Wars, from what I've read, seem like the exact copy of L2's guild wars. The mayor declares war on another node and both sides' citizens have a ffa fight through the duration of the war.
The main problem I see with that system is that changing a Node is not as easy as changing a guild in L2 was, so most casuals who live in a Node at war would probably have a bad time. And I think that this feature will have to be tested even more than the Corruption system to truly know what a casual's day in the game would look like and how scary would any prospect of pvp be for them. TL;DR we've seen this flagging system function just fine before, so I really don't think it's as spooky as some people make it out to be.
JamesSunderland wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Leveling up a combat class gives you all the benefits of having a leveled up combat class. This one requires going out there in the world and facing the risks of the owPvP. Leveling up a crafting class gives you all the benefits of having leveled up a crafting class. This one doesn't.
