I don't like action combat, and it could very potentially stop me from playing

I haven't played it yet, so I'm not drawing any sort of line yet. But steven asked for feedback about if we are going in a positive direction, and I'm just gonna say that every action combat korean type mmo I've ever played I have absolutely hated. I am tab target 100%, I think action combat only works from an overhead 3rd person perspective like diablo or league of legends or lost ark. I don't want to aim my ability's honestly, If I use a sword and get animation locked, and at the same time I'm required to dodge some kind of skill shot. I'm not gonna be happy. If I miss a spell as a spell caster because my mouse was 4 pixels off, same thing. Tab targeting let's me focus on what I think matters.

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Dygz

That's not really false.
Language is not always literal - and also meaning drifts over time.
Denotation v connotation.

Tab Target is more than just the targeting system.

Solvryn

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

You are missing the point, depending on how an encounter is designed you can vary the level of need to dodge a enemy based on what you want.

So, in order to make action combat work on encounters that would be natural to tab combat, you need to strip away that action combat. Then, you can approach what tab target can do naturally.

Encounters can be adjusted through AIs design to make tab “feel” more natural.

The reality is tab feels more natural to some, tab to others.

It’s a pure emotional argument.

Zaviorn

I prefer tab, but I'm always willing to try something new. If I don't like it, I'll play something else, even thought I've followed the development of this game for years.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

That seems to get quite high when movement is actually required.

Looks close to 90-100 base though? Which implies it rises by the standard... 20ish when in an area when you have to look out for enemies? (Is it 20ish for everyone else? Camera spins and other checks? I think I'm pretty bad at this because I'm not good at shooters, for example)

Yeah, especially on this class, cause it has 2 blinks so overall mobility is super high (there's a movement speed buff too). And it has an anchor aoe with a short radius around the character, so you always try to look for high value targets to jump on and try anchoring them (anchor is a stun in L2, so it's a very powerful skill), but the class itself is fairly squishy so you want to keep distance from burst characters, so you're constantly moving, constantly spinning your camera to know your surroundings and second-to-second enemy movements/positioning, on top of using all those abilities (cause there's utility and dps in there) - all of that shoots your apm by a ton in bigger fights.

And all of that is usually happening very quickly because ttk is quite short (this video showed overboosted chars with full buffs and just 1v1, so it was quite slow comparatively).

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

You are still missing the point its about creating the level of difficulty. The same way adding more advanced mech make thing difficult, so does adding more movement skills.

But this isn't unique to action combat.

Tab target games also require players to avoid attacks.

I mean, you can't say "this specific thing is what makes action better than tab" if that thing is in both action and tab. That is what you are doing.

Same with just general movement. One encounter that jumps out to me had sections of the floor falling every few seconds, requiring players to take note of the ground around them, and reposition themselves often.

This is my point though, all of these things can be ADDED to an encounter that ADD to tab target. In order to have that much on an encounter in an action game, the developers first need to REMOVE something from the action combat - and players generally don't like it when developers take things away from them.

Noaani

Solvryn wrote: »

Tab generally refers to the target system

Tab target in isolation refers to the targeting system. Tab vs aimed.

When the discussion is tab target vs action combat though, it is a broader discussion than just the aiming. It encapsulates the entire combat system and the differences that are generally associated with each.

Paradras

As much as i'm big a fan of Action combat, i really have nothing against tab target, Wow combat is an example, they have tap target but most of classes they have AOE as well.
I think Tab target is a bad idea for an open world mmo, cause of the aggro, you ll always have to slow down and not take risks, and usually tab traget combat is more efficient for long range classes,
I d suggest that you keep yourself updated and let s wait and see how AOC is going to pull it off, i hope the game can be a fit for everyone, to me personally i m a fan of the project, and whatever course they choose from now on, i'd still play the game, i 'd even enjoy it even more if they go the direction of Action combat. cause literally there is no really other good mmo that i can invest my time in. Cheers

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

You are still missing the point its about creating the level of difficulty. The same way adding more advanced mech make thing difficult, so does adding more movement skills.

But this isn't unique to action combat.

Tab target games also require players to avoid attacks.

I mean, you can't say "this specific thing is what makes action better than tab" if that thing is in both action and tab. That is what you are doing.

Same with just general movement. One encounter that jumps out to me had sections of the floor falling every few seconds, requiring players to take note of the ground around them, and reposition themselves often.

This is my point though, all of these things can be ADDED to an encounter that ADD to tab target. In order to have that much on an encounter in an action game, the developers first need to REMOVE something from the action combat - and players generally don't like it when developers take things away from them.

If we look at a tab target game and look at any mmo that has action movements in it we would be able to easily see a pretty big difference between tab target dodging and action based dodging.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

If we look at a tab target game and look at any mmo that has action movements in it we would be able to easily see a pretty big difference between tab target dodging and action based dodging.

Yeah, but the difference is animation, not player interaction.

In terms of player interaction (perceiving an attack, then activating a defense), they are virtually identical.

If you think there is a big difference, then I am wondering if all you are really talking about is the visuals of the game, and not the actual mechanics and player interaction. This is a very common thing for people to do - people often even complain that a class or ability isn't balanced properly, when all they mean is that the ability doesn't look and/or feel impactful enough for them - the actual balance is often fine (Margret commented about exactly this on a stream a while ago).

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

If we look at a tab target game and look at any mmo that has action movements in it we would be able to easily see a pretty big difference between tab target dodging and action based dodging.

Yeah, but the difference is animation, not player interaction.

In terms of player interaction (perceiving an attack, then activating a defense), they are virtually identical.

If you think there is a big difference, then I am wondering if all you are really talking about is the visuals of the game, and not the actual mechanics and player interaction. This is a very common thing for people to do - people often even complain that a class or ability isn't balanced properly, when all they mean is that the ability doesn't look and/or feel impactful enough for them - the actual balance is often fine (Margret commented about exactly this on a stream a while ago).

Honestly feel we are just going to go back and forth on this, I can show example but I see no example on dodging given to me in any tab target mmos with dodging / mobility skills. You couldn't even dodge in city of heroes with super jump since tab target everything is locking onto you by default and hitting you still.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Honestly feel we are just going to go back and forth on this, I can show example but I see no example on dodging given to me in any tab target mmos with dodging / mobility skills. You couldn't even dodge in city of heroes with super jump since tab target everything is locking onto you by default and hitting you still.

As I said, this is because such abilities in tab target games are not inherently tied to movement. They are abilities that you activate that have the EFFECT of dodging an attack.

That said, some do have a movement component as well, but if you don't know the combat system, you won't know what you are looking at (one of the other reasons I don't bother linking video clips of any games). Additionally, some abilities move your character, but don't have a dodging effect on incoming attacks.

Basically, whether an attack hits or misses in a tab target game is not tied to character movement. The only thing character movement means is where your character is. This is why these games have abilities that you can activate that provide the same effect as dodge (making the pending attack miss).

This is also why tab target games are better than action for large scale. The classes that would expect to be tanking top end raid content have dodge abilities that don't move the character - and thus don't move the mob. Characters that are not expected to have this may have a dodge that moves the character around a bit (if it is suited to the class - dodge in a tab target game is not an inherent thing to all classes).

If what you are looking for in a dodge is character movement, then yeah, you are on the wrong page.

Mag7spy

Just to make this short form, your comment on abilities causing miss can be applied to action as a buff the same way as tab target.

Second tab target is not better for large scale, you can use buffs as well in action as a tank. And you don't use your movement skill to have the boss hitting people, the same way you wouldn't taunt and turn he boss around to face the dps hitting it behind.

I don't understand how you don't see thing as being a thing with action, and why you think just because there is action combat you need to dodge around everywhere? You simply dodge when you need to, if you are not in a position where you need to dodge you don't dodge.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Just to make this short form, your comment on abilities causing miss can be applied to action as a buff the same way as tab target.

Yeah, it could - but that's MY point.

It is in both games, and as such YOU should not be using it as a "action combat is better because dodge" as you have been doing.

It is in both types of games already.

Mag7spy wrote: »

Second tab target is not better for large scale, you can use buffs as well in action as a tank. And you don't use your movement skill to have the boss hitting people, the same way you wouldn't taunt and turn he boss around to face the dps hitting it behind.

Are you not noticing a pattern here?

Every time you say "but action is able to do that thing that tab can do, all you need to do is NOT have this part of action combat".

Again, this is MY point. In order for action to be able to be used in the type and variety of content that a top end player would expect, you have to strip out components of that action combat system to make it work. Stripping things out for top end content is counter-productive.

If you are having to strip down an action combat system, what you are then left with is a lesser combat system than a fully fledged tab target combat system.

ashesplayer123

FYI

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Just to make this short form, your comment on abilities causing miss can be applied to action as a buff the same way as tab target.

Yeah, it could - but that's MY point.

It is in both games, and as such YOU should not be using it as a "action combat is better because dodge" as you have been doing.

It is in both types of games already.

Mag7spy wrote: »

Second tab target is not better for large scale, you can use buffs as well in action as a tank. And you don't use your movement skill to have the boss hitting people, the same way you wouldn't taunt and turn he boss around to face the dps hitting it behind.

Are you not noticing a pattern here?

Every time you say "but action is able to do that thing that tab can do, all you need to do is NOT have this part of action combat".

Again, this is MY point. In order for action to be able to be used in the type and variety of content that a top end player would expect, you have to strip out components of that action combat system to make it work. Stripping things out for top end content is counter-productive.

If you are having to strip down an action combat system, what you are then left with is a lesser combat system than a fully fledged tab target combat system.

Yes action combat is better it has more layers to it, my point is you bring up you can use skills in tab, my point is you can do skills and more in action. More variety of content and challenging is better period. Pressing a buff skill is not engaging....

You are failing to notice the pattern because you are stuck in thinking then its fine if its tab if it doesn't have action elements.....The reason why I'm making comparison that action can do the same thing is because you think action can't do it. I'm making a point action and do any element of pve content. You haven't realized you are actually agreeing action can do it....

You keep bringing up stripping its like you have not been listening to my points about the conversation. I strip it down for you to show action can do anything. And I continue to mention devs can add action elements on top of it based on the difficult and mechs they want to add for variation....

You don't have a lesser combat system, that is not how action combat works. You use your skill and target the enemy, your skills aren't hit scan, their is more hand eye coordination involved in a fight. Again not every fight needs to be dodging all over the place, that isn't the point of action combat. You can have a battle when you are simply attacking a boss, moving around and using your skills and it is a complete fine and fun experience as the combat feels good. You aren't standing still like tab target with your skills all perfectly hitting the enemy and just cycling your moves. There is some motion of aim to hit your target that can be easy or difficult based on the intended design.

Tab target is a relic of the past, exactly why games are moving towards either action or hybrid. If you throw pantheon gameplay which is purely tab target and throw ashes up against it 9.99 out of 10 people will say Ashes looks better and pantheon looks boring.

Again Its not even stripping away elements it up to the devs to craft the experience and difficulty they want, with action it allows for more versatility and difficulty than tab target could ever offer.

Ottobot

Tab is boring and for lazy gamers. Get with the times people.

Noaani

Ottobot wrote: »

Tab is boring and for lazy gamers. Get with the times people.

Action is for gamers that are too lazy to get good at a game and get to where tab shines.

aphorizem

Ottobot wrote: »

Tab is boring and for lazy gamers. Get with the times people.

How am I going to eat my party size bag of Dorritos and my large Meatzza Dominos pizza and sip on my 2 liter of Mountain Dew while I play if it isn't tab?

ashesplayer123

this dumb action vs tab fight some of you participate in is absolutely useless. the game will be hybrid, it's one of the core pillars of the game. you're arguing about something that will NOT change.

it's hybrid, it will have both action combat and tab targeting. move on.

Mag7spy

JHWRD wrote: »

Ottobot wrote: »

Tab is boring and for lazy gamers. Get with the times people.

How am I going to eat my party size bag of Dorritos and my large Meatzza Dominos pizza and sip on my 2 liter of Mountain Dew while I play if it isn't tab?

True benefit of tab target right there haha

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