I don't like action combat, and it could very potentially stop me from playing

I haven't played it yet, so I'm not drawing any sort of line yet. But steven asked for feedback about if we are going in a positive direction, and I'm just gonna say that every action combat korean type mmo I've ever played I have absolutely hated. I am tab target 100%, I think action combat only works from an overhead 3rd person perspective like diablo or league of legends or lost ark. I don't want to aim my ability's honestly, If I use a sword and get animation locked, and at the same time I'm required to dodge some kind of skill shot. I'm not gonna be happy. If I miss a spell as a spell caster because my mouse was 4 pixels off, same thing. Tab targeting let's me focus on what I think matters.

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Enigmatic Sage

Otr wrote: »

Now I understand why there is no gun powder! Imagine the range and bullet speed.

lol

JamesSunderland

NiKr wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

Weightless projectiles travel forever like laser bullets
I think that was an easy way to write the code. But is fun too. Probably we will not see it in AoC.

It wasn't even about the projectiles. I'd really have to doublecheck it, but I feel like at least on some version of the game you had a cast snap distance, where if you went over that distance the cast of your attacker would cancel. Now this won't leave my head, cause I can't remember it for sure

Yes, you could indeed cancel skills casts by going out of the maximum range for the cast to resolve fast enough before around 51% of the total cast time, it was just uncommon for characters to have enough movements speed to outrun peoples cast other than daggers or Kamaels with blink.
It worked for all versions ,here are some examples:

short-range skill: maximum range to start the cast 40, maximum range for the cast to resolve 400 http://l2j.ru/index.php?p=19&skid=9

medium-range skill: maximum range to start the cast 600, maximum range for the cast to resolve 1100
http://l2j.ru/index.php?p=19&skid=6

long-range skill: maximum range to start the cast 900, maximum range for the cast to resolve 1400
http://l2j.ru/index.php?p=19&skid=1230

234Graph

Solvryn wrote: »

This thread needs to be locked because it’s devolved into conjecture.

Here’s science, one combat system uses more fine tuned motor skills than the other. The other has that work coded into the game for you.

Both require a data driven intelligence to play.

That data is in the visual effects, sound, and combat text.

Depending on the mobs AI, both require a tactile-kinesthetic memorization of a sequence, other wise known as a rotation.

Meaningful boss fights come down to Intrepids ability to design good AI, not the actual combat system.

You can be a more skilled action player, it doesn’t mean you posses more intelligence then a tab player. But tab doesn’t require the fine tuned motor skills an action combat system requires.

That’s just how they’re built.

Most intelligent comment here

Dygz

I was able to kite satisfactorily in NWO. I dunno that it really matters much if you can target lock while not facing your opponent in Tab Target.
Action Combat is more focused on player twitch skills. I think we don't need walls of text to argue that point.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Already know about skill ques you are missing the point, its not about ques its about slow combat.

@Mag7spy

You know about them now, because I had to explain them to you. You didn't know about them, because your original comment on tab target game made it o obvious you didn't know about them (waiting for a skill to come off cooldown).

As I said, you cant look at a video to determine what is and is not fast paced. Of the two videos you linked the player in EQ2 has to make more actions per second than the NWO example - and these are examples YOU picked to illustrate your point, not mine (I am familiar with both games). While actions per second is not a metric I have ever seen used outside of RTS games, it is the appropriate metric to use when the accusation is that the game is slow.

Also, not only was there more actions per second in the EQ2 example that YOU provided to back up YOUR point, but they were taking on easy content that they have out geared, and are half ass'ing it. The player is clicking about half of their abilities - basically playing one handed (not going to ask what they are doing with the other hand).

Also, the class in question is one of the slower classes to play.

Sure NWO LOOKS busier, and as I keep saying, you are only concerned with how it looks.

EQ2 PLAYS faster, but you seem to lot be concerned with that at all. You are concerned with what LOOKS better, not with what PLAYS better.

Again, if you want to say you like action games because they LOOK better, and LOOK faster, have at it. Do not say they are faster, or that the combat is faster, because that is outright incorrect. In some games, some of the time, action may be faster - but in some games, some of the time, tab is faster. This is simply NOT one of the differences between these two combat systems.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Going to install eq 2 and test some things out.

2 things to keep in mind here.

1, we are talking about top end content. I have said many times that the value of tab target is in the content it allows for. As such, don't judge the game as a whole until you are taking on raid content (I would be as shocked as Fry if you get that far). You know it won't go well for you if you come here telling me about the level 8 skeletons you fought, and how easy they were.

2, you want to say tab target games are not deep, feel free to post screenshots of all of the pages you have to put AA/character advancement points in to. From memory, there are like 13 different pages right now, if you include tradeskills.

Noaani

mcstackerson wrote: »

Tab just means the delivery system, it has nothing to do with the rest of the combat system.

@mcstackerson

I'm a little disappointed you haven't come back to this yet, as I have a question for you.

Guess I'll just ask you anyway.

If the difference between tab and action is the delivery system, since all melee in both games require you to be within melee range and facing your target, does that mean there is no tab target melee combat?

This is why this definition of yours just doesn't work.

Selo

Have there ever been any pure action combat mmorpg that have been any good?

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Already know about skill ques you are missing the point, its not about ques its about slow combat.

@Mag7spy

You know about them now, because I had to explain them to you. You didn't know about them, because your original comment on tab target game made it o obvious you didn't know about them (waiting for a skill to come off cooldown).

As I said, you cant look at a video to determine what is and is not fast paced. Of the two videos you linked the player in EQ2 has to make more actions per second than the NWO example - and these are examples YOU picked to illustrate your point, not mine (I am familiar with both games). While actions per second is not a metric I have ever seen used outside of RTS games, it is the appropriate metric to use when the accusation is that the game is slow.

Also, not only was there more actions per second in the EQ2 example that YOU provided to back up YOUR point, but they were taking on easy content that they have out geared, and are half ass'ing it. The player is clicking about half of their abilities - basically playing one handed (not going to ask what they are doing with the other hand).

Also, the class in question is one of the slower classes to play.

Sure NWO LOOKS busier, and as I keep saying, you are only concerned with how it looks.

EQ2 PLAYS faster, but you seem to lot be concerned with that at all. You are concerned with what LOOKS better, not with what PLAYS better.

Again, if you want to say you like action games because they LOOK better, and LOOK faster, have at it. Do not say they are faster, or that the combat is faster, because that is outright incorrect. In some games, some of the time, action may be faster - but in some games, some of the time, tab is faster. This is simply NOT one of the differences between these two combat systems.

You are so stuck in your mind about defending tab target it is actually insane. I've always known about ability ques not from you telling me. ability ques DO NOT CHANGE COMBAT NOR EFFECT COMBAT so there for not something important id be using as a point to defend tab target.

Again when I talk about speed it doesn't need to be sonic but there is a huge difference when you have full control and its your actions that are needed in a fight. Unlike tab target games where you can run in a straights line not look at any of your target and the game does more then half the work for you as all you have to do is be near the mob and press the attack button.

How it looks is important it gives you an idea of what is going on and what characters can do. How does everquest look, static without much of a reason needed to move unless its during a mechanic. I'm not talking about dashing for dodging everywhere, you don't even need to control your camera in EQ2 the game is doing things for you. The moment the game does everything for you its a less immersive experience. Sure you can say maybe you have more reason to move in high end content (akin to the dragon L2 raid boss) though unsure if they have anything akin to aoe things you need to constantly dodge in EQ2. But the majority of content wouldn't be true to that because tab isn't designed for that. There is a reason when a mob attacks you aren't getting a chance to dodge (using a buff isn't a dodge but ateleport would be a fair dodge though) just like your abilities everything will auto hit you.

Again what I see is people standing still using their skills, moves auto hitting their target, little instances that involve more mobility (be it dodging a basic attack, aoe area you need to escape from, use of verticality, positioning for your attacks, etc), having no need to face the direction of the enemy you want to attack, no reason to aim any of your abilities.

These make the fight look like its almost 20 years dated and people wouldn't see gameplay like that and think this is exciting. Yes there is some flash in having action combat but that flash seen is do to changes to the gameplay experience. You can see your efforts of fighting and dodging abilities much better (ie mob is winding up t do this move O i just barely managed to dodge this beam, or mob was about to do this move and i countered its attack right before it went off), There is a much different feeling when you play a game and you are not bound by a world cooldown AND you need to be landing the attacks yourself against the mob it feels better and it just is more fun. So you do a high end raid with action and you are going to just get a better experience again as long as you have good designers.

You keep mistaking my comments on action vrs tab like as if I'm trying to say tab is not deep and takes 0 skill or thought. Again of course tab has good systems, you can make good builds, good mechs, etc. What I'm saying is action can do all of that and has another layer devs can work with to make a better experience with better mobility and more immersive combat. The more tools a dev has the better content they can make....

Mag7spy

Selo wrote: »

Have there ever been any pure action combat mmorpg that have been any good?

you should know about them unless you have been living under a rock ESO, NWO, BDO, Lost ark, New world, tera, guild wars 2. There are other ones as well though i don't feel they are as big but i could be wrong.

Yes but they suffer from other issues P2W plaguing a lot of them, lack of content, and other flaws in some cases game to game.

ashesplayer123

Selo wrote: »

Have there ever been any pure action combat mmorpg that have been any good?

your question is disingenuous. You're blurring the lines on purpose, and your question is loaded with the assumption that action combat MMORPGs fail due to having action combat, which is not true.

But you know what, I will go with it anyway, and I will answer your question.
BDO for example has great action combat, but the rest of the game is absolute ass. The moment I realized I'd have to swipe to stay competitive I quit. It didn't matter how good the combat was, it just simply didn't worth it.

Unfortunately many other action combat games have the same fate (probably all of them) as they are often developed for a completely different market, and the fact that they release in the west is just a byproduct.

This might come off as shocking to you, but MMORPGs are MORE than JUST combat.
Ashes of creation is probably the first MMORPG where action combat is going to be a significant part of the game (due to the combat's hybrid nature), and at the same time all the other systems are also very promising (and no P2W).

I prefer action combat over tab targeting, but if I had to pick from tab target, action combat, or hybrid, I'd always go with hybrid.
I have faith that the team can create something that's not only unique and works well, but also allows both tab target players and action combat players to find what they are looking for.
Keep in mind that combat is important, but so are all the other systems.

Dygz

Again...BDO Action combat is fine for a Hack & Slash, but sucks for an MMORPG.

Ludullu

JamesSunderland wrote: »

Yes, you could indeed cancel skills casts by going out of the maximum range for the cast to resolve fast enough before around 51% of the total cast time, it was just uncommon for characters to have enough movements speed to outrun peoples cast other than daggers or Kamaels with blink.
It worked for all versions

I'm not crazy after all

ashesplayer123

Dygz wrote: »

Again...BDO Action combat is fine for a Hack & Slash, but sucks for an MMORPG.

You're treating your preference like as if it was facts, when it's literally just an opinion and it's not worth more than mine or anyone else's.
I guess here I could say "Tab target and using my mouse button to choose targets is good for old school turn based RPGs (such as dragon age, KOTOR), but sucks for an MMORPG". This is just a sneaky attempt to nullify arguments by calling my example "not good".

In my opinion tab targeting is absolute cheeks because there is barely any gap between the skill floor and the skill ceiling, does this make it bad? No, of course not. It's popular for a reason, because it's easy to pick up and easy to master, and accessibility helps the more casual player base.
That doesn't make it good, nor bad. It's just different.
And do you know who else likes action combat? Steven.

And again, the reason why BDO is doing poorly is not the action combat. If you had some experience you would know how bad the majority of that game is, and that combat is almost single handedly carrying it.

CROW3

What I like most about tab targeting is it’s RPG core - it’s based on my character’s skill not my own. As my character evolves they miss less and hit harder.

With action it’s more about my skill as a player. Missing strikes in action is just a weird concept if I as a player are directing those strikes.

That said, the system I prefer most is action with an optional ‘lock on target’ function as in Neverwinter and Witcher 3.

Mag7spy

CROW3 wrote: »

What I like most about tab targeting is it’s RPG core - it’s based on my character’s skill not my own. As my character evolves they miss less and hit harder.

With action it’s more about my skill as a player. Missing strikes in action is just a weird concept if I as a player are directing those strikes.

That said, the system I prefer most is action with an optional ‘lock on target’ function as in Neverwinter and Witcher 3.

What i prefer is both the action elements and rpg stats. It needs both them. Which includes missing and attack if you miss your spell and missing stat wise. Which is also something done in BDO even if they do it poorly.

Ludullu

CROW3 wrote: »

That said, the system I prefer most is action with an optional ‘lock on target’ function as in Neverwinter

And here I thought NWO was purely action, yet this is also just hybrid. Or are you talking about non-online Neverwinter?

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

CROW3 wrote: »

That said, the system I prefer most is action with an optional ‘lock on target’ function as in Neverwinter

And here I thought NWO was purely action, yet this is also just hybrid. Or are you talking about non-online Neverwinter?

Lock on doesn't make it hybrid if when you use a spell it can still miss or hit some other object. Also I don't remember any lock on in NWO.

A tab target element that would make anything hybrid if they have a lot of those elements in the gaemplay. Would be You select your target with your cursor or tab. You use your kill and the ability curves towards the target or hits it instantly never missing (not talking about evasion stats).

Lock on, heavy targeting or soft targeting are all action based elements as it requires you to use some form of skill and hand eye coordination to attack your enemy.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

A tab target element that would make anything hybrid if they have a lot of those elements in the gaemplay. Would be You select your target with your cursor or tab. You use your kill and the ability curves towards the target or hits it instantly never missing (not talking about evasion stats).

Lock on, heavy targeting or soft targeting are all action based elements as it requires you to use some form of skill and hand eye coordination to attack your enemy.

I just call that shit hybrid, just like Dygz likes to call BDO hack&slash

To me the only true pure action game is one where there's no targeting at all. Anything else is a hybrid, same as most tab games are hybrids too because they have action skills. New World is omega hybrid too, with its shitty healing.

CROW3

NiKr wrote: »

And here I thought NWO was purely action, yet this is also just hybrid. Or are you talking about non-online Neverwinter?

Rangers can lock onto a target.

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