Action Combat for meele classes, tab targeting for ranged classes

What do you guys prefer, cross aiming or tab targeting for ranged dps classes?
Furthermore would you like to see different approaches with different classes?
EG:
- Ranged agility based classes (like hunters) -> Action Combat (Cross aim) with basic attacks
- Ranged intelligence based classes (like mages) --> Tab Targeting with basic attacks + skill shot abilities

Since with mage classes the core gameplay is to land your abilities (where the most dmg comes from), i think tab targeting for your basic attacks should be fine. The skill with intelligence based classes shouldnt be measured by what player has the best aim in the game.
It should be measured by the tactical use of your set of abilities and by landing those. IMO

But there should be room for players, who come from fps games, as well. They should be able to show their skill and beeing rewarded in fights too e.g. by having a good aim. I dont know the exact numbers but with my knowlege from other games like New World I can imagine that those fps oriented players like are choosing classes with bows, gunpowder weappons, etc.

So why dont we do cross aiming your basic attacks for those agility based classes and tab targeting your basic attacks for intelligence based classes?

Since we are talking about two different approaches of dmg output you would have the advantage of adjusting the dmg output of the classes individually when balancing the classes overall. From my point of view this would be a better solution for the balacing overall rather than giving people the choice of swapping between action and tabtargeting with any ranged dps class.

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Ludullu

mcstackerson wrote: »

Do you have a video the shows off the targeting you are talking about?

Sadly not really. The more videos I watch, the more I think that I was either in a bubble within a bubble that had hardcorer players than the usual masses or that I'm just so deep in nostalgia that I'm completely misremembering how the combat truly was. The former is kinda untestable and the latter would take me several weeks of hardcore grinding on a new server to really figure out if I'm remembering my gameplay correctly. But I don't have the energy to grind L2 that much right now

Mag7spy

Azherae wrote: »

I really don't feel like getting into yet another one of these, but just in case my understanding or opinion matters.

BDO is actually still the hardest, Mag is right.

BDO just has a gentle 'learning curve' for more casual players, for the exact reason that we are discussing in general. Most players actually cannot do this at the level required and so the game simply makes it so that you don't have to for about 90% of its PvE.

Know that I say this not as a fan of the game, nor even of its specific form of Combat, I definitely expect to prefer what Ashes does, but bearing in mind that in almost all these cases, PvP is the main thing being referred to (the number of people who could code a scaling PvE encounter in proper Action Combat in this industry can't be that high, but I hear some are at Intrepid so yay!).

I assure those of you who have not played 'full' BDO that the mechanical depth and requirements of the game increase very fast in the PvE encounters that actually get close to PvP.

Are they good/fun/fair encounters? Not claiming that (except Katzvariak). But they are definitely 'similar or higher in difficulty relative to the vast majority of FPS and similar games'.

But don't take my word for it, you can level to 60 in BDO in 3 hours if you use their giant piles of catchup mechanics, autorun options, EXP boosts, and so on. At which point you can go check literally all of it yourself if you actually care.

Or if someone thinks combat is easy @Dygz you can do 0 grinding, log onto the game make a trial character that starts max level and has all the gear and we can do some pvp and see if its easy or not.

Free character, free gear, no grind, just pvp combat

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Do you have a video the shows off the targeting you are talking about?

Sadly not really. The more videos I watch, the more I think that I was either in a bubble within a bubble that had hardcorer players than the usual masses or that I'm just so deep in nostalgia that I'm completely misremembering how the combat truly was. The former is kinda untestable and the latter would take me several weeks of hardcore grinding on a new server to really figure out if I'm remembering my gameplay correctly. But I don't have the energy to grind L2 that much right now

Honestly overall its not a big deal we all have are moments in the past, i had plenty of fun pvp in tab target games as well. Right now im on someone ass for saying BDO takes no skill and i want to see them pvp lmao. I had enough text talk i want to see a fight.

Azherae

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Do you have a video the shows off the targeting you are talking about?

Sadly not really. The more videos I watch, the more I think that I was either in a bubble within a bubble that had hardcorer players than the usual masses or that I'm just so deep in nostalgia that I'm completely misremembering how the combat truly was. The former is kinda untestable and the latter would take me several weeks of hardcore grinding on a new server to really figure out if I'm remembering my gameplay correctly. But I don't have the energy to grind L2 that much right now

Honestly overall its not a big deal we all have are moments in the past, i had plenty of fun pvp in tab target games as well. Right now im on someone ass for saying BDO takes no skill and i want to see them pvp lmao. I had enough text talk i want to see a fight.

This isn't valid though.

Because the part of BDO that Dygz understands does not require skill. You can agree with that, right?

BDO PvE does not remotely take any skill to actually defeat enemies at the recommended AP levels on the map until at BEST Pila Ku Jail (or if you try to run new Basilisk Den solo on a low mobility class I GUESS?)

Which means the most you can do is level up to unlock Rift Bosses and test your skill on those, but those are Solo, Optional, and in no way connected to any story or any RP by the game, you have to come up with that yourself.

I'm not saying Dygz never participated in these, maybe Dygz also finds Ahib Griffon and Dastard Bheg to be 'just a hack and slash encounter', but even if you could get 'Dygz PvP video' all it would tell you is what Dygz already tells everyone about any PvP skills or approaches.

Or maybe it would consist if Dygz bodying all comers because if you pay close attention, Dygz has never implied 'I have difficulty with these things', just 'I don't like them'.

CROW3

Mag7spy wrote: »

The point of action isn't to make it exclusive and as hard as possible but to have more curves of skill available for players. It should be accessible and fair, it doesn't need to be you missed a pixel on hitting someone before your aim was slightly off like you are using a sniper or something. It just needs to have a nice skill curve to it and is fun and immersive.

Getting into some specifics - here are some examples that come to mind.

- Neverwinter: I have a LMB/RMB assignment that I can make, which is directed to either my reticle target, or my locked target (if it's 180 degrees in front of me) - but where that projectile hits is totally irrelevant, it's reasonable to see a crit as representing a head shot.
- AC: Odyssey/ESO/MO2: It matters where I (the player) literally aims my shot on my target (FPS style), here pixels can matter (depending on hit box). But it's much more complex when it comes to ping and managing distance (especially with archery having a minimum range). All of these games have a concept of bow draw as well - which is another issue in and of itself.

Does it make most sense for bows to have a player draw action (e.g. ESO) or a timed cooldown (NWO) to space shots out?

mcstackerson

CROW3 wrote: »

Does it make most sense for bows to have a player draw action (e.g. ESO) or a timed cooldown (NWO) to space shots out?

I like that feeling of bow draw but also think we could have both. Crossbows could be cooldown and normal bows be draw. If people don't like that then i'd think you could separate bows into short vs long bows and have one use draw.

Azherae

CROW3 wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

The point of action isn't to make it exclusive and as hard as possible but to have more curves of skill available for players. It should be accessible and fair, it doesn't need to be you missed a pixel on hitting someone before your aim was slightly off like you are using a sniper or something. It just needs to have a nice skill curve to it and is fun and immersive.

Getting into some specifics - here are some examples that come to mind.

- Neverwinter: I have a LMB/RMB assignment that I can make, which is directed to either my reticle target, or my locked target (if it's 180 degrees in front of me) - but where that projectile hits is totally irrelevant, it's reasonable to see a crit as representing a head shot.
- AC: Odyssey/ESO/MO2: It matters where I (the player) literally aims my shot on my target (FPS style), here pixels can matter (depending on hit box). But it's much more complex when it comes to ping and managing distance (especially with archery having a minimum range). All of these games have a concept of bow draw as well - which is another issue in and of itself.

Does it make most sense for bows to have a player draw action (e.g. ESO) or a timed cooldown (NWO) to space shots out?

I think the last time we had this discussion, we had reached the point of 'the soft lock is useful as a counter to ping issues', and pixel level fire accuracy is less optimal.

If I only have to line up a shot, the exact position of the opponent on my screen to me can be 'correct', my opponent might have 'stopped moving' on their own side, but will still be within the range of the soft lock, unless they used a high-mobility ability before I fired.

In a Hybrid system, particularly one that we can speculate on from what we know so far (Out of Range indicators from Alpha-1, hitboxes shown on the Hammer and Whirlwind skills in recent), the high mobility effect will indeed dodge this even if you are Tab Targeted, so it doesn't matter.

I am expecting bow draw and charge times to be a thing, barring the unintuitive issues they cause that are sometimes tweaked in games for the uninitiated.

CROW3

mcstackerson wrote: »

I like that feeling of bow draw but also think we could have both. Crossbows could be cooldown and normal bows be draw. If people don't like that then i'd think you could separate bows into short vs long bows and have one use draw.

I go back and forth on this. On the one hand, I totally agree on the psychological satisfaction on bow draw and release. It's just fun - particularly when I have initiative (i.e. ambushing that helpless elf). What I don't like is how this feels in fast-paced encounters when balance between melee strikes, traps, and mobility to get past the minimum distance threshold.

In this case, I'd rather just have my LMB fire whatever shot with a calculated timer spacing those shots out. This is how NWO works (and WoW pretty much), and allows a character with a stronger ranged build to maximize their spec (instead of it being front loaded then you're downshifting to melee). This timer could also be impacted by skill / abilities / spec / buffs - doesn't have to be the same for everyone.

Azherae wrote: »

I think the last time we had this discussion, we had reached the point of 'the soft lock is useful as a counter to ping issues', and pixel level fire accuracy is less optimal.

If I only have to line up a shot, the exact position of the opponent on my screen to me can be 'correct', my opponent might have 'stopped moving' on their own side, but will still be within the range of the soft lock, unless they used a high-mobility ability before I fired.

Yeah, I'm in between. I like having the 'soft lock' (i.e. reticle over my target) and hard-lock (basically actiony tab), just gives me the most number of options given the spectrum of encounters.

Mag7spy

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Do you have a video the shows off the targeting you are talking about?

Sadly not really. The more videos I watch, the more I think that I was either in a bubble within a bubble that had hardcorer players than the usual masses or that I'm just so deep in nostalgia that I'm completely misremembering how the combat truly was. The former is kinda untestable and the latter would take me several weeks of hardcore grinding on a new server to really figure out if I'm remembering my gameplay correctly. But I don't have the energy to grind L2 that much right now

Honestly overall its not a big deal we all have are moments in the past, i had plenty of fun pvp in tab target games as well. Right now im on someone ass for saying BDO takes no skill and i want to see them pvp lmao. I had enough text talk i want to see a fight.

This isn't valid though.

Because the part of BDO that Dygz understands does not require skill. You can agree with that, right?

BDO PvE does not remotely take any skill to actually defeat enemies at the recommended AP levels on the map until at BEST Pila Ku Jail (or if you try to run new Basilisk Den solo on a low mobility class I GUESS?)

Which means the most you can do is level up to unlock Rift Bosses and test your skill on those, but those are Solo, Optional, and in no way connected to any story or any RP by the game, you have to come up with that yourself.

I'm not saying Dygz never participated in these, maybe Dygz also finds Ahib Griffon and Dastard Bheg to be 'just a hack and slash encounter', but even if you could get 'Dygz PvP video' all it would tell you is what Dygz already tells everyone about any PvP skills or approaches.

Or maybe it would consist if Dygz bodying all comers because if you pay close attention, Dygz has never implied 'I have difficulty with these things', just 'I don't like them'.

If you are only doing pve you are not understanding BDO, but his view point had no nuance to it he simply stated bdo has no skill. If you are going to give a strong opinion at least detail what are you talking about with the game , but i get the vibe it doesn't matter from it there is no trying to understand its simply his view point and that is the only thing that matters.

BDO is meant to be a pvp game, if you are talking about mechanics for the game and the combat taking skill, you need to have done pvp really. Unsure why he is saying weirdly wrong information on the game if he didn't even try to play it longer then he did, and saying it like its fact.

Mag7spy

CROW3 wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

The point of action isn't to make it exclusive and as hard as possible but to have more curves of skill available for players. It should be accessible and fair, it doesn't need to be you missed a pixel on hitting someone before your aim was slightly off like you are using a sniper or something. It just needs to have a nice skill curve to it and is fun and immersive.

Getting into some specifics - here are some examples that come to mind.

- Neverwinter: I have a LMB/RMB assignment that I can make, which is directed to either my reticle target, or my locked target (if it's 180 degrees in front of me) - but where that projectile hits is totally irrelevant, it's reasonable to see a crit as representing a head shot.
- AC: Odyssey/ESO/MO2: It matters where I (the player) literally aims my shot on my target (FPS style), here pixels can matter (depending on hit box). But it's much more complex when it comes to ping and managing distance (especially with archery having a minimum range). All of these games have a concept of bow draw as well - which is another issue in and of itself.

Does it make most sense for bows to have a player draw action (e.g. ESO) or a timed cooldown (NWO) to space shots out?

NWO is fine you basically just shot near your target and the arrow moves towards it for some shots. You should 100% be able to draw your bow and hold it longer which helps prevent spam shots and makes your aim more meaningful for more free aim. Since that creates a kind of time sink it will stop people from trying to spam long range shots constantly

Overall this is just basic attacks, they should be made to be fun(balanced, fluid, etc), you are going to have like a bunch of abilities to use as well or use most the time depending on how cooldowns are and all.

Dygz

Azherae wrote: »

Because the part of BDO that Dygz understands does not require skill. You can agree with that, right?

It all takes skill.
It's just different skills.
The skills you use for cross-country are not the same skills you use for sprinting or for hurdles or for relay racing. If you try to use your sprinting skills for cross-country, you will likely not do well. If you try to use your cross-country skills for sprinting, you will likely not do well.
And, at the end of the day, it comes down to preference - not what is objectively better than the other or which takes more skill.

The skills that you use to be an accomplished figure skater are not the sae skills you use to be an accomplished hockey skater. Both take skill.

BDO combat is great for a Hack & Slash. That combat is not great for an RPG. Just like I'm not going to use figure skating techniques to try to play hockey.

It's all skill. Just different skills.
At the end of the day, it comes down to preference.
Ashes has both Tab Target and Action Combat.
We will have to see which is more popular. It's not just a matter of how many players use Action Combat but also how often individuals rely on Action Combat.
We won't know that until we test it.

Mag7spy

Combat doesn't decide what is a rpg...a rpg can have any kind of combat. What crack are you smoking?

Dygz

Combat partially decides what is an RPG - but more importantly - some forms of combat are detrimental for the RP parts of an MMORPG especially, as well as for an RPG, in general.
Kickball can be fun, but not really if what you want to do is hit a ball with a bat. The type of ball is important - even if much of the rest of the game is similar.

CROW3

Mag7spy wrote: »

You should 100% be able to draw your bow and hold it longer which helps prevent spam shots and makes your aim more meaningful for more free aim. Since that creates a kind of time sink it will stop people from trying to spam long range shots constantly

In that system, what happens if I just click the LMB once? Does my shot reach the target or does the arrow hit the ground 3 feet in front of me? Does it hit with x% power, but if I hold down the LMB to 'charge' the shot does it hit with y(x%)?

Time sinks in ranged combat need to be really carefully balanced with a minimum range distance. Too much of a sink and you basically have a one shot weapon and only when you have initiative.

Mag7spy

You are making up weird stories on what can be a rpg....You can have 0 combat and its a rpg, i can be a shooter, sports game, hack and slash.

The person that wants to rp the most and views their characters as different can't see combat isn't what makes something a rpg? I think you are just stubborn and try to create weird serious where you can view yourself as right even if you are lying to yourself.

Anything can be a rpg as long as their are rpg elements. What games a good game and rpg is up to the type of game it is trying to be. What makes a good rpg isn't combat, combat is something that lacks in most rpgs. If you are going to debate this im not going to be jumping on that I just can't believe some of the things you say.....If i played cyberpunk for the gun play it would not have been the best game. I just hope this is a troll.

Dygz

No...if the game has 0 combat, that is probably a Life Sim; not an RPG.
Type of combat is part of what determines whether a game is an RPG, an FPS, a Battle Royale or a Sim.

Mag7spy

CROW3 wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

You should 100% be able to draw your bow and hold it longer which helps prevent spam shots and makes your aim more meaningful for more free aim. Since that creates a kind of time sink it will stop people from trying to spam long range shots constantly

In that system, what happens if I just click the LMB once? Does my shot reach the target or does the arrow hit the ground 3 feet in front of me? Does it hit with x% power, but if I hold down the LMB to 'charge' the shot does it hit with y(x%)?

Time sinks in ranged combat need to be really carefully balanced with a minimum range distance. Too much of a sink and you basically have a one shot weapon and only when you have initiative.

I'd never do it like that, the normal range combat would be balanced around a range where you are trying to hit your target (normal combat range). The charge one is for more power and longer distances. If there is ever a action that doesn't do anything like landing a arrow 3 feet in front of you, that shouldn't be in a game. The mind set is I have my normal shot that I can rely on and is good for most situations, but then i have a charge shot for long range and slightly more dmg.

Highest dps would be normal shots, as charge shots are more for starting a encounter, longer range fights, or up to however the player wants to do it.

Elder

Dygz wrote: »

No...if you have 0 combat, that is probably a life sim; not an RPG.

That's a pretty narrow mindset. I've recently been playing a few story driven RPGs without any violence or combat.

CROW3

Mag7spy wrote: »

I'd never do it like that, the normal range combat would be balanced around a range where you are trying to hit your target (normal combat range). The charge one is for more power and longer distances. If there is ever a action that doesn't do anything like landing a arrow 3 feet in front of you, that shouldn't be in a game. The mind set is I have my normal shot that I can rely on and is good for most situations, but then i have a charge shot for long range and slightly more dmg.

Highest dps would be normal shots, as charge shots are more for starting a encounter, longer range fights, or up to however the player wants to do it.

Ok - so snap-shots would be in (a quick tap on the LMB) at 100% to the target (locked or soft) up to max range of the weapon? If I hold the LMB for some period of time (I imagine there's like a metered ceiling) I would fire a shot with say 300% to the target up to max range?

^ and these are basic ranged attacks...

I think that would work with my playstyle. That would free up some muscle memory for managing cc / active skills / and a RMB for maybe a zoom function.

hm... if RMB had a zoom feature (might be mod+RMB) would that add extra dmg to the basic attack?

Mag7spy

CROW3 wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

I'd never do it like that, the normal range combat would be balanced around a range where you are trying to hit your target (normal combat range). The charge one is for more power and longer distances. If there is ever a action that doesn't do anything like landing a arrow 3 feet in front of you, that shouldn't be in a game. The mind set is I have my normal shot that I can rely on and is good for most situations, but then i have a charge shot for long range and slightly more dmg.

Highest dps would be normal shots, as charge shots are more for starting a encounter, longer range fights, or up to however the player wants to do it.

Ok - so snap-shots would be in (a quick tap on the LMB) at 100% to the target (locked or soft) up to max range of the weapon? If I hold the LMB for some period of time (I imagine there's like a metered ceiling) I would fire a shot with say 300% to the target up to max range?

^ and these are basic ranged attacks...

I think that would work with my playstyle. That would free up some muscle memory for managing cc / active skills / and a RMB for maybe a zoom function.

hm... if RMB had a zoom feature (might be mod+RMB) would that add extra dmg to the basic attack?

Exactly what I would think on that, and they would balance out on time to hold and range given for whatever works for the game. So people can't spam infinite range and quickly it just be a way to balance that out if its a problem.

I'm not sure on much zoom, i could see for charge shots you get a little bit of zoom to help with the effect but it still be up to your skill on landing the shots. And helps keep it more immersive and not like a fps like you have a scope or something. But then maybe maybe the weapon tree could have even more higher zoom and it slows down how fast your charge shots are but gives you a bit more dmg.

Lots of head cannon i could do. And for people that like that play style its there for them, a few guildies of mine would like that personally since it is more fun for them. Though its hard to get people to comment on the forums lol.

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