Action Combat for meele classes, tab targeting for ranged classes

What do you guys prefer, cross aiming or tab targeting for ranged dps classes?
Furthermore would you like to see different approaches with different classes?
EG:
- Ranged agility based classes (like hunters) -> Action Combat (Cross aim) with basic attacks
- Ranged intelligence based classes (like mages) --> Tab Targeting with basic attacks + skill shot abilities

Since with mage classes the core gameplay is to land your abilities (where the most dmg comes from), i think tab targeting for your basic attacks should be fine. The skill with intelligence based classes shouldnt be measured by what player has the best aim in the game.
It should be measured by the tactical use of your set of abilities and by landing those. IMO

But there should be room for players, who come from fps games, as well. They should be able to show their skill and beeing rewarded in fights too e.g. by having a good aim. I dont know the exact numbers but with my knowlege from other games like New World I can imagine that those fps oriented players like are choosing classes with bows, gunpowder weappons, etc.

So why dont we do cross aiming your basic attacks for those agility based classes and tab targeting your basic attacks for intelligence based classes?

Since we are talking about two different approaches of dmg output you would have the advantage of adjusting the dmg output of the classes individually when balancing the classes overall. From my point of view this would be a better solution for the balacing overall rather than giving people the choice of swapping between action and tabtargeting with any ranged dps class.

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Mag7spy

When people say 100% accuracy they only mean that there is 0 effort involved and you just hold a button and every singe arrow hits. They are not talking about added rng of a dodge proc happening in stats.

ItsmeToki

I understand your opinions on that dmg output takes more effort if you are using an action based combatsystem than it would take with a tab targeting system. So aimed attacks with action combat should be rewarded with higher dmg per hit.

If you guys have played wow on rank one gladiator lvl tho, you woulnd argue that there is a lot of skill involved in a tab target oriented combat system. The skill is more about counter reaction. Its like a game of speed chess. So please reconsider in your answers, if in AoC the abilitykits are as complex as in a game like wow and furthermore you have to aim every single basic attack, combat can get quit challenging and would build a hugh gab in playerskills.

Solvryn

ItsmeToki wrote: »

I understand your opinions on that dmg output takes more effort if you are using an action based combatsystem than it would take with a tab targeting system. So aimed attacks with action combat should be rewarded with higher dmg per hit.

If you guys have played wow on rank one gladiator lvl tho, you woulnd argue that there is a lot of skill involved in a tab target oriented combat system. The skill is more about counter reaction. Its like a game of speed chess. So please reconsider in your answers, if in AoC the abilitykits are as complex as in a game like wow and furthermore you have to aim every single basic attack, combat can get quit challenging and would build a hugh gab in playerskills.

I played WoW, it involves data intelligence. But it doesn’t have the additional layer needed to play action combat well.

Dygz

Mag7spy wrote: »

When people say 100% accuracy they only mean that there is 0 effort involved and you just hold a button and every singe arrow hits. They are not talking about added rng of a dodge proc happening in stats.

Which is pointless because it doesn't really matter that it appears to be a hit if the stats and RNG count it as a miss. A miss is not 100% accuracy.

Mag7spy

Dygz wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

When people say 100% accuracy they only mean that there is 0 effort involved and you just hold a button and every singe arrow hits. They are not talking about added rng of a dodge proc happening in stats.

Which is pointless because it doesn't really matter that it appears to be a hit if the stats and RNG count it as a miss. A miss is not 100% accuracy.

No one is talking about math evasion stats, if you click a tab skill on a person you don't need to aim it will be used on them 100%. In a action based you need to aim therefore you have a chance to miss your aim.

If we go to programming on a simply level (im not a programmer but have a basic understanding on it). Tab target uses an ability on a target as long as there is no line of site it will 100% be effected on that target.

For the game to consider evading dmg on a character it needs to connect with the target else you would never see the evasion stat.

If you really believe its the same not much else I can say.

Dygz

In both Tab Target and Action Combat there is a chance to miss your target.
With Tab Target, there will be more RNG and stat calculation to determine whether it's a hit or miss and resolve any damage or FX.
With Action Combat it will be based much more on player skills.

I didn't say anything about them being "the same".

falcorpix

ranged action combat but with a bit of aim assistance

Enigmatic Sage

falcorpix wrote: »

ranged action combat but with a bit of aim assistance

for action combat? I hope not, tab targeting feature with the auto-aim tracking is already enough especially when you consider an archer classes arrow tracking lol. Just looks silly.

a bit of a tangent but it's a shame that in games like COD, BF and Destiny 2 that they coded in aim assist. In Destiny 2, it's what caused many gamers to not want to play it. Different guns have different range allowances for how the aim assist works before you get into attachments.

Anyways, as mentioned, the more true aim assist has a good chance of being the tab target lock on feature where as with AC potentially more liberal with the hit box interaction.

Voidwalkers

I'd prefer mostly tab targeting for ranged, mixed in with a few skillshots that requires directional aiming (not crosshair). Basically just as the devs have said, a choice (by the player) somewhere between 75% tab 25% action ~ 25% tab 75% action.

This is an RPG after all, not an FPS. And if ranged combat requires the skills & effort of manual crosshair aiming, then I'd argue it should also come with the perks of crosshair aiming so the whole hassle feels rewarding instead of just being a source of stress:

- All targets (mobs, bosses, players) should have weak points that can be aimed at for extra high damage, and armored / shielded spots that reduce incoming ranged damage. So I can boast my awesome aiming skills (when I finally have it) that I can headshot everything!
- Sniper crossbows with scopes / super long range sniping spells should be a thing, so I can put my hardly earned aiming skills (as demanded by all the "learn to play / practice & improve your skills" folks out there) to good use.

... Sounds broken? I'd think so too. This is going to set the bar too high for many RPG players (not everyone loves and actively plays FPS), and it's gonna cause a ton of balancing issues, and likely also put a heavier load on the servers.

So, please just let the tab targeting stick around, and let action-aimed skills remain as OPTIONs.

falcorpix

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

falcorpix wrote: »

ranged action combat but with a bit of aim assistance

for action combat? I hope not, tab targeting feature with the auto-aim tracking is already enough especially when you consider an archer classes arrow tracking lol. Just looks silly.

If tab target is really gonna be in the game than the action target part of the game needs aim assistance, otherwise is like playing FPS against aimbotters

Enigmatic Sage

falcorpix wrote: »

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

falcorpix wrote: »

ranged action combat but with a bit of aim assistance

for action combat? I hope not, tab targeting feature with the auto-aim tracking is already enough especially when you consider an archer classes arrow tracking lol. Just looks silly.

If tab target is really gonna be in the game than the action target part of the game needs aim assistance, otherwise is like playing FPS against aimbotters

I disagree as we dont know the limitations of tracking yet. it could be much shorter range and with dodge, roll and evasive mechanics alike (including environmental and other player collision), it could be quite viable, especially if they reward players for not using the tab target tracking. There could definitely be a downside to using tab target system regardless of locking or target cycling.

Aim botters are technically cheaters and should be reported and banned from the game as it violates the TOS. You're making a comparison about combat mechanics in relation to cheaters, no offence or anything

but I get what you're saying

hleV

Perhaps the aim could affect the opponent's dodge RNG? Aim perfectly and the chance to dodge is 0%. Aim well enough and the chance to dodge is only 25%? Be enough off-target and the dodge probability is 50-75%? Don't aim and you miss 100%?

I'd prefer full action but I know a lot of people don't want that. Plus full action in big scale PvP will likely be more laggy than a hybrid. You also need decent framerate to aim properly.

TheDarkSorcerer

I'm so over these crutch tab target threads.

Mag7spy

Like i said in page one, have all 3 options with more rewarding aspects for action combat soft target lock and free aim with more dmg and range.

*edit Miss chance should apply to everything with stat sheets nothing is hitting 100% of the time unless you have the stats for it.

ItsmeToki

Mag7spy wrote: »

Like i said in page one, have all 3 options with more rewarding aspects for action combat soft target lock and free aim with more dmg and range.

*edit Miss chance should apply to everything with stat sheets nothing is hitting 100% of the time unless you have the stats for it.

Nah, thats no real option. Because you as a advocate to action combat are giving all other options restrictions except for your prefered action combat system.

There should be no disadvantages, if you are choosing one system over another. If you like action combat choose it, but dont expect to get some kind of goody cause you did so. This is going to be a MMO not a FPS game.

Mag7spy

ItsmeToki wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Like i said in page one, have all 3 options with more rewarding aspects for action combat soft target lock and free aim with more dmg and range.

*edit Miss chance should apply to everything with stat sheets nothing is hitting 100% of the time unless you have the stats for it.

Nah, thats no real option. Because you as a advocate to action combat are giving all other options restrictions expet your prefered action combat system.

There should be no disadvantages, if you are choosing one system over another. If you like action combat choose it, but dont expect to get some kind of goody cause you did so. This is going to be a MMO not a FPS game.

There should be 100% disadvantages and of course you get bonus for action combat, you need to aim your your shots. One relates to rng and dmg, while other relates to aim.

Yes you are right this is a mmorpg that is hybrid which means it has action combat as well. If you don't want to do free aim with the challenges that come with it, then go with a easier system that works for you.

If you are worried about a disadvantage of a player out skilling you, work towards getting better that is all.

ItsmeToki

I myself dont wanna play a game, where the outcome of a fight is decided by some degenerated headshotparty. Start using your brains to solve challenging situations instead of your eyes only...
A perfect example of how a MMO Combat System should never look like is in New World. The strategic approach to a fight is a joke. Everybody is sitting in the back shooting with their muskets accross the whole map killing a person from time to time via head shot and call that skill and good gameplay...

I play New World every day. I like OPR and Arenas to an extend (and am able to aim btw) but as I can compare the game to other MMOs I can see how bad of an influence its fighting system is to this kind of gamemodes.

Mag7spy

ItsmeToki wrote: »

I myself dont wanna play a game, where the outcome of a fight is decided by some degenerated headshotparty. Start using your brains to solve challenging situations instead of your eyes only...
A perfect example of how a MMO Combat System should never look like is in New World. The strategic approach to a fight is a joke. Everybody is sitting in the back shooting with there muskets accross the whole map killing a person from time to time via head shot and call that skill and good gameplay...

So what you are saying is someone is better then you skill wise and you can't compete with them.... You realize you can't have 100% of tab target skills in this game, the game is also going to have 75% action based skills if you want. Regardless of what you want the game is still going to be balanced around tab and action.

When you are playing action you are using your brain and your skill, stop trying to separate both them like they are two different games. I doubt there will be headshots in this game tbh though. Sitting back and shooting is the point of range so I'm not sure what you are trying to talk about there with both action and tab they will all be sitting in the back shooting you.

Why are you comparing hit scan muskets in ashes of creation? Ashes of creation and new world both have different combat so that point is a redhearing.

Brain and skill make the best game, I'd argue you aren't really using your brain in pvp if you are sitting on a wall toggling abilities 1-20 and everything is tab target and auto hitting who you are attacking lmao.

ItsmeToki

Mag7spy wrote: »

ItsmeToki wrote: »

I myself dont wanna play a game, where the outcome of a fight is decided by some degenerated headshotparty. Start using your brains to solve challenging situations instead of your eyes only...
A perfect example of how a MMO Combat System should never look like is in New World. The strategic approach to a fight is a joke. Everybody is sitting in the back shooting with there muskets accross the whole map killing a person from time to time via head shot and call that skill and good gameplay...

So what you are saying is someone is better then you skill wise and you can't compete with them.... You realize you can't have 100% of tab target skills in this game, the game is also going to have 75% action based skills if you want. Regardless of what you want the game is still going to be balanced around tab and action.

When you are playing action you are using your brain and your skill, stop trying to separate both them like they are two different games. I doubt there will be headshots in this game tbh though. Sitting back and shooting is the point of range so I'm not sure what you are trying to talk about there with both action and tab they will all be sitting in the back shooting you.

Why are you comparing hit scan muskets in ashes of creation? Ashes of creation and new world both have different combat so that point is a redhearing.

Brain and skill make the best game, I'd argue you aren't really using your brain in pvp if you are sitting on a wall toggling abilities 1-20 and everything is tab target and auto hitting who you are attacking lmao.

Thats not what I was saying. Please stop trying to degrade people just to make your point...
I wanna have skill shots in the game, not tab abilities as you can read in my first statement.
I dont wanna see arrows flying accross the whole battlegorund like in New World...

As I see your last sentences I doubt that you have ever played world of warcraft in high elo arenas

Mag7spy

ItsmeToki wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

ItsmeToki wrote: »

I myself dont wanna play a game, where the outcome of a fight is decided by some degenerated headshotparty. Start using your brains to solve challenging situations instead of your eyes only...
A perfect example of how a MMO Combat System should never look like is in New World. The strategic approach to a fight is a joke. Everybody is sitting in the back shooting with there muskets accross the whole map killing a person from time to time via head shot and call that skill and good gameplay...

So what you are saying is someone is better then you skill wise and you can't compete with them.... You realize you can't have 100% of tab target skills in this game, the game is also going to have 75% action based skills if you want. Regardless of what you want the game is still going to be balanced around tab and action.

When you are playing action you are using your brain and your skill, stop trying to separate both them like they are two different games. I doubt there will be headshots in this game tbh though. Sitting back and shooting is the point of range so I'm not sure what you are trying to talk about there with both action and tab they will all be sitting in the back shooting you.

Why are you comparing hit scan muskets in ashes of creation? Ashes of creation and new world both have different combat so that point is a redhearing.

Brain and skill make the best game, I'd argue you aren't really using your brain in pvp if you are sitting on a wall toggling abilities 1-20 and everything is tab target and auto hitting who you are attacking lmao.

Thats not what I was saying. Please stop trying to degrade people just to make your point...
I wanna have skill shots in the game, not tab abilities as you can read in my first statement.
I dont wanna see arrows flying accross the whole battlegorund like in New World...

As I see your last sentences I doubt that you have ever played world of warcraft in high elo arenas

You want to have skill shots great, so ban your basic attack be a skill shot. Else if you want to use tab target its not as effective as free aim or soft targeting.

I want to see arrows flying across the map, and if those arrows have 100% accuracy from tab target they shouldn't have the same range or same dmg since every arrow is landing on a person. Same goes for soft target as those arrows shouldnt miss but will take more effort to make sure you are looking who you want and hitting that person with a chance of missing sometimes. And f you want to got he sniper route where you have a way higher chance of missing that should be fine as well with the bonus's you get from it.

Your idea of making everything pointless and forcing tab target for basic attacks BY removing any incentive of skill for free aim or soft target sounds like poor design.

Degrade people lol? When you get called out and try to compare WoW arena when I don't care about WoW nor play it. Any reason for you to not want people that put skill into a shot and be rewarded sounds like more of a you issue that you can't handle either dodging it or using it.

You are also making assumptions you can hit anywhere on the battlefield with a arrow that will clearly have a limit on range or a more heavy drop off. You compared muskets to bows your whole previous points didn't make any sense.

Again nothing wrong arrows flying on the battlefield, that is a ranger class and mage class. Use your brain as you said to avoid or reduce the range damage with team work.

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