Mag7spy wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » I will point out that for those of you stating that ranged combat should be entirely skill based action combat aren't considering the massive population of MMO players who will either never play ranged classes or just won't play the game in general due to the skill learning curve or just the playstyle in general of action combat ranged attacks. Most MMO players dont want the FPS vibe that comes with action combat. And while I dont have a problem with it, it will likely hurt the games population considering its genre. That is why in my posted I had a option for every type. So it considers all play styles with benefits for each one. I saw, but that is a tall order to give intrepid by making them create several combat systems for each class. It also is going to be an illusion of choice if one system or the other gives a significant advantage over the other, whether it be tab targeting making it into easy mode consistent damage or if its action combat skillshots doing superior damage if youre skilled enough to land the hits. There is no real choice, whichever is more efficient at killing in the game is the one that will be prioritized. The one that should deal the most dmg is soft target and free aim. And the one that takes the most skill should be prioritized. Though how much the player can make use of their skill will add a learning curve and desire to improve as no one is going to have 100% accuracy all the time. And for people that want the easier option where they don't need to try for basic attacks it is there for them. Balance will be part of the job for design so it makes sense for normal player accuracy and dmg done, which will vary based on how much mobility is in the game and pve content. Ah, but your current argument is directly "harder=priority" which in essence is incorrect. The priority should be fluidity in combat. If nothing else, whats the harm in having tab targeting and action combat dealing the same damage, while tab has a %hit chance and action combat relies entirely on ones own ability to hit? Satisfies provision of both playstyles and maintains the idea that if youre skilled enough, you wont miss as much as the tab targeting system, therefore dealing more damage. Fluidity of combat I don't view as the same as balance. Between free aim, soft target and tab everything should be fluid (granted tab isn't hard to make fluid compared to action combat). Making sure those feel fluid is good but next step comes balancing of how those systems work. I do not like the miss% chance and 100% accuracy on free aim or soft target. As hybrid stats should be a prio as its a mmorpg and there shouldn't be a way around to have 100% hit chance. That is simply a way around to reduce dmg and it create artificial frustration when something misses because of a system you are using. Its much easier to adjust using a flat form of dmg that is more consistent. People using harder options might do less dmg in some instances and more in others. They will have something they can work towards improving and better players will deal more dmg and be rewarded for their skill. Overall I don't think its that big a deal for different choices and trade off this is just a basic attack after all we are talking about. We don't know what the ratio between basic attacks and player use of skill with how often things will be used. Balance is obviously a priority but if it doesnt feel fluid you wont have good combat. Balance comes after everything is made, fluidity is part of the process of making the combat. That being said, how do you balance a player who never misses? And how would you balance action combat ranged attacks against a raid boss? You wont miss a massive dragon so you would never use tab targeting in a raid if it does more damage, hence making tab targeting obsolete. I'm aware of that, balance is after making sure the system feels good, but I'm not talking about fluidity I'm talking about balance. If you are fighting a large target it will 100% be easier to aim and land your shots on it, doesn't mean adds wont be around as well. Even with it being easier for this certain mob some people still wouldn't want to do it because people don't want to put effort in or try to aim. So even having a easier target there is still some amount of effort that goes into attacking the mob. The game has to be balanced for both pve and pvp, and balancing around some mobs are large being a much smaller amount of content that the normal player is doing, isn't good enough to have damage be the same either way. If it was that big a deal, you can just adjust values and lower the damage increase on free and soft target lock technically. Though I don't think that is really needed, as balancing content around like 1-5% over a basic attack seems a bit unnecessary. I can see action based ranger skills dealing more dmg anyway over most tab target ones but that part is more so me just guessing..
Dolyem wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » I will point out that for those of you stating that ranged combat should be entirely skill based action combat aren't considering the massive population of MMO players who will either never play ranged classes or just won't play the game in general due to the skill learning curve or just the playstyle in general of action combat ranged attacks. Most MMO players dont want the FPS vibe that comes with action combat. And while I dont have a problem with it, it will likely hurt the games population considering its genre. That is why in my posted I had a option for every type. So it considers all play styles with benefits for each one. I saw, but that is a tall order to give intrepid by making them create several combat systems for each class. It also is going to be an illusion of choice if one system or the other gives a significant advantage over the other, whether it be tab targeting making it into easy mode consistent damage or if its action combat skillshots doing superior damage if youre skilled enough to land the hits. There is no real choice, whichever is more efficient at killing in the game is the one that will be prioritized. The one that should deal the most dmg is soft target and free aim. And the one that takes the most skill should be prioritized. Though how much the player can make use of their skill will add a learning curve and desire to improve as no one is going to have 100% accuracy all the time. And for people that want the easier option where they don't need to try for basic attacks it is there for them. Balance will be part of the job for design so it makes sense for normal player accuracy and dmg done, which will vary based on how much mobility is in the game and pve content. Ah, but your current argument is directly "harder=priority" which in essence is incorrect. The priority should be fluidity in combat. If nothing else, whats the harm in having tab targeting and action combat dealing the same damage, while tab has a %hit chance and action combat relies entirely on ones own ability to hit? Satisfies provision of both playstyles and maintains the idea that if youre skilled enough, you wont miss as much as the tab targeting system, therefore dealing more damage. Fluidity of combat I don't view as the same as balance. Between free aim, soft target and tab everything should be fluid (granted tab isn't hard to make fluid compared to action combat). Making sure those feel fluid is good but next step comes balancing of how those systems work. I do not like the miss% chance and 100% accuracy on free aim or soft target. As hybrid stats should be a prio as its a mmorpg and there shouldn't be a way around to have 100% hit chance. That is simply a way around to reduce dmg and it create artificial frustration when something misses because of a system you are using. Its much easier to adjust using a flat form of dmg that is more consistent. People using harder options might do less dmg in some instances and more in others. They will have something they can work towards improving and better players will deal more dmg and be rewarded for their skill. Overall I don't think its that big a deal for different choices and trade off this is just a basic attack after all we are talking about. We don't know what the ratio between basic attacks and player use of skill with how often things will be used. Balance is obviously a priority but if it doesnt feel fluid you wont have good combat. Balance comes after everything is made, fluidity is part of the process of making the combat. That being said, how do you balance a player who never misses? And how would you balance action combat ranged attacks against a raid boss? You wont miss a massive dragon so you would never use tab targeting in a raid if it does more damage, hence making tab targeting obsolete.
Mag7spy wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » I will point out that for those of you stating that ranged combat should be entirely skill based action combat aren't considering the massive population of MMO players who will either never play ranged classes or just won't play the game in general due to the skill learning curve or just the playstyle in general of action combat ranged attacks. Most MMO players dont want the FPS vibe that comes with action combat. And while I dont have a problem with it, it will likely hurt the games population considering its genre. That is why in my posted I had a option for every type. So it considers all play styles with benefits for each one. I saw, but that is a tall order to give intrepid by making them create several combat systems for each class. It also is going to be an illusion of choice if one system or the other gives a significant advantage over the other, whether it be tab targeting making it into easy mode consistent damage or if its action combat skillshots doing superior damage if youre skilled enough to land the hits. There is no real choice, whichever is more efficient at killing in the game is the one that will be prioritized. The one that should deal the most dmg is soft target and free aim. And the one that takes the most skill should be prioritized. Though how much the player can make use of their skill will add a learning curve and desire to improve as no one is going to have 100% accuracy all the time. And for people that want the easier option where they don't need to try for basic attacks it is there for them. Balance will be part of the job for design so it makes sense for normal player accuracy and dmg done, which will vary based on how much mobility is in the game and pve content. Ah, but your current argument is directly "harder=priority" which in essence is incorrect. The priority should be fluidity in combat. If nothing else, whats the harm in having tab targeting and action combat dealing the same damage, while tab has a %hit chance and action combat relies entirely on ones own ability to hit? Satisfies provision of both playstyles and maintains the idea that if youre skilled enough, you wont miss as much as the tab targeting system, therefore dealing more damage. Fluidity of combat I don't view as the same as balance. Between free aim, soft target and tab everything should be fluid (granted tab isn't hard to make fluid compared to action combat). Making sure those feel fluid is good but next step comes balancing of how those systems work. I do not like the miss% chance and 100% accuracy on free aim or soft target. As hybrid stats should be a prio as its a mmorpg and there shouldn't be a way around to have 100% hit chance. That is simply a way around to reduce dmg and it create artificial frustration when something misses because of a system you are using. Its much easier to adjust using a flat form of dmg that is more consistent. People using harder options might do less dmg in some instances and more in others. They will have something they can work towards improving and better players will deal more dmg and be rewarded for their skill. Overall I don't think its that big a deal for different choices and trade off this is just a basic attack after all we are talking about. We don't know what the ratio between basic attacks and player use of skill with how often things will be used.
Dolyem wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » I will point out that for those of you stating that ranged combat should be entirely skill based action combat aren't considering the massive population of MMO players who will either never play ranged classes or just won't play the game in general due to the skill learning curve or just the playstyle in general of action combat ranged attacks. Most MMO players dont want the FPS vibe that comes with action combat. And while I dont have a problem with it, it will likely hurt the games population considering its genre. That is why in my posted I had a option for every type. So it considers all play styles with benefits for each one. I saw, but that is a tall order to give intrepid by making them create several combat systems for each class. It also is going to be an illusion of choice if one system or the other gives a significant advantage over the other, whether it be tab targeting making it into easy mode consistent damage or if its action combat skillshots doing superior damage if youre skilled enough to land the hits. There is no real choice, whichever is more efficient at killing in the game is the one that will be prioritized. The one that should deal the most dmg is soft target and free aim. And the one that takes the most skill should be prioritized. Though how much the player can make use of their skill will add a learning curve and desire to improve as no one is going to have 100% accuracy all the time. And for people that want the easier option where they don't need to try for basic attacks it is there for them. Balance will be part of the job for design so it makes sense for normal player accuracy and dmg done, which will vary based on how much mobility is in the game and pve content. Ah, but your current argument is directly "harder=priority" which in essence is incorrect. The priority should be fluidity in combat. If nothing else, whats the harm in having tab targeting and action combat dealing the same damage, while tab has a %hit chance and action combat relies entirely on ones own ability to hit? Satisfies provision of both playstyles and maintains the idea that if youre skilled enough, you wont miss as much as the tab targeting system, therefore dealing more damage.
Mag7spy wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » I will point out that for those of you stating that ranged combat should be entirely skill based action combat aren't considering the massive population of MMO players who will either never play ranged classes or just won't play the game in general due to the skill learning curve or just the playstyle in general of action combat ranged attacks. Most MMO players dont want the FPS vibe that comes with action combat. And while I dont have a problem with it, it will likely hurt the games population considering its genre. That is why in my posted I had a option for every type. So it considers all play styles with benefits for each one. I saw, but that is a tall order to give intrepid by making them create several combat systems for each class. It also is going to be an illusion of choice if one system or the other gives a significant advantage over the other, whether it be tab targeting making it into easy mode consistent damage or if its action combat skillshots doing superior damage if youre skilled enough to land the hits. There is no real choice, whichever is more efficient at killing in the game is the one that will be prioritized. The one that should deal the most dmg is soft target and free aim. And the one that takes the most skill should be prioritized. Though how much the player can make use of their skill will add a learning curve and desire to improve as no one is going to have 100% accuracy all the time. And for people that want the easier option where they don't need to try for basic attacks it is there for them. Balance will be part of the job for design so it makes sense for normal player accuracy and dmg done, which will vary based on how much mobility is in the game and pve content.
Dolyem wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » I will point out that for those of you stating that ranged combat should be entirely skill based action combat aren't considering the massive population of MMO players who will either never play ranged classes or just won't play the game in general due to the skill learning curve or just the playstyle in general of action combat ranged attacks. Most MMO players dont want the FPS vibe that comes with action combat. And while I dont have a problem with it, it will likely hurt the games population considering its genre. That is why in my posted I had a option for every type. So it considers all play styles with benefits for each one. I saw, but that is a tall order to give intrepid by making them create several combat systems for each class. It also is going to be an illusion of choice if one system or the other gives a significant advantage over the other, whether it be tab targeting making it into easy mode consistent damage or if its action combat skillshots doing superior damage if youre skilled enough to land the hits. There is no real choice, whichever is more efficient at killing in the game is the one that will be prioritized.
Mag7spy wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » I will point out that for those of you stating that ranged combat should be entirely skill based action combat aren't considering the massive population of MMO players who will either never play ranged classes or just won't play the game in general due to the skill learning curve or just the playstyle in general of action combat ranged attacks. Most MMO players dont want the FPS vibe that comes with action combat. And while I dont have a problem with it, it will likely hurt the games population considering its genre. That is why in my posted I had a option for every type. So it considers all play styles with benefits for each one.
Dolyem wrote: » I will point out that for those of you stating that ranged combat should be entirely skill based action combat aren't considering the massive population of MMO players who will either never play ranged classes or just won't play the game in general due to the skill learning curve or just the playstyle in general of action combat ranged attacks. Most MMO players dont want the FPS vibe that comes with action combat. And while I dont have a problem with it, it will likely hurt the games population considering its genre.
Mag7spy wrote: » A person looking at numbers doesn't understand the effort that goes into landing hits on a moving target that has evasion skills, most people will do tab because of ease or because it will do more dmg for them.
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » A person looking at numbers doesn't understand the effort that goes into landing hits on a moving target that has evasion skills, most people will do tab because of ease or because it will do more dmg for them. If tab does more damage for them, it's because they have the skills required to excel at tab target. Being able to internalize many timers and such (assuming an overly simple tab target), or being able to reassess the situation on the fly, without missing a beat, all while internalizing many timers and such (a more complex tab target game). Not all people have those skills, and that's fine. Those people can resort to the base reflex skills instead.
Mag7spy wrote: » We aren't really talking about skills we are talking only about the basic attack. So akin to the basic attack they showed with the sword and daggers.
Mag7spy wrote: » I feel like ashes is going to have a basic attack though, did mages have a basic attack in the alpha 2?
falcorpix wrote: » You do realize that action combat can have all the intricacies that tab has ("internalizing many timers and such")
Noaani wrote: » falcorpix wrote: » You do realize that action combat can have all the intricacies that tab has ("internalizing many timers and such") Sure it can. And tab can require the same level of twitch skill as action. I mean, neither of them actually DO either of these things, but both are technically capable. When talking generalizations about either action or tab, you talk about, well, generalizations. You talk about the differences in each combat system and what that forces on to the content - you dont bitch and moan about what they "could" do.
Solvryn wrote: » It takes more to aim freely than tab. There’s just more to it. That said I’m opposed to offensive abilities being tab, if you can’t aim get aimlabs.
Mag7spy wrote: » Tab does not require the same twitch level as action combat x.x. Can we please be realistic.
Mag7spy wrote: » needing 0 control on camera, 0 tracking, having all your moves aim for you, not needing to dodge physically. Tab style camera alone is not made for twitch combat, its a reason why action combat needs a certain kind of camera.
Mag7spy wrote: » Find me a video where you are doing this in tab target.
Mag7spy wrote: » You can see the huge difference needed in tab target, that ninja in iframe fighting other iframes barely having frames to hit each other or cc and constantly attacking. It makes tab target look like slow motion.
Mag7spy wrote: » Find me a video where you are doing this in tab target. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAkTaiR-IeM
Mag7spy wrote: » You can see the huge difference needed in tab target, that ninja in iframe fighting other iframes barely having frames to hit each other or cc and constantly attacking. It makes tab target look like slow motion.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q6THOFLlEA
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Tab does not require the same twitch level as action combat x.x. Can we please be realistic. My post was in regards to what can be. In the same way tab *can* have many cooldown times players need to internalize, action "can" have a need for high twitch skill. Neither games really do this, but they *can*. Mag7spy wrote: » needing 0 control on camera, 0 tracking, having all your moves aim for you, not needing to dodge physically. Tab style camera alone is not made for twitch combat, its a reason why action combat needs a certain kind of camera. Well, that is an exhaustive list of everything in a game that could ever require twitch skill. Now, the above line is sarcasm, I assume you picked up on that. Mag7spy wrote: » Find me a video where you are doing this in tab target. I thought you had moved on from judging a games combat system playability based on how it looks. Guess not. Mag7spy wrote: » You can see the huge difference needed in tab target, that ninja in iframe fighting other iframes barely having frames to hit each other or cc and constantly attacking. It makes tab target look like slow motion. Sure, some tab target is slow. But combat in Tera (as mentioned by the poster below you) makes tab target games look turbo charged.
