Azherae wrote: » Except hardcore PvP games like MineCraft ofc.
NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Ya I've done similar things in pvp in tab target which gives you a break and a edge. I wouldn't call that dodging though but 100% would be positioning. Though with action combat you can have positioning without any use of terrain and simply created from the skill level in the game. Things like this I'm fully aware in tab target as its ways to try to get around the system and have a edge as breaking line of sight is one of the only ways to avoid being hit in tab target. The other other option would be teleport blink that might give you a iframe if timed well, and sitting in the water so no pvp can happen (though some of them have water combat) Yeah, and in action combat games "dodging" is also just pressing a button, based on your prediction of your enemy's movement. So I see no difference between L2's environment and "use of dodge skills" gameplay and action mmo's "press A two times to dodge to the left" gameplay. Does it happen more often in action games? Yes. Is the pure skill requirement way higher in action games? I wouldn't really say so, because most abilities in action games are aoes, so it's not like you're purely aiming very precise hit scans. I'd say smth like Halo Infinite (and probably other Halos too? Haven't played others) with its dashes slides, hooks and jumps are way closer to what I'm imagining as "truly action" combat. It's constant movement, and high requirement for precision aiming against fast-moving targets is what I'm looking for in action games. If there're action mmos that operate at the same speed w/o just a shitton of aoes and have good-feeling combat - I'd consider that the best action mmo. From what I've seen, BDO is like 80++% aoes so even with its high speed it's still not as high of a skill requirement as I would like to see in high end pve/pvp action mmos. And that's just pvp. I really dunno how well can devs design a boss that moves as fast as a top lvl player and can somehow fight 20+ people at the same time, while requiring top lvl gameplay from all of them equally. I do not consider "huge mob stands in one place, while all the action players don't move" all that skill-requiring. And I'd assume Noaani's standards are leaaagues above mine, when it comes to pve difficulty/complexity.
Mag7spy wrote: » Ya I've done similar things in pvp in tab target which gives you a break and a edge. I wouldn't call that dodging though but 100% would be positioning. Though with action combat you can have positioning without any use of terrain and simply created from the skill level in the game. Things like this I'm fully aware in tab target as its ways to try to get around the system and have a edge as breaking line of sight is one of the only ways to avoid being hit in tab target. The other other option would be teleport blink that might give you a iframe if timed well, and sitting in the water so no pvp can happen (though some of them have water combat)
NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Yes they lol, I wouldn't even say i was playing the game I simply was jumping on to confirm you didn't need to control or aim your camera to attack a target if they were not in line of sight. I forgot to mention this yesterday but this is probably the biggest example of what Dygz keeps saying. Mmorpgs have you play a character in the game, with that character having some of its own agency. You're just the semi-omniscient being within that character's "head" who can control its actions while also providing more info to the character than it should have (i.e. being able to see behind the character w/o it turning). While action combat mmos bring you way closer to the character and limiting the character's agency. Character's stats don't matter as much because your own physical abilities determine the skill. And the amount of information that either you or the character has is more limited. So what I'm saying with this is - everyone who wants a more tab-leaning game has a god complex and wants to control people. Yep, 100% the case
Mag7spy wrote: » Yes they lol, I wouldn't even say i was playing the game I simply was jumping on to confirm you didn't need to control or aim your camera to attack a target if they were not in line of sight.
nidriks wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » nidriks wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Again tab target is old and out dated there is nothing special about it, it's for slow paced gameplay. Did you by chance check out the L2 video I posted for Azherae? It was quite fast. And that was just 1v1 pvp, which is fairly slower than mass pvp, so that's not the limit on tab target mmo speed. And you could get even faster if you wanted to really push the player's reaction speeds. Not all tab mmos have 10-year-long gcds that slow down combat to a fucking crawl. Ya i saw it and if I think back to my nostalgia days I had epic fights in swtor being ganked by 2 jedi of equal level and out playing both them mechanically wise. The issue with tab target is you are locked on to the person and everything hits. I'm aware there are mobility skills for blink and teleporting on people, charge, etc. But when everything locks on and nothing misses its not really as epic as a fight can be. When you have that difficult of I need to land this skill or dodging in motion on top of all the mechanical elements. You aren't just out playing one person but you can out play entire groups to an extent of the gameplay. That is why Ashes is going in the right direction with hybrid, which is pretty much tab evolved with more elements of mobility and skill. And you will end up having the most epic fights 100%. If you look back to very old mmorpgs L2, everquest and shadowbane there is actually a pattern overtime of more action elements even if some of them are faked being added to mmorpgs. Its why combat has felt better overtime with tab target, but they pretty much are at the peak at what they can do and next step is hybrid. If you think you are hard locked on to a specific target in tab target MMOs, or unable to miss, then I don't think you've played enough of the old games. Perhaps you're not explaining yourself perfectly, but I would like to inform you that a good group in a challenging zone could require a huge amount of target switching and organisation. You almost make it sound like games like EQ saw you stood still, twiddling your thumbs whilst your PC beat on a mob. Movement in EQ was also paramount. You are very wrong if you think movement and positioning is only a key part of action or hybrid combat games. Personally, I'd rather stand still than jump about like a loon, as players do in many of the last few year's action combat games. As I've said previously in this thread, I do feel MMOs need to move forward and keep combat progressing, but I also think a lot of people commenting here don't have the knowledge they profess to have about older tab target MMOs. It was tactical rather than twitchy, but in no way did that mean tab target combat was stale, slow and lacking skill. I've played a crap ton of old mmorpgs you don't miss your shots that is not how the system works for tab target. When you use a skill it hits the target there are no questions about that. How the target reactions to the math is not what I'm talking about. Not onyl do you hit the target but there isn't aim involved in the fight all you simply need to do is use the skill. If the person or mob is hiding behind a tree of rock of course you cant hit them you don't have line of sight. Any old mmorpg player should know the difference between line of sight and not needing to aim or be camera facing for your attack. In pvp in tab target games you kite, everyone is aware of that but there is a different between kiting and having actual abilities that effect your physical placement allowing you to dodge quickly out of the way of attacks. I'm sure people pushed things as far as they could within tab target to make the combat feel fast, but its a whole different ball game with action combat where you need to be landing your attacks and can dodge attacks as well with reaction being a lot more important for clear reasons. Like the video i showed above with the ranger pvp that would be a different fight all together if he had to aim his attacks and not just run away to kite and use his skills. Of course there was line of sight in tab target games. I well remember the line "you can not see your enemy", or some such line. SWTOR was even more tactical with regards to movement and target switchging than EQ or EQ2. The one problem I have with action combat, other than my much stated jumping about like sonic, is that I do feel this obsession with combat like single player games has taken away from the social side of MMOs. It's not the only thing to blame but having slower, more tactical combat made the game more social. When you're jumping around and spamming skills and dodging enemy blows the game loses that social impact. MMOs have become too fast and taken away the bonding element that EQ had. I liked sitting behind my spellbook to "med" in EQ. I liked sitting my cleric in the throne at the back of the room and keeping my group alive. There were many situations where you needed to be on your toes and think about position (more with dps and tanks, granted), and those situations definitely became more common in later games. To be honest, this arguing over which is better is stupid. What's most important is working together in testing and making sure the combat in Ashes is the best it can be. I may not be a fan of action combat but I believe a hybrid system can be the best for everyone. It can take the best of tab target and combine it with the best of action combat. The problem with everyone arguing over the combat is that people will test based on their biases. Test based on the combat in the game. I think I realised that when I saw the video from the other day. It looked so much better than I thought it would. Besides, it's not "which is better" it's what people preferred. Some people also clearly aren't as knowledgable about the older styled games as they think they are.
Mag7spy wrote: » nidriks wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Again tab target is old and out dated there is nothing special about it, it's for slow paced gameplay. Did you by chance check out the L2 video I posted for Azherae? It was quite fast. And that was just 1v1 pvp, which is fairly slower than mass pvp, so that's not the limit on tab target mmo speed. And you could get even faster if you wanted to really push the player's reaction speeds. Not all tab mmos have 10-year-long gcds that slow down combat to a fucking crawl. Ya i saw it and if I think back to my nostalgia days I had epic fights in swtor being ganked by 2 jedi of equal level and out playing both them mechanically wise. The issue with tab target is you are locked on to the person and everything hits. I'm aware there are mobility skills for blink and teleporting on people, charge, etc. But when everything locks on and nothing misses its not really as epic as a fight can be. When you have that difficult of I need to land this skill or dodging in motion on top of all the mechanical elements. You aren't just out playing one person but you can out play entire groups to an extent of the gameplay. That is why Ashes is going in the right direction with hybrid, which is pretty much tab evolved with more elements of mobility and skill. And you will end up having the most epic fights 100%. If you look back to very old mmorpgs L2, everquest and shadowbane there is actually a pattern overtime of more action elements even if some of them are faked being added to mmorpgs. Its why combat has felt better overtime with tab target, but they pretty much are at the peak at what they can do and next step is hybrid. If you think you are hard locked on to a specific target in tab target MMOs, or unable to miss, then I don't think you've played enough of the old games. Perhaps you're not explaining yourself perfectly, but I would like to inform you that a good group in a challenging zone could require a huge amount of target switching and organisation. You almost make it sound like games like EQ saw you stood still, twiddling your thumbs whilst your PC beat on a mob. Movement in EQ was also paramount. You are very wrong if you think movement and positioning is only a key part of action or hybrid combat games. Personally, I'd rather stand still than jump about like a loon, as players do in many of the last few year's action combat games. As I've said previously in this thread, I do feel MMOs need to move forward and keep combat progressing, but I also think a lot of people commenting here don't have the knowledge they profess to have about older tab target MMOs. It was tactical rather than twitchy, but in no way did that mean tab target combat was stale, slow and lacking skill. I've played a crap ton of old mmorpgs you don't miss your shots that is not how the system works for tab target. When you use a skill it hits the target there are no questions about that. How the target reactions to the math is not what I'm talking about. Not onyl do you hit the target but there isn't aim involved in the fight all you simply need to do is use the skill. If the person or mob is hiding behind a tree of rock of course you cant hit them you don't have line of sight. Any old mmorpg player should know the difference between line of sight and not needing to aim or be camera facing for your attack. In pvp in tab target games you kite, everyone is aware of that but there is a different between kiting and having actual abilities that effect your physical placement allowing you to dodge quickly out of the way of attacks. I'm sure people pushed things as far as they could within tab target to make the combat feel fast, but its a whole different ball game with action combat where you need to be landing your attacks and can dodge attacks as well with reaction being a lot more important for clear reasons. Like the video i showed above with the ranger pvp that would be a different fight all together if he had to aim his attacks and not just run away to kite and use his skills.
nidriks wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Again tab target is old and out dated there is nothing special about it, it's for slow paced gameplay. Did you by chance check out the L2 video I posted for Azherae? It was quite fast. And that was just 1v1 pvp, which is fairly slower than mass pvp, so that's not the limit on tab target mmo speed. And you could get even faster if you wanted to really push the player's reaction speeds. Not all tab mmos have 10-year-long gcds that slow down combat to a fucking crawl. Ya i saw it and if I think back to my nostalgia days I had epic fights in swtor being ganked by 2 jedi of equal level and out playing both them mechanically wise. The issue with tab target is you are locked on to the person and everything hits. I'm aware there are mobility skills for blink and teleporting on people, charge, etc. But when everything locks on and nothing misses its not really as epic as a fight can be. When you have that difficult of I need to land this skill or dodging in motion on top of all the mechanical elements. You aren't just out playing one person but you can out play entire groups to an extent of the gameplay. That is why Ashes is going in the right direction with hybrid, which is pretty much tab evolved with more elements of mobility and skill. And you will end up having the most epic fights 100%. If you look back to very old mmorpgs L2, everquest and shadowbane there is actually a pattern overtime of more action elements even if some of them are faked being added to mmorpgs. Its why combat has felt better overtime with tab target, but they pretty much are at the peak at what they can do and next step is hybrid. If you think you are hard locked on to a specific target in tab target MMOs, or unable to miss, then I don't think you've played enough of the old games. Perhaps you're not explaining yourself perfectly, but I would like to inform you that a good group in a challenging zone could require a huge amount of target switching and organisation. You almost make it sound like games like EQ saw you stood still, twiddling your thumbs whilst your PC beat on a mob. Movement in EQ was also paramount. You are very wrong if you think movement and positioning is only a key part of action or hybrid combat games. Personally, I'd rather stand still than jump about like a loon, as players do in many of the last few year's action combat games. As I've said previously in this thread, I do feel MMOs need to move forward and keep combat progressing, but I also think a lot of people commenting here don't have the knowledge they profess to have about older tab target MMOs. It was tactical rather than twitchy, but in no way did that mean tab target combat was stale, slow and lacking skill.
Mag7spy wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Again tab target is old and out dated there is nothing special about it, it's for slow paced gameplay. Did you by chance check out the L2 video I posted for Azherae? It was quite fast. And that was just 1v1 pvp, which is fairly slower than mass pvp, so that's not the limit on tab target mmo speed. And you could get even faster if you wanted to really push the player's reaction speeds. Not all tab mmos have 10-year-long gcds that slow down combat to a fucking crawl. Ya i saw it and if I think back to my nostalgia days I had epic fights in swtor being ganked by 2 jedi of equal level and out playing both them mechanically wise. The issue with tab target is you are locked on to the person and everything hits. I'm aware there are mobility skills for blink and teleporting on people, charge, etc. But when everything locks on and nothing misses its not really as epic as a fight can be. When you have that difficult of I need to land this skill or dodging in motion on top of all the mechanical elements. You aren't just out playing one person but you can out play entire groups to an extent of the gameplay. That is why Ashes is going in the right direction with hybrid, which is pretty much tab evolved with more elements of mobility and skill. And you will end up having the most epic fights 100%. If you look back to very old mmorpgs L2, everquest and shadowbane there is actually a pattern overtime of more action elements even if some of them are faked being added to mmorpgs. Its why combat has felt better overtime with tab target, but they pretty much are at the peak at what they can do and next step is hybrid.
NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Again tab target is old and out dated there is nothing special about it, it's for slow paced gameplay. Did you by chance check out the L2 video I posted for Azherae? It was quite fast. And that was just 1v1 pvp, which is fairly slower than mass pvp, so that's not the limit on tab target mmo speed. And you could get even faster if you wanted to really push the player's reaction speeds. Not all tab mmos have 10-year-long gcds that slow down combat to a fucking crawl.
Mag7spy wrote: » Again tab target is old and out dated there is nothing special about it, it's for slow paced gameplay.
NiKr wrote: » I forgot to mention this yesterday but this is probably the biggest example of what Dygz keeps saying. Mmorpgs have you play a character in the game, with that character having some of its own agency. You're just the semi-omniscient being within that character's "head" who can control its actions while also providing more info to the character than it should have (i.e. being able to see behind the character w/o it turning). While action combat mmos bring you way closer to the character and limiting the character's agency. Character's stats don't matter as much because your own physical abilities determine the skill. And the amount of information that either you or the character has is more limited. So what I'm saying with this is - everyone who wants a more tab-leaning game has a god complex and wants to control people. Yep, 100% the case
Mag7spy wrote: » You can make stats matter in action combat just as much, in BDO you could make builds where people couldn't hit you do to evasion.
Dygz wrote: » NiKr wrote: » I forgot to mention this yesterday but this is probably the biggest example of what Dygz keeps saying. Mmorpgs have you play a character in the game, with that character having some of its own agency. You're just the semi-omniscient being within that character's "head" who can control its actions while also providing more info to the character than it should have (i.e. being able to see behind the character w/o it turning). While action combat mmos bring you way closer to the character and limiting the character's agency. Character's stats don't matter as much because your own physical abilities determine the skill. And the amount of information that either you or the character has is more limited. So what I'm saying with this is - everyone who wants a more tab-leaning game has a god complex and wants to control people. Yep, 100% the case That's an interesting pov because I'd say that with RPing a character, the character decides how I play as a player. A focus on player skill over character skill has me not caring much about the character, rather it's about how I play as the player. BDO feels like I'm playing a 3D version of Mortal Kombat. I'm not really playing a class. I don't care about the character's interests. I just wander around button-mashing rotations, regardless of the class or race or gender I've chosen.
Mag7spy wrote: » nidriks wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » nidriks wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Again tab target is old and out dated there is nothing special about it, it's for slow paced gameplay. Did you by chance check out the L2 video I posted for Azherae? It was quite fast. And that was just 1v1 pvp, which is fairly slower than mass pvp, so that's not the limit on tab target mmo speed. And you could get even faster if you wanted to really push the player's reaction speeds. Not all tab mmos have 10-year-long gcds that slow down combat to a fucking crawl. Ya i saw it and if I think back to my nostalgia days I had epic fights in swtor being ganked by 2 jedi of equal level and out playing both them mechanically wise. The issue with tab target is you are locked on to the person and everything hits. I'm aware there are mobility skills for blink and teleporting on people, charge, etc. But when everything locks on and nothing misses its not really as epic as a fight can be. When you have that difficult of I need to land this skill or dodging in motion on top of all the mechanical elements. You aren't just out playing one person but you can out play entire groups to an extent of the gameplay. That is why Ashes is going in the right direction with hybrid, which is pretty much tab evolved with more elements of mobility and skill. And you will end up having the most epic fights 100%. If you look back to very old mmorpgs L2, everquest and shadowbane there is actually a pattern overtime of more action elements even if some of them are faked being added to mmorpgs. Its why combat has felt better overtime with tab target, but they pretty much are at the peak at what they can do and next step is hybrid. If you think you are hard locked on to a specific target in tab target MMOs, or unable to miss, then I don't think you've played enough of the old games. Perhaps you're not explaining yourself perfectly, but I would like to inform you that a good group in a challenging zone could require a huge amount of target switching and organisation. You almost make it sound like games like EQ saw you stood still, twiddling your thumbs whilst your PC beat on a mob. Movement in EQ was also paramount. You are very wrong if you think movement and positioning is only a key part of action or hybrid combat games. Personally, I'd rather stand still than jump about like a loon, as players do in many of the last few year's action combat games. As I've said previously in this thread, I do feel MMOs need to move forward and keep combat progressing, but I also think a lot of people commenting here don't have the knowledge they profess to have about older tab target MMOs. It was tactical rather than twitchy, but in no way did that mean tab target combat was stale, slow and lacking skill. I've played a crap ton of old mmorpgs you don't miss your shots that is not how the system works for tab target. When you use a skill it hits the target there are no questions about that. How the target reactions to the math is not what I'm talking about. Not onyl do you hit the target but there isn't aim involved in the fight all you simply need to do is use the skill. If the person or mob is hiding behind a tree of rock of course you cant hit them you don't have line of sight. Any old mmorpg player should know the difference between line of sight and not needing to aim or be camera facing for your attack. In pvp in tab target games you kite, everyone is aware of that but there is a different between kiting and having actual abilities that effect your physical placement allowing you to dodge quickly out of the way of attacks. I'm sure people pushed things as far as they could within tab target to make the combat feel fast, but its a whole different ball game with action combat where you need to be landing your attacks and can dodge attacks as well with reaction being a lot more important for clear reasons. Like the video i showed above with the ranger pvp that would be a different fight all together if he had to aim his attacks and not just run away to kite and use his skills. Of course there was line of sight in tab target games. I well remember the line "you can not see your enemy", or some such line. SWTOR was even more tactical with regards to movement and target switchging than EQ or EQ2. The one problem I have with action combat, other than my much stated jumping about like sonic, is that I do feel this obsession with combat like single player games has taken away from the social side of MMOs. It's not the only thing to blame but having slower, more tactical combat made the game more social. When you're jumping around and spamming skills and dodging enemy blows the game loses that social impact. MMOs have become too fast and taken away the bonding element that EQ had. I liked sitting behind my spellbook to "med" in EQ. I liked sitting my cleric in the throne at the back of the room and keeping my group alive. There were many situations where you needed to be on your toes and think about position (more with dps and tanks, granted), and those situations definitely became more common in later games. To be honest, this arguing over which is better is stupid. What's most important is working together in testing and making sure the combat in Ashes is the best it can be. I may not be a fan of action combat but I believe a hybrid system can be the best for everyone. It can take the best of tab target and combine it with the best of action combat. The problem with everyone arguing over the combat is that people will test based on their biases. Test based on the combat in the game. I think I realised that when I saw the video from the other day. It looked so much better than I thought it would. Besides, it's not "which is better" it's what people preferred. Some people also clearly aren't as knowledgable about the older styled games as they think they are. I am very knowledge on older mmorpgs i can promise you that lol. There are just some details I don't think are important or should just be second hand nature to tab target mmorpgs. Though i feel the form of this debate has changed, the core I was really getting across is the comment its impossible for action combat can't do good raids and have a variety of content between it and I just know that is false.
NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » You can make stats matter in action combat just as much, in BDO you could make builds where people couldn't hit you do to evasion. I'm not an action mmo main player so I wouldn't know, but I feel like that's a bad way of approaching balancing in an action mmo. From what I've heard people hate the fact that OE gear in BDO can just make you invincible against people, even though the game requires a ton of physical skill from the player. To me, that kinda goes against the whole premise of "action mmos give you more space to show and prove your physical skill, while tab games give you more space to make builds and come up with proper rotations for different situations" (though obviously, most people just look up guides).
Azherae wrote: » I just wanna say that while I absolutely agree with you, I mean 1000% agree with you... This isn't because of BDO's combat. Not even the whole 'this is basically AoE spam burn-down'. I hope we can at least move past the concept that BDO's COMBAT is the reason you don't feel connected to the character. BDO's ability to immerse the player is so low that they have reworked their own main starter story 9 times and only now is it even remotely beginning to have a effect. That is not a Combat issue, though.
nidriks wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » nidriks wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » nidriks wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Again tab target is old and out dated there is nothing special about it, it's for slow paced gameplay. Did you by chance check out the L2 video I posted for Azherae? It was quite fast. And that was just 1v1 pvp, which is fairly slower than mass pvp, so that's not the limit on tab target mmo speed. And you could get even faster if you wanted to really push the player's reaction speeds. Not all tab mmos have 10-year-long gcds that slow down combat to a fucking crawl. Ya i saw it and if I think back to my nostalgia days I had epic fights in swtor being ganked by 2 jedi of equal level and out playing both them mechanically wise. The issue with tab target is you are locked on to the person and everything hits. I'm aware there are mobility skills for blink and teleporting on people, charge, etc. But when everything locks on and nothing misses its not really as epic as a fight can be. When you have that difficult of I need to land this skill or dodging in motion on top of all the mechanical elements. You aren't just out playing one person but you can out play entire groups to an extent of the gameplay. That is why Ashes is going in the right direction with hybrid, which is pretty much tab evolved with more elements of mobility and skill. And you will end up having the most epic fights 100%. If you look back to very old mmorpgs L2, everquest and shadowbane there is actually a pattern overtime of more action elements even if some of them are faked being added to mmorpgs. Its why combat has felt better overtime with tab target, but they pretty much are at the peak at what they can do and next step is hybrid. If you think you are hard locked on to a specific target in tab target MMOs, or unable to miss, then I don't think you've played enough of the old games. Perhaps you're not explaining yourself perfectly, but I would like to inform you that a good group in a challenging zone could require a huge amount of target switching and organisation. You almost make it sound like games like EQ saw you stood still, twiddling your thumbs whilst your PC beat on a mob. Movement in EQ was also paramount. You are very wrong if you think movement and positioning is only a key part of action or hybrid combat games. Personally, I'd rather stand still than jump about like a loon, as players do in many of the last few year's action combat games. As I've said previously in this thread, I do feel MMOs need to move forward and keep combat progressing, but I also think a lot of people commenting here don't have the knowledge they profess to have about older tab target MMOs. It was tactical rather than twitchy, but in no way did that mean tab target combat was stale, slow and lacking skill. I've played a crap ton of old mmorpgs you don't miss your shots that is not how the system works for tab target. When you use a skill it hits the target there are no questions about that. How the target reactions to the math is not what I'm talking about. Not onyl do you hit the target but there isn't aim involved in the fight all you simply need to do is use the skill. If the person or mob is hiding behind a tree of rock of course you cant hit them you don't have line of sight. Any old mmorpg player should know the difference between line of sight and not needing to aim or be camera facing for your attack. In pvp in tab target games you kite, everyone is aware of that but there is a different between kiting and having actual abilities that effect your physical placement allowing you to dodge quickly out of the way of attacks. I'm sure people pushed things as far as they could within tab target to make the combat feel fast, but its a whole different ball game with action combat where you need to be landing your attacks and can dodge attacks as well with reaction being a lot more important for clear reasons. Like the video i showed above with the ranger pvp that would be a different fight all together if he had to aim his attacks and not just run away to kite and use his skills. Of course there was line of sight in tab target games. I well remember the line "you can not see your enemy", or some such line. SWTOR was even more tactical with regards to movement and target switchging than EQ or EQ2. The one problem I have with action combat, other than my much stated jumping about like sonic, is that I do feel this obsession with combat like single player games has taken away from the social side of MMOs. It's not the only thing to blame but having slower, more tactical combat made the game more social. When you're jumping around and spamming skills and dodging enemy blows the game loses that social impact. MMOs have become too fast and taken away the bonding element that EQ had. I liked sitting behind my spellbook to "med" in EQ. I liked sitting my cleric in the throne at the back of the room and keeping my group alive. There were many situations where you needed to be on your toes and think about position (more with dps and tanks, granted), and those situations definitely became more common in later games. To be honest, this arguing over which is better is stupid. What's most important is working together in testing and making sure the combat in Ashes is the best it can be. I may not be a fan of action combat but I believe a hybrid system can be the best for everyone. It can take the best of tab target and combine it with the best of action combat. The problem with everyone arguing over the combat is that people will test based on their biases. Test based on the combat in the game. I think I realised that when I saw the video from the other day. It looked so much better than I thought it would. Besides, it's not "which is better" it's what people preferred. Some people also clearly aren't as knowledgable about the older styled games as they think they are. I am very knowledge on older mmorpgs i can promise you that lol. There are just some details I don't think are important or should just be second hand nature to tab target mmorpgs. Though i feel the form of this debate has changed, the core I was really getting across is the comment its impossible for action combat can't do good raids and have a variety of content between it and I just know that is false. Well, you seem to be getting a lot of things wrong. I'm not entirely sure what you are saying with the second comment but it sounds like you're saying that some of the good points of tab target MMOs are moot because action is better, regardless. I could be wrong. I don't know much about action combat and raids but I can imagine that a lot of people moving around excessively can do big harm to positioning. Action combat could make people careless. Though, in fairness, only the tank should need to dodge. If clerics and dps are getting hit in a raid then they're doing something wrong. Again, though, I think this is another point in favour of the fact I'm pushing that action combat is not as social. But this is why I am saying we all need to test Ashes without prejudices. Judge the combat the game has, not the combat styles as you see them in other MMOs.
Dygz wrote: » Azherae wrote: » I just wanna say that while I absolutely agree with you, I mean 1000% agree with you... This isn't because of BDO's combat. Not even the whole 'this is basically AoE spam burn-down'. I hope we can at least move past the concept that BDO's COMBAT is the reason you don't feel connected to the character. BDO's ability to immerse the player is so low that they have reworked their own main starter story 9 times and only now is it even remotely beginning to have a effect. That is not a Combat issue, though. I mean... it's true I didn't connect much to the story, but the story was kind of OK. The primary issue is the combat. It's just button-mashing. And you button-mash a little bit different depending on the class - just as I woud button-mash differentlt depending on whether I choose Johnny Cage or Jax. I never feel like I am playing my class in BDO. Sure, I automatically get a new ability when I level, but I don't care what that ability is. It will do some stuff and it will make combat a bit easier. I'm not invested in my character(s). And combat and ttk is too quick for me to synergize my tactics with the tactics of peope in my group. We just button-mash unti everything around us is dead and then race to the next battle.
Dygz wrote: » I don't understand how itemization would help my Assassin feel like an Assassin. The best RPG I've played that helped me feel like my class is KOA-Reckoning and that had nothing to do with itemization and everything to do with Stealth, Theft and Stealth Kills. BDO is a good MMO Hack & Slash. BDO is not a good MMORPG.
