My Dream for Crafting...

Everyone who is invested in AoC knows that one of its main foundational pillars is player crafting. It is one of the reasons I am very excited about Ashes. The thought of crafting, shipping goods, and protecting those goods in epic PvP combat fills me with equal parts joy and bloodlust.

I love crafting in MMOs and have spent many 100s of hours farming and crafting but one thing has always struck me as boring and lazy.

In almost all RPGs and MMOs I've played over the last two decades(too many), crafting has been the same for 20 years or more. The same cycle every time. Find items, click items in a menu, and wait for the item to craft. Collecting materials can be challenging and fun on occasion but usually, the crafting side of professions is boring non-gameplay. The only deterrent is it being mind-numbingly tedious. It makes me wonder what if crafting could be different, better, but how?

Imagine if crafting required skills beyond clicking the "create item" button. If there were sort of mini-games associated with each crafting skill. If certain crafting mini-games got very hard at a high level and only certain people on the server could manage to achieve a perfect craft based on their player skill. Sure almost everyone could make a decent piece of armor and you could grind to make great armor but "ArmorSmith McBadass" can just really get it maxed out because all he does is smith armor and is damn good at it.

I'd imagine blacksmithing would be about keeping the fire hot enough, heating the metal to the right temp to strike certain stats into it(+crit but -durability if it's super hot or w/e), and cooling the metal at the right time. I'm no smithing expert but I think a general idea is there.

I think it would add a very nice depth of gameplay and give people something they can just relax in town and grind some crafting skills that are actually fun and give players a chance to shine.

I don't think it's within Ashes of Creation's scope at this point because they are already tackling so many issues and pioneering new technologies but I have had this idea for a few years and would love to see it come to life.

What do you guys think about an active mini-game style crafting vs menu crafting?

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CROW3

I prefer a more involved crafting system. Honestly, my personal hope is that Ashes starts with some of the core crafting pillars from Vanguard:SoH. It’s been what? 19 years? That system still stands out as my favorite. It was mini-game based, had outstanding interdependencies, and a deep component tree.

The menu tree system isn’t very satisfying, but it supports crafting systems that have a glut of resources (such as WoW, GW2, and Albion).

What gives me some hope is that Ashes will have a limited amount of material, which in turn will make the processing / crafting systems more in-depth and meaningful.

TheSgtPepper

I've never heard of Vanguard:SoH but it's great to know there is precedent for that type of system already in place.

The closest thing I've experienced to what I am thinking of is the Fable series. Just struck me as so funny to be a deadly sellsword crushing bandit camps but also exceptionally good at making pies. Then you realize you can make a lot more selling these money-making pies so you start making pie and then buying real estate and a few hours later you look down and just think wtf how did I end up here owning half the town and not killing anyone all afternoon? haha, good times.

If that could be captured at the scale of a modern MMO that would be incredible

Ludullu

Fuck it. I suggest having a whole OSU track playthrough for each instance of crafting. No matter what you're crafting you gotta get a perfect score on some random OSU track. And the higher in crafting lvl you go, the harder the tracks. I think that would be the perfect test of skill and would definitely not get annoying to do each time you craft some small piece of material

Azraya

My dude, i dont give a hoot about crafting, I just want to pvp.
I'll gladly buy your crafted goods and protect your caravans tho!
i need you crafters to keep me up on supplies.

CROW3

In V: SoH there were 3 distinct paths: crafter, adventurer, and diplomat. Each had their own leveling tree, so you could be a level 50 crafter and a level 1 adventurer, without having to kill a mob.

What I remember of blacksmithing was that each component had a categorical process with multiple steps. Each step took reagents and made a skill check. The higher quality material and reagents the wider the tolerance for errors in each minigame. The higher your skill the easier each minigame became. It was hours and hours of fun. Lots of notes taken for that game.

TheSgtPepper

NiKr wrote: »

Fuck it. I suggest having a whole OSU track playthrough for each instance of crafting. No matter what you're crafting you gotta get a perfect score on some random OSU track. And the higher in crafting lvl you go, the harder the tracks. I think that would be the perfect test of skill and would definitely not get annoying to do each time you craft some small piece of material

Eh, I'm not really into making it tedious. I would consider it like average difficulty to get 90-95% craft and then very hard to get the final few. You can make auto-craft as well that is like 80% craft. I just think most MMOs where no effort goes in is 1.) boring to craft and 2.) the market gets flooded with identical items and the value drops to vendor price almost instantly. This would help with those issues. I have no problem with an auto-craft button if people are lazy.

TheSgtPepper

CROW3 wrote: »

In V: SoH there were 3 distinct paths: crafter, adventurer, and diplomat. Each had their own leveling tree, so you could be a level 50 crafter and a level 1 adventurer, without having to kill a mob.

What I remember of blacksmithing was that each component had a categorical process with multiple steps. Each step took reagents and made a skill check. The higher quality material and reagents the wider the tolerance for errors in each minigame. The higher your skill the easier each minigame became. It was hours and hours of fun. Lots of notes taken for that game.

That sounds like an amazing crafting system. I'm going to have to look this game up.

TheSgtPepper

Azraya wrote: »

My dude, i dont give a hoot about crafting, I just want to pvp.
I'll gladly buy your crafted goods and protect your caravans tho!
i need you crafters to keep me up on supplies.

I love to PvP too I am gonna be spread thin haha! Can't wait for epic Caravan PvP and Naval battles

CROW3

TheSgtPepper wrote: »

That sounds like an amazing crafting system. I'm going to have to look this game up.

It was. Vanguard overall had good design bones, but it was plagued by a series of setbacks. Sigil (the original studio) was tight on funding and was subsequently bought by Microsoft. Unfortunately, while Sigil thought they were getting deeper pockets, MS had focused its bet on a small shooter IP acquired win their purchase of Bungie studios called Halo.

Keith Parkinson’s death was also devastating for their art direction. Overall, it sort of lumbered into production for a relatively tortured few years before fading into almost complete obscurity in the one-two punch of EQ2 and WoW releasing back to back in 2004.

Ludullu

TheSgtPepper wrote: »

Eh, I'm not really into making it tedious. I would consider it like average difficulty to get 90-95% craft and then very hard to get the final few. You can make auto-craft as well that is like 80% craft. I just think most MMOs where no effort goes in is 1.) boring to craft and 2.) the market gets flooded with identical items and the value drops to vendor price almost instantly. This would help with those issues. I have no problem with an auto-craft button if people are lazy.

This highly depends on how you balance the entire system. If you can make the final item better by minigaming each crafting step on the way to that final item - it's gonna be tedious. And I know for sure that top lvl guilds will require you to craft everything at highest possible lvl.

And if we consider 10 items per person (at the very least) per gear tier for 40 people in a guild (that is if the guild is the smallest possible and not a 300+ one) and god knows how many crafts per item - it all becomes very tedious very fast. And any smart guild would be giving all the crafting to one character because it would not only level up that crafter's lvl the fastest, but it would also be the safest way to not scammed by another guild crafter (on the off chance that those 40 people are not 100% safe).

And then you need to think about how you'd set up the system itself. Do you destroy the materials if the crafter fails the minigame? I'd assume no cause Steven wants crafting to be 100% safe and controlled. But then if failing the minigame gives a non-best version of the item or just doesn't craft at all - it's a waste of time and potentially resources. And both of those are super tedious to anyone who crafts more than once a day.

And depending on the minigame itself top lvl crafters might make some keyboard/mouse macros to just circumvent it. Yes, Intrepid prohibits that, but I doubt they'll be able to catch every single user. Or people will just find a way around it somehow (cause they always do).

CROW3

Guilds will funnel resources to designated crafters anyway because of how crafting mastery works. I think (total theory) the combination of limited resources and split between processing and crafting is going to make the system function much differently than WoW (and like minded games) where you’re crafting 20 copper gloves, then 20 copper boots, then 20 copper pants so you can finally make a copper sword.

Ashes will feel resource parched in comparison - which is why those green gatherers need to keep their eyes open and their blades sharp. 🤔

Ludullu

CROW3 wrote: »

Guilds will funnel resources to designated crafters anyway because of how crafting mastery works

And that is why I don't want minigames in crafting. Can't even imagine carfting hundreds and thousands of items through minigame

CROW3 wrote: »

Ashes will feel resource parched in comparison - which is why those green gatherers need to keep their eyes open and their blades sharp. 🤔

Yeah, it's gonna be interesting to see how they balance the rarity of all the resources. They need to find a very tight balance of "not too many, yet enough".

AidanKD

It's been covered with other comments, but the balance between minigames has to be how much it forces you to be engaged, if it's fun and if it's fulfilling.

WoW fishing is super simple, it's mundane but at the same time... it's fishing. And because you have to do so much of it to get what is usually one fish, I think it's fine. I think that if the reward is greater, then perhaps we can incorporate minigames. I.e. lets say you do net fishing, and maybe every 1/10 casts triggers a minigame where you have got a *big catch* with a chance for a bonus!

We know we will have fishing boats and big-game fishing which might be less of a minigame and a full on activity/feature. Like stalking the prey, setting out the best bait, equipping the right tools. Maybe launch the harpoon and having to actually practically fight it. That's how I see "end game" fishing though i think with fishing as an example, even at end game it should be competitive to still be able to do the relaxing fishing repetitively versus the big-scale fishing.

On the wider choice of life skills we expect, again it just depends what you are making and how often. I guess a minigame will either be very easy i.e. little RNG, or can be challenging and offers some RNG. is that RNG an enjoyable experience and is it more than just a time sink? I think if it's fun and enjoyable, yes. I think if it wastes time depending on how much you have to do, then no.

Gathering, I think is mostly fine to just be right click and take. I am definitely a fence sitter here I really can't make my mind up!

TheSgtPepper

NiKr wrote: »

This highly depends on how you balance the entire system. If you can make the final item better by minigaming each crafting step on the way to that final item - it's gonna be tedious. And I know for sure that top lvl guilds will require you to craft everything at highest possible lvl.

I think ideally the mini-games would only apply to crafting processes where the final product is made and never expanded on because as you point out that would become insanely tedious.

I would design the system in such a way that it rewards the same experience regardless of a higher success craft. I think you have a misconception that every player will be required to craft. Many players will never craft. I wouldn't use the top 1% of a game to design any system around, they will find a way to min-max the fun out of any and every possible scenario given the chance. A top guild will have a dedicated armor or weapon crafter to make everyone's gear because he or she is the best. In AoC, to my understanding, some of the best gear will be crafted and not bound to the player to allow for trading. Many players will never craft if that is the case.

NiKr wrote: »

And if we consider 10 items per person (at the very least) per gear tier for 40 people in a guild (that is if the guild is the smallest possible and not a 300+ one) and god knows how many crafts per item - it all becomes very tedious very fast. And any smart guild would be giving all the crafting to one character because it would not only level up that crafter's lvl the fastest, but it would also be the safest way to not scammed by another guild crafter (on the off chance that those 40 people are not 100% safe).

This assumes all gear is crafted which I do not believe is the case and that people would only wear perfect crafted gear instead of accepting the fact that a 93% piece is still a decent piece. Not everyone has the time to min-max every piece of gear to the fullest. Although a lot try few ever reach that goal.

If I were designing the system I wouldn't use the archaic design of past MMOs where you grind dozens of useless items to try and level the skill slowly and monotonously. Nor would I bind the items to the player requiring every player to grind the profession. The system I would try to implement would have a leveling aspect but much more gated by your player skill than tedious and boring grinding. I think players hit a "quit moment" a lot of times because they just invested 40 hours of grinding and the payout is very lackluster or they see a 40-hour wall in the form of leveling blacksmithing to get the weapon they want.

That being said there is no way to get around designating a single, skilled crafter over splitting the resources among everyone equally having them try to make their own. Smart Guilds do this.

NiKr wrote: »

And then you need to think about how you'd set up the system itself. Do you destroy the materials if the crafter fails the minigame? I'd assume no cause Steven wants crafting to be 100% safe and controlled. But then if failing the minigame gives a non-best version of the item or just doesn't craft at all - it's a waste of time and potentially resources. And both of those are super tedious to anyone who crafts more than once a day.

I would make the risk scale with the reward. Low-level stuff could be impossible to fail. The medium could fail but is hard to. Hard could fail if you made a few mistakes. Epic could fail if you made one mistake. I like risk for my reward but I do agree it feels bad to lose rare materials on a failed attempt but I think that is mostly because it is just an RNG chance with no control over the situation. If I could control it I would have player agency over the situation and I wouldn't feel as punished. Maybe there could be a semi-rare item to guarantee a free refund?

Not sure where the assumption that EVERYONE will craft and that it MUST be tedious. An item could take 4-8 seconds to craft but instead of a bar filling up you have to solve a simple puzzle or manage several meters or hit an object as fast as you can once it appears. Is it still super tedious to craft more than once a day?

In Classic WoW or its ilk, it was tedious because you had to sit at the table and click the button wait 4-sec repeat 30 times, do inventory management, get more resources from the bank or AH, and repeat the whole process 12 + times. Mind-numbing. Two + hours of non-gameplay IF you had all the material AND optimized the route.

NiKr wrote: »

And depending on the minigame itself top lvl crafters might make some keyboard/mouse macros to just circumvent it. Yes, Intrepid prohibits that, but I doubt they'll be able to catch every single user. Or people will just find a way around it somehow (cause they always do).

Sadly this will happen regardless of any system and any game. People will use RMT, Cheats, Hacks, Bots, anything they can use to get ahead. It's a sad reality for Online Gaming and it will likely never change.

Thanks for your responses man! I really like your counterpoints and it provides some great food for thought!

TheSgtPepper

AidanKD wrote: »

It's been covered with other comments, but the balance between minigames has to be how much it forces you to be engaged, if it's fun and if it's fulfilling.

WoW fishing is super simple, it's mundane but at the same time... it's fishing. And because you have to do so much of it to get what is usually one fish, I think it's fine. I think that if the reward is greater, then perhaps we can incorporate minigames. I.e. lets say you do net fishing, and maybe every 1/10 casts triggers a minigame where you have got a *big catch* with a chance for a bonus!

Fishing is definitely an interesting one! I would consider it a gathering profession rather than crafting but I think if I were to design a system for it the "mini-game" aspect would be very short and unintrusive. Something like the bobber going under the water a few times to indicate a nibble and then a splash to indicate when to reel it in. Maybe the splash size could be determined by the size and difficulty of the fish. Lots of things to consider.

I would say that with gathering and processing professions it would have to be as small of a "mini-game" as possible and occur organically without interrupting the player experience. I.E. You are chopping a tree and the first hit reveals a weak spot, hitting it again shrinks the weak spot, hitting it a third consecutive time cuts the tree down in 3 swings instead of 4 or 5. It also can only yield varying amounts of the resource it provides rather than increasing the quality.

AidanKD wrote: »

We know we will have fishing boats and big-game fishing which might be less of a minigame and a full on activity/feature. Like stalking the prey, setting out the best bait, equipping the right tools. Maybe launch the harpoon and having to actually practically fight it. That's how I see "end game" fishing though i think with fishing as an example, even at end game it should be competitive to still be able to do the relaxing fishing repetitively versus the big-scale fishing.

I hope that Big Game fishing will be a more involved and expanded form of inshore fishing and that you can get attacked by sea creatures so you need to be ready for a fight to get those big valuable fish from the deep.

I am so excited to get out on the waves in Vera and explore. I know Steven loved Archeage and they did an amazing job with their naval aspect. If they improve upon that we are in for a treat. I hope they use Tessendorf wave models etc.

AidanKD wrote: »

On the wider choice of life skills we expect, again it just depends what you are making and how often. I guess a minigame will either be very easy i.e. little RNG, or can be challenging and offers some RNG. is that RNG an enjoyable experience and is it more than just a time sink? I think if it's fun and enjoyable, yes. I think if it wastes time depending on how much you have to do, then no.

AidanKD wrote: »

Gathering, I think is mostly fine to just be right click and take. I am definitely a fence sitter here I really can't make my mind up!

Things like the ship, furniture, and house building might be too hard to design a lightweight, unintrusive, immersive minigame for. I struggle to even conceptualize one.

I like a little RNG in my games as long as I have player agency to affect the outcome in some way but I agree that timesinks are awful. I believe one of the main driving forces that have pushed players away from the MMO genre is the feeling of having your time wasted or "disrespected". Above all, a game should be fun and not waste your time pushing engagement metrics for stockholders.

I agree with Gathering and Processing not having the need to have a "Mini-game" but I do think something could be done with them to improve player experience like the woodcutting example I gave earlier.

GethOverlord

While I agree that with crafting being a core pillar it should be more than a couple of clicks to make what has been stated to be "the best gear in the game" (looking at you WoW legendaries -_-) I also think there's significant problems that can arise with having to do the same minigame over and over becoming just as tedious as sitting there and right clicking 300 times. The previous suggestion of having final items having a minigame associated with them makes the most sense, but I don't know how I'd feel about the quality of the final product being impacted by a minigame that I might just...mess up. People play tired, or aren't always expecting a pop-up, etc. If it saved you resources or gave it some cosmetic flair or something that won't affect its balance that would be my ideal.

On an semi related note I don't know what kind of minigame people are imagining for Animal Husbandry, but as a person that plans on that being my primary profession I would like it to be some kind of egg hatching or something. (Idk how it would work for mammals don't @ me XD)

neuroguy

Yeah I think if you can get better at crafting from experience (playing the mini-games enough times) would be great and the more you invest/progress in a particular crafting tree the more advantages you get in the mini-game (to essentially trivialize some parts of it so you don't want to kill yourself the 2000th time you play the game). I think there should be scaling difficulty in the mini-game for the final product such that a very powerful item would be harder and therefore the advantages you've accrued from investing in that crafting profession makes it more feasible. Essentially, the system should have the mini-game be challenging only for the better items you can craft if you invest in that profession. The above and beyond for me would be if the crafting mini-game involved new mechanics with higher rarity and the old mechanics for lesser items would become trivial for the 'experienced' crafter.

TheSgtPepper

GethOverlord wrote: »

While I agree that with crafting being a core pillar it should be more than a couple of clicks to make what has been stated to be "the best gear in the game" (looking at you WoW legendaries -_-) I also think there's significant problems that can arise with having to do the same minigame over and over becoming just as tedious as sitting there and right clicking 300 times. The previous suggestion of having final items having a minigame associated with them makes the most sense, but I don't know how I'd feel about the quality of the final product being impacted by a minigame that I might just...mess up. People play tired, or aren't always expecting a pop-up, etc. If it saved you resources or gave it some cosmetic flair or something that won't affect its balance that would be my ideal.

I'd design the system so that you always have the option to auto succeed for a mediocre result, ideally have a MUCH smaller amount of grinding and more purpose-driven crafting (crafting for friends, guild, fun, or personal improvement), and that's what makes you better.

I think in general having to make dozens of the same useless items to level a profession skill is non-gameplay and hurts the in-game economy.

I'd want player skill to be the barrier to entry for high-tier items. Instead of your Blacksmithing level artificially limiting you, it's your actual skill and what you are willing to risk losing is the limiting factor to craft high-tier items. I.E. you would make 5-10 poor-quality iron swords (or however many you want) because if you've never made a sword you'll want to know-how. Then once you have it down you use your enchanted steel to make the sword you want. Rather than clicking the button to make 20 poor-quality gloves to hit level 20 so now, you can click the button to make 20 pants, and finally, at level 40 you can make a sword you want (hard to follow how pants and gloves teach you to make swords).

GethOverlord wrote: »

On an semi related note I don't know what kind of minigame people are imagining for Animal Husbandry, but as a person that plans on that being my primary profession I would like it to be some kind of egg hatching or something. (Idk how it would work for mammals don't @ me XD)

Hahaha, this seems like it might be better to flesh this idea out in an NSFW Reddit thread. Jokes aside, I honestly haven't considered how it would apply to all of Ashes systems. Some seem very straightforward like Mining and Blacksmithing and others like Housing and Husbandry seem very difficult.

Great ideas and points, you definitely have given me something to think about.

Azherae

This adds neither depth of gameplay (because it is bottable and it is one of those things where distinguishing the type of bot that can do it from a perfect player is by definition close to impossible) nor direct interest (applying a repeating physical minigame instead of complex itemization is just making it demanding and for some people tedious on top of boring).

High level crafting can be made terrifyingly complicated by designed systems and creativity. The devs have so much more freedom to just use 'sequences and itemization' with some number tricks, for the same result (some people will 'bot' it either by making real bots or by 'becoming bot level at their execution') that you might as well go for complexity.

The question Intrepid will need to ask is mainly 'what will high level crafters want' and 'what to do about all the people who complain because high level crafting is actually hard and not just throwing time and resources at a problem'.

Because if they start doing things on the level of games that make you do real crafting, there will be lots of people like that.

TheSgtPepper

Azherae wrote: »

This adds neither depth of gameplay (because it is bottable and it is one of those things where distinguishing the type of bot that can do it from a perfect player is by definition close to impossible) nor direct interest (applying a repeating physical minigame instead of complex itemization is just making it demanding and for some people tedious on top of boring).

I have seen bots with such sophisticated scripting that they are completely unidentifiable as bots that complete the hardest content in the game. I feel that it's a disingenuous argument to say that botting is possible so this idea is DoA. If that were the case every single MMO should just close its doors.

I'm not sure why you believe complex itemization goes away or how you think itemization complexity would be affected in any way in this scenario.

I think people see "Mini-game" and think 30 seconds to 2 min of this thing they will have to do hundreds of times.

I think you are taking large assumptions claiming it adds no depth of gameplay(I believe this is objectively false because it in fact adds an entirely new gameplay element) or direct interest (bold to assume literally no one is interested in dynamic crafting when there are people in the thread discussing how much they enjoyed it in other titles).

In my ideal implementation, the crafter doesn't just craft dozens of the same item ever unless there is a demand and they want to. You would remove the need to grind levels ad noseeum to reach the ability to craft high-tier items and replace it with the difficulty of obtaining the material and the skill/risk of crafting. The "Mini-game" would take 2-6 seconds for low to mid ties 4-8 sec for high tier and 10-20 sec for highest in my mind. Also, a queue-able auto-complete that returns a mediocre guaranteed success.

Azherae wrote: »

High level crafting can be made terrifyingly complicated by designed systems and creativity. The devs have so much more freedom to just use 'sequences and itemization' with some number tricks, for the same result (some people will 'bot' it either by making real bots or by 'becoming bot level at their execution') that you might as well go for complexity.

I agree with you here that crafting systems can suffer from tons of issues and become bloated and tedious. Usually trying to be creative with a new idea has more drawbacks than it does positives. However, if you work out the drawbacks you can unleash a new innovative system.

Not following what you mean with " 'sequences and itemization' with some number tricks..." are you talking about implementing Math.Random() style RNG in crafting to determine quality values?

I think you are saying if the devs don't have to worry about implementing a new bloated crafting system they will have time to refine a more traditional crafting system and that will give them time to add interesting stats and build diversity. Let me know if I misinterpreted.

I think in the end statement you are saying that people using an active crafting system as I've proposed, will become so efficient at it or bot it anyways that it won't matter in the long run. I am not worried about the power of crafted items but trying to address how boring it is in MMOs to become the greatest blacksmith. I want crafting to be 1st monitor content and enjoyable not something boring you have to grind to min-max because item X is BiS and you are actively bored watching NetFlix.

Azherae wrote: »

The question Intrepid will need to ask is mainly 'what will high level crafters want' and 'what to do about all the people who complain because high level crafting is actually hard and not just throwing time and resources at a problem'.

Because if they start doing things on the level of games that make you do real crafting, there will be lots of people like that.

That's a great point and what I believe to be the crux of the situation.

There will be more people that just want good gear and to do the least amount of work possible than people who enjoy crafting the best gear. That's just how it is in life and in MMOs.

I've played with many of those types of players. The Raid-Logging RMT-er who just wants BiS and to play as little as possible and will swipe thousands to do it. It's a tough choice but as a player, I prefer the long road and not giving in to the whining. If the best items are the hardest to get then not everyone should have the chance to get them, just like how they are implementing flying.

Thanks for the comment and your take on it! Let me know if I misread anything or if you disagree.

Child Item