NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Again tab target is old and out dated there is nothing special about it, it's for slow paced gameplay. Did you by chance check out the L2 video I posted for Azherae? It was quite fast. And that was just 1v1 pvp, which is fairly slower than mass pvp, so that's not the limit on tab target mmo speed. And you could get even faster if you wanted to really push the player's reaction speeds. Not all tab mmos have 10-year-long gcds that slow down combat to a fucking crawl.
Mag7spy wrote: » Again tab target is old and out dated there is nothing special about it, it's for slow paced gameplay.
Mag7spy wrote: » If you look back to very old mmorpgs L2, everquest and shadowbane there is actually a pattern overtime of more action elements even if some of them are faked being added to mmorpgs. Its why combat has felt better overtime with tab target, but they pretty much are at the peak at what they can do and next step is hybrid.
Noaani wrote: » Ottobot wrote: » These people can't give examples because they don't know anything about action combat, or refuse to admit they want to play a low skill ceiling game. Actually, the reason *I* wont give examples is because all action combat people want are videos. This tells me they are only concerned with how it looks, not how it plays. An action combat player, based on my conversations with them over the last few months (as well as playing BDO for a while) would rather a game with a single button press causing your character to back flip over the opponent, backstab them with a dagger, combat roll back between their legs, use their dagger to pin one of the opponents feet to the ground, strafe to the right while pulling out a sword, perform a 520 degree spin while chopping off the opponents head. Throw in some particle effects, camera shakes, and a weapon trail on the sword, and you'll have action combat players salivating. A tab target player will look at that and be like - I only pressed one button... While the above is obviously a slight exaggeration, it is only slight. Action combat players consider character fluidity and animation to be combat depth. Tab target players consider player interaction to be combat depth. Since a video simply can not convey the interaction a player has with the character, why would anyone bother linking on if they are talking about player interaction?
Ottobot wrote: » These people can't give examples because they don't know anything about action combat, or refuse to admit they want to play a low skill ceiling game.
Solvryn wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Ottobot wrote: » These people can't give examples because they don't know anything about action combat, or refuse to admit they want to play a low skill ceiling game. Actually, the reason *I* wont give examples is because all action combat people want are videos. This tells me they are only concerned with how it looks, not how it plays. An action combat player, based on my conversations with them over the last few months (as well as playing BDO for a while) would rather a game with a single button press causing your character to back flip over the opponent, backstab them with a dagger, combat roll back between their legs, use their dagger to pin one of the opponents feet to the ground, strafe to the right while pulling out a sword, perform a 520 degree spin while chopping off the opponents head. Throw in some particle effects, camera shakes, and a weapon trail on the sword, and you'll have action combat players salivating. A tab target player will look at that and be like - I only pressed one button... While the above is obviously a slight exaggeration, it is only slight. Action combat players consider character fluidity and animation to be combat depth. Tab target players consider player interaction to be combat depth. Since a video simply can not convey the interaction a player has with the character, why would anyone bother linking on if they are talking about player interaction? I’ve played both action and tab at high levels. Asherons Call, Asherons Call 2, Shadowbane, WoW, SWTOR, Darkfall, Darkfall Unholy Wars, ESO, TERA, GW, GW2, FF14, AION, Rift, ArcheAge, Dragons Prophet, New World, Conquerors Blade.. Im still trying to figure out where you derive your opinions from in regards to combat depth because it must be something I haven’t played. I’ve never seen an action combat game where you can one button fits all someone. But I *can* one button macro a good portion of the tab games I can much more effectively than the combat games I’ve played. So I’d like to know which games you consider good combat depth.
Mag7spy wrote: » Solvryn wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Ottobot wrote: » These people can't give examples because they don't know anything about action combat, or refuse to admit they want to play a low skill ceiling game. Actually, the reason *I* wont give examples is because all action combat people want are videos. This tells me they are only concerned with how it looks, not how it plays. An action combat player, based on my conversations with them over the last few months (as well as playing BDO for a while) would rather a game with a single button press causing your character to back flip over the opponent, backstab them with a dagger, combat roll back between their legs, use their dagger to pin one of the opponents feet to the ground, strafe to the right while pulling out a sword, perform a 520 degree spin while chopping off the opponents head. Throw in some particle effects, camera shakes, and a weapon trail on the sword, and you'll have action combat players salivating. A tab target player will look at that and be like - I only pressed one button... While the above is obviously a slight exaggeration, it is only slight. Action combat players consider character fluidity and animation to be combat depth. Tab target players consider player interaction to be combat depth. Since a video simply can not convey the interaction a player has with the character, why would anyone bother linking on if they are talking about player interaction? I’ve played both action and tab at high levels. Asherons Call, Asherons Call 2, Shadowbane, WoW, SWTOR, Darkfall, Darkfall Unholy Wars, ESO, TERA, GW, GW2, FF14, AION, Rift, ArcheAge, Dragons Prophet, New World, Conquerors Blade.. Im still trying to figure out where you derive your opinions from in regards to combat depth because it must be something I haven’t played. I’ve never seen an action combat game where you can one button fits all someone. But I *can* one button macro a good portion of the tab games I can much more effectively than the combat games I’ve played. So I’d like to know which games you consider good combat depth. Shadowbane brother here lmao
Mag7spy wrote: » I've played more mmorpgs then you btw.
Solvryn wrote: » So I’d like to know which games you consider good combat depth.
Noaani wrote: » Solvryn wrote: » So I’d like to know which games you consider good combat depth. EQ2. If we are going to talk about macro'ing, you can macro an action game just as easily as a tab target game. What you cant macro is PvP - which action games tend to have more than tab games. This seems like an odd line for you to take, and you'll note that I specifically said an action game player would like a skill like that, not that action games have them.
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » I've played more mmorpgs then you btw. See, this is just a sterotypical example if your bullshit. You literally have no way of knowing which MMO's I have and have not played, yet you claim to know. You say you know how tab target works, yet you said you ait there waiting for an ability to be ready to cast. Since this is wrong on two points (you would cast something else,and skill queues exist) you CLEARLY do not know how tab target games work. You can try and bullshit all you want,but you have been called out. You keep asking for "examoles",but if you knew tab target games well, you would know there is no point in even asking for them. They dont forward the discussion at all. All they do is waste my time - which is why I almost never even bother with wiki links to back points up.
Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » I've played more mmorpgs then you btw. See, this is just a sterotypical example if your bullshit. You literally have no way of knowing which MMO's I have and have not played, yet you claim to know. You say you know how tab target works, yet you said you ait there waiting for an ability to be ready to cast. Since this is wrong on two points (you would cast something else,and skill queues exist) you CLEARLY do not know how tab target games work. You can try and bullshit all you want,but you have been called out. You keep asking for "examoles",but if you knew tab target games well, you would know there is no point in even asking for them. They dont forward the discussion at all. All they do is waste my time - which is why I almost never even bother with wiki links to back points up. If you save Action can't do tab target large scale well. you need to give an example not just say that because you think its the case. You are trying to cop out pretty much by not talking about the content. Already know about skill ques you are missing the point, its not about ques its about slow combat. Within that time frame you have little or nothing you can do as you wait for next skill to go off. Ability que doesn't mean anything (doesn't take much thinking to do the skill rotation you normally do on content), doesn't change the fact there is no action in that time as its meant to slow down the pace of combat as well for technical reason. You are trying to make a big deal out of tab target, when a lot of those points are not a big deal. Tab / select your target, combat is simply use your skill be it dps, utility, healing. You have nothing else to worry about as when you click your abiltiy it works. You don't need to worry about position for the ability, aim, etc. You use your skill and you can have your next skill qued very easily. For combat that sums it up, its nothing spectacular its a simply system and there is no reason action combat can't be superior to it as long as it is designed well. The combat is more engaging, hand eye coordination is needed on some level and you are fighting in a more immersive experience. Me being called out? I can talk about all my experiences in mmorpgs I've played plenty of tab mmorpgs to understand the simplicity behind it. And when i say simplicity I'm not talking about making builds, mechs involved in skills and all the great fun stuff. I'm talking about the core of the actual combat. You click a button use your skill, que your next and use your skill. There is nothing about it that makes it difficult it doesn't require any skill all your abilities will hit the target without any of your own effort, half the time yo don't even need to be looking at your target you just need line of sight between characters regardless of your camera facing direction. Tab target - Click a skill, don't even need to have the camera facing the direction or being paying attention to the screen and your character uses the skill and always hits the target. Action - Must be moving to the target yourself, making sure you are in a good position and attacking it and landing your attack. ^ actual difference between the two at its core and nothing game breaking its simply more engaging. So again there is no reason why action combat can't do large man raids and also make it a more fun experience.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » I've played more mmorpgs then you btw. See, this is just a sterotypical example if your bullshit. You literally have no way of knowing which MMO's I have and have not played, yet you claim to know. You say you know how tab target works, yet you said you ait there waiting for an ability to be ready to cast. Since this is wrong on two points (you would cast something else,and skill queues exist) you CLEARLY do not know how tab target games work. You can try and bullshit all you want,but you have been called out. You keep asking for "examoles",but if you knew tab target games well, you would know there is no point in even asking for them. They dont forward the discussion at all. All they do is waste my time - which is why I almost never even bother with wiki links to back points up. If you save Action can't do tab target large scale well. you need to give an example not just say that because you think its the case. You are trying to cop out pretty much by not talking about the content. Already know about skill ques you are missing the point, its not about ques its about slow combat. Within that time frame you have little or nothing you can do as you wait for next skill to go off. Ability que doesn't mean anything (doesn't take much thinking to do the skill rotation you normally do on content), doesn't change the fact there is no action in that time as its meant to slow down the pace of combat as well for technical reason. You are trying to make a big deal out of tab target, when a lot of those points are not a big deal. Tab / select your target, combat is simply use your skill be it dps, utility, healing. You have nothing else to worry about as when you click your abiltiy it works. You don't need to worry about position for the ability, aim, etc. You use your skill and you can have your next skill qued very easily. For combat that sums it up, its nothing spectacular its a simply system and there is no reason action combat can't be superior to it as long as it is designed well. The combat is more engaging, hand eye coordination is needed on some level and you are fighting in a more immersive experience. Me being called out? I can talk about all my experiences in mmorpgs I've played plenty of tab mmorpgs to understand the simplicity behind it. And when i say simplicity I'm not talking about making builds, mechs involved in skills and all the great fun stuff. I'm talking about the core of the actual combat. You click a button use your skill, que your next and use your skill. There is nothing about it that makes it difficult it doesn't require any skill all your abilities will hit the target without any of your own effort, half the time yo don't even need to be looking at your target you just need line of sight between characters regardless of your camera facing direction. Tab target - Click a skill, don't even need to have the camera facing the direction or being paying attention to the screen and your character uses the skill and always hits the target. Action - Must be moving to the target yourself, making sure you are in a good position and attacking it and landing your attack. ^ actual difference between the two at its core and nothing game breaking its simply more engaging. So again there is no reason why action combat can't do large man raids and also make it a more fun experience. I've just realized what we should really be saying to you... According to your own definition, there are nearly no Tab Target games. EQ2 and Lineage 2 are clearly Action Combat, so there's nothing to really be discussing here. By your definition, all those great games with good PvE are already Action Combat games and we just have to wait for Intrepid to make another Action Combat game just like them.
Mag7spy wrote: » Lets look at some gameplay between everquest 2 and neverwinter online with 2 raids.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP1nFAQSimQ&t=884shttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am3vWwKaL7Y Both using the trinity system so you have dps, tanks an healers all that good stuff. People don't need to be running everywhere, but being completely static with all your stuff landing without any skill involved is less engaging. If I'm looking at both games in term of content imo I feel most people would enjoy neverwinter online. Purely action based and doing a raid and not everyone needs to be moving around all over the place every second. But its like I said its action layered on top adding a bit more diversity and of course needing to aim your shots (not that they need to make it that hard)
Dygz wrote: » I prefer NWO Action Combat more than EQ2 combat, but... I dunno how you measure who likes what more. Links to some actual data??
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Lets look at some gameplay between everquest 2 and neverwinter online with 2 raids.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP1nFAQSimQ&t=884shttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am3vWwKaL7Y Both using the trinity system so you have dps, tanks an healers all that good stuff. People don't need to be running everywhere, but being completely static with all your stuff landing without any skill involved is less engaging. If I'm looking at both games in term of content imo I feel most people would enjoy neverwinter online. Purely action based and doing a raid and not everyone needs to be moving around all over the place every second. But its like I said its action layered on top adding a bit more diversity and of course needing to aim your shots (not that they need to make it that hard) Ok great. Since we already know from the last stream that it will be more like NWO, and you've already clarified that it actually doesn't matter that much if some classes don't move around that much during big fights, it seems like Intrepid is on the right track and we can all hope for a really great Action Combat game. As long as players: 1. Have to dodge certain boss mechanics by moving. 2. Have to be in the correct range for some abilities and aiming/facing the enemy to correctly use it. 3. Have to pay attention to their spacing for certain abilities or the enemy may dodge them as part of a normal flow. We will have good Action Combat, and we already know and have experienced all those things in Ashes even on the less powerful encounters. We shouldn't be concerned about if any given player needs to move around so much, as you said, but rather if the core concept of Action Combat is maintained. Core concepts that most games, even if they offer Tab Targeting, do also have. I'm sure you've played multiple games that don't have those concepts, but I don't think anyone's been actually talking much about any of those games.
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » I've played more mmorpgs then you btw. See, this is just a sterotypical example if your bullshit. You literally have no way of knowing which MMO's I have and have not played, yet you claim to know. You say you know how tab target works, yet you said you ait there waiting for an ability to be ready to cast. Since this is wrong on two points (you would cast something else,and skill queues exist) you CLEARLY do not know how tab target games work. You can try and bullshit all you want,but you have been called out. You keep asking for "examoles",but if you knew tab target games well, you would know there is no point in even asking for them. They dont forward the discussion at all. All they do is waste my time - which is why I almost never even bother with wiki links to back points up. If you save Action can't do tab target large scale well. you need to give an example not just say that because you think its the case. You are trying to cop out pretty much by not talking about the content. Already know about skill ques you are missing the point, its not about ques its about slow combat. Within that time frame you have little or nothing you can do as you wait for next skill to go off. Ability que doesn't mean anything (doesn't take much thinking to do the skill rotation you normally do on content), doesn't change the fact there is no action in that time as its meant to slow down the pace of combat as well for technical reason. You are trying to make a big deal out of tab target, when a lot of those points are not a big deal. Tab / select your target, combat is simply use your skill be it dps, utility, healing. You have nothing else to worry about as when you click your abiltiy it works. You don't need to worry about position for the ability, aim, etc. You use your skill and you can have your next skill qued very easily. For combat that sums it up, its nothing spectacular its a simply system and there is no reason action combat can't be superior to it as long as it is designed well. The combat is more engaging, hand eye coordination is needed on some level and you are fighting in a more immersive experience. Me being called out? I can talk about all my experiences in mmorpgs I've played plenty of tab mmorpgs to understand the simplicity behind it. And when i say simplicity I'm not talking about making builds, mechs involved in skills and all the great fun stuff. I'm talking about the core of the actual combat. You click a button use your skill, que your next and use your skill. There is nothing about it that makes it difficult it doesn't require any skill all your abilities will hit the target without any of your own effort, half the time yo don't even need to be looking at your target you just need line of sight between characters regardless of your camera facing direction. Tab target - Click a skill, don't even need to have the camera facing the direction or being paying attention to the screen and your character uses the skill and always hits the target. Action - Must be moving to the target yourself, making sure you are in a good position and attacking it and landing your attack. ^ actual difference between the two at its core and nothing game breaking its simply more engaging. So again there is no reason why action combat can't do large man raids and also make it a more fun experience. I've just realized what we should really be saying to you... According to your own definition, there are nearly no Tab Target games. EQ2 and Lineage 2 are clearly Action Combat, so there's nothing to really be discussing here. By your definition, all those great games with good PvE are already Action Combat games and we just have to wait for Intrepid to make another Action Combat game just like them. EQ 2 and L2 are tab target games what are you talking about. If you are talking about my comment earlier I said the trend is leading to action / hybrid but some elemetns added or faked slightly. Example aoe in front over needing to have a mob targeted in swtor.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » I've played more mmorpgs then you btw. See, this is just a sterotypical example if your bullshit. You literally have no way of knowing which MMO's I have and have not played, yet you claim to know. You say you know how tab target works, yet you said you ait there waiting for an ability to be ready to cast. Since this is wrong on two points (you would cast something else,and skill queues exist) you CLEARLY do not know how tab target games work. You can try and bullshit all you want,but you have been called out. You keep asking for "examoles",but if you knew tab target games well, you would know there is no point in even asking for them. They dont forward the discussion at all. All they do is waste my time - which is why I almost never even bother with wiki links to back points up. If you save Action can't do tab target large scale well. you need to give an example not just say that because you think its the case. You are trying to cop out pretty much by not talking about the content. Already know about skill ques you are missing the point, its not about ques its about slow combat. Within that time frame you have little or nothing you can do as you wait for next skill to go off. Ability que doesn't mean anything (doesn't take much thinking to do the skill rotation you normally do on content), doesn't change the fact there is no action in that time as its meant to slow down the pace of combat as well for technical reason. You are trying to make a big deal out of tab target, when a lot of those points are not a big deal. Tab / select your target, combat is simply use your skill be it dps, utility, healing. You have nothing else to worry about as when you click your abiltiy it works. You don't need to worry about position for the ability, aim, etc. You use your skill and you can have your next skill qued very easily. For combat that sums it up, its nothing spectacular its a simply system and there is no reason action combat can't be superior to it as long as it is designed well. The combat is more engaging, hand eye coordination is needed on some level and you are fighting in a more immersive experience. Me being called out? I can talk about all my experiences in mmorpgs I've played plenty of tab mmorpgs to understand the simplicity behind it. And when i say simplicity I'm not talking about making builds, mechs involved in skills and all the great fun stuff. I'm talking about the core of the actual combat. You click a button use your skill, que your next and use your skill. There is nothing about it that makes it difficult it doesn't require any skill all your abilities will hit the target without any of your own effort, half the time yo don't even need to be looking at your target you just need line of sight between characters regardless of your camera facing direction. Tab target - Click a skill, don't even need to have the camera facing the direction or being paying attention to the screen and your character uses the skill and always hits the target. Action - Must be moving to the target yourself, making sure you are in a good position and attacking it and landing your attack. ^ actual difference between the two at its core and nothing game breaking its simply more engaging. So again there is no reason why action combat can't do large man raids and also make it a more fun experience. I've just realized what we should really be saying to you... According to your own definition, there are nearly no Tab Target games. EQ2 and Lineage 2 are clearly Action Combat, so there's nothing to really be discussing here. By your definition, all those great games with good PvE are already Action Combat games and we just have to wait for Intrepid to make another Action Combat game just like them. EQ 2 and L2 are tab target games what are you talking about. If you are talking about my comment earlier I said the trend is leading to action / hybrid but some elemetns added or faked slightly. Example aoe in front over needing to have a mob targeted in swtor. I guess SWTOR is a True Tab Target game? I'm not talking about that though. So far I've seen an L2 player explain that your requirements for Action Combat are present in L2 (I agree that it isn't obvious by watching), and an EQ2 player explain that those requirements are present in EQ2, again, not obvious. I also am a person who fights Ancient Kutum in BDO often, on Nova. I also consider that Action Combat. My character moves occasionally, and I do need to face in the general direction of Kutum for my abilities to hit, and we all know that BDO is an Action Combat game. It's about the same really.
