Vissox wrote: » I haven't played it yet, so I'm not drawing any sort of line yet. But steven asked for feedback about if we are going in a positive direction, and I'm just gonna say that every action combat korean type mmo I've ever played I have absolutely hated. I am tab target 100%, I think action combat only works from an overhead 3rd person perspective like diablo or league of legends or lost ark. I don't want to aim my ability's honestly, If I use a sword and get animation locked, and at the same time I'm required to dodge some kind of skill shot. I'm not gonna be happy. If I miss a spell as a spell caster because my mouse was 4 pixels off, same thing. Tab targeting let's me focus on what I think matters.
iccer wrote: » People say how BDO's combat is great and fluid, but I just can't see it. To me it's the opposite of fluid. You are constantly animation-locked, it just doesn't look or feel fluid, rather it feels clunky. It looks great, but it also looks and feels too spammy and flashy. Remember this, as I'll come back to it later.
iccer wrote: » Tab-targeting is simply more accessible to a wider-audience, it's more relaxing to play (doesn't mean it's boring).
iccer wrote: » There's a reason more action combat oriented games have moved away from the holy trinity, as implementing some of the roles (tanks and healers) isn't that easy or possible (correct me if I'm wrong) to do.
iccer wrote: » If the game is "boring" or if you feel that action-combat requires more skill than tab-target, it's probably due to the game's implementation of the combat, not due to tab-target itself.
iccer wrote: » I also prefer tab-targeting over action combat. Though I still think there's a place for skillshots, targeted AoE abilities and dodging certain mechanics. People say how BDO's combat is great and fluid, but I just can't see it. To me it's the opposite of fluid. You are constantly animation-locked, it just doesn't look or feel fluid, rather it feels clunky. It looks great, but it also looks and feels too spammy and flashy. Remember this, as I'll come back to it later. Others have mentioned this, and I'll add my thoughts as well. Action combat can and often does feel good to play, BUT... not all the time. Lost Ark is another great example. I liked the combat in solo PvE setting, even in raids (since there were only 8 people as far as I can remember), but I absolutely DESPISED the combat in PvP. Animation locks, constant CC and stagger, being juggled in the air like I'm playing Tekken or some other fighter game (idk I don't play these games). Overall it was an awful experience in PvP, even after learning the mechanics. It just wasn't fun to play. In raids that have a larger number of people (which AoC will have), as well as in large scale PvP (which AoC will also have), I just don't see full-on action combat working (and thankfully the game wont go in that direction). Action combat has its place, but for me its place is in single-player games, games that you play casually for an hour or 2 max or competitive games that have matches, rather than continuous open-world experience ( games like LoL, CS:GO, etc.). To me, MMORPGs were always more relaxing games. If I wanted action and thrill, I'd jump on some shooters or MOBAs. Remember when I said it's too spammy and flashy? That exactly adds to that thrill and action feel, but you can't constantly have that for long periods of time. There's time and place for that, and that would be PvP or even Raids, but in general open-world content it's just too mentally taxing to constantly dodge and aim abilities on top of those abilities being spammy and flashy. MMORPGs also generally have an older audience compared to those games. You can't expect everyone to have perfect reflexes, to dodge everything perfectly, etc. Tab-targeting is simply more accessible to a wider-audience, it's more relaxing to play (doesn't mean it's boring). Also, gear should matter, it should change what you can and cannot do, not just to be a cosmetic thing that only adds power to your character. In GW2, there's almost no tanking, instead you are required to dodge stuff constantly. There is an option to select tanky stats, but you are useless in that case, and you'll still die if you don't dodge. There's a reason more action combat oriented games have moved away from the holy trinity, as implementing some of the roles (tanks and healers) isn't that easy or possible (correct me if I'm wrong) to do. Games like BDO or Lost Ark don't have tanks or the trinity of DPS. Healer, Tank. If they had tanks, you'd either make them so tanky that they could ignore mechanics, or they would still need to dodge everything which would kinda ruin the purpose of having a tank (bosses would move all over the place, are you really a tank if you can't actually get hit by stuff, etc.). Same thing with Healers, why would you dodge stuff if you can just rely on your healer keeping you at 100% HP. That's the reason why those roles usually don't work in action-combat games, as they would make you ignore a part of the combat system (dodging, avoiding attacks). In tab-target games, encounters are specifically designed around having a tank, dps and a healer. You need a tank to keep the aggro and take the hits (that DPS or Healers just wouldn't be able to take). You need Healer(s) to keep the tank, and the whole group alive. You need DPS to do damage, because Tanks and Healers don't do much. This is such a core part of the MMORPG genre, that I feel is missing in most full on action-combat games, so when the OP said "It takes the focus away from the rpg aspects", I can definitely see where they're coming from. One of the main arguments against tab-target combat is that it's boring. That's probably true for a lot of games, and it's not true at all for a lot of games. It's 2022, and most of the tab-target games that people have experienced were released 10+ years ago. There's no reason why they can't develop a great, unique and fun tab-targeting game. Archeage had tab-targeting, but it wasn't boring at all due to having different combos among other things. Tab-targeting games also absolutely do require skill to play, so to suggest otherwise would be...not smart. They just require different type of skill. If the game is "boring" or if you feel that action-combat requires more skill than tab-target, it's probably due to the game's implementation of the combat, not due to tab-target itself. I don't want to make this post any longer, but there were a lot of comments and arguments I wanted to reply to, but decided not to as it would take too long. Overall I'm optimistic about the direction of the combat in Ashes of Creation.
falcorpix wrote: » The fluidity of BDO comes from their combo systems, skills flow nicely one after the other, if you dont feel that way when playing, then I dont know what fluidity means to you.
But if we are presenting the genre to new players (which this genre desperately needs) then I dont think tab-target is that accessible. People aren't used to tab-targeting, barely any other genre has tab-target, people are playing FPS, fighters, mobas, etc, which are much closer to action combat than tab-target.
I feel like the exact same type of argument can be done with action-combat.
CROW3 wrote: » Some folks just like to butter the bottom side of their toast…
NiKr wrote: » CROW3 wrote: » Some folks just like to butter the bottom side of their toast… Just drop the toast and everyone's preferences will be equal
Noaani wrote: » falcorpix wrote: » The fluidity of BDO comes from their combo systems, skills flow nicely one after the other, if you dont feel that way when playing, then I dont know what fluidity means to you. To me, fluid combat is about how it plays. The most fluid combat of any game I have ever played is as a rogue type in EQ2. You have to time your abilities between your auto attack swings - which in many cases were going off ever half second. As such, you have to get yourself in to a specific rhythm in order to be effective. Timing your abilities with precision, but maintaining both position and facing. In terms of feeling fluid, nothing has ever come close. Thing is, it looks clunky. BDO is the opposite. It looks fluid, but it feels clunky. Many of the arguments for action combat are indeed arguments with how it looks, not how it plays. Fluidity of combat in action games is purely about how they look, as if the argument were how they play, there is no inherent difference - it's just how each is implemented (and tab target has a better implementation of it than action as far as I have found). But if we are presenting the genre to new players (which this genre desperately needs) then I dont think tab-target is that accessible. People aren't used to tab-targeting, barely any other genre has tab-target, people are playing FPS, fighters, mobas, etc, which are much closer to action combat than tab-target. I don't think this is a valid point at all. When players come to a new genre, they expect new gameplay. If they move to an MMO, and the combat plays basically the same as their favorite BR, they would have every right to ask why even bother with this new genre at all - since combat is the main system by which they will interact with the game. I mean, if I was playing a game that I enjoyed, and someone asked me to try a different genre that I had never played before, if the gameplay was basically the same I would just go back to the game I was already happy playing. I feel like the exact same type of argument can be done with action-combat. This is very true, and is kind of what I have been saying for a while. While tab and action combat are different, the actual implementation of each is more important than which one was implemented. People say things like "tab is slow", but Tera was slow as well. Then people say "yeah, but BDO wasn't, it was fast", but then so was EQ2. But action combat requires more accuracy, just look at Darkfall - or look at ESO to see that it doesn't. But Action requires accuracy - look at Darkfall - yet neither ESO, BDO or Tera require all that much accuracy, and indeed they require less accuracy than EQ2 requires (at times). The arguments about this are all just stupid, and are why I have always tried to talk about generalizations. As a generalization, action combat does indeed need more accuracy than tab, it is indeed generally faster, but it doesn't require as much thought in relation to using the correct ability. All of these generalizations can have exceptions (which are why they are generalizations), but they all still hold true.
Mag7spy wrote: » Again this combat is not good....
NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Again this combat is not good.... Preferences are preferential
Mag7spy wrote: » Are you pledged to pantheon?
NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Are you pledged to pantheon? Got not clue what it even has for features. I'm following Ashes for its gameplay (mainly L2's pvp) and could not care less what combat will be. Even if they somehow go full action, I'll just get used to it. But none of that matter because different people have different preferences. I've seen countless people say that WoW's combat is so fluiiiid and so respoooonsive, but to me it felt like utter shite. And I'm sure that a ton of people will puke from playing L2, but I love its controls and how it plays. Preferences.
Mag7spy wrote: » IF he said any other tab target mmo like AA, WoW, rift anything but he said eq, and eq combat isn't good. You can say mechanics, customizations, etc is good but it doesn't get more static then that. And then says BDO is clunky, its only clunky if you don't know what you are doing and mashing buttons.
Mag7spy wrote: » I thought swtor has sick gameplay once upon a time but that was many many years ago. Then i played new mmorpgs.
Mag7spy wrote: » You may be a tab target player but you are good of the good ones i will say, prob cause you are more about the PvP and that pushes you in all games.
Mag7spy wrote: » What about throne and liberty?
NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » What about throne and liberty? Waiting to see what they show. If it's f2p and available to me - definitely gonna at least try it. I'm 99% sure it's gonna be a p2w piece of shit, even if the game itself is semi-decent, so if it costs money - I ain't supporting that shit. It was supposed to be L3 back in the day (along with several other games) so I hope they manage to have a good game, but I really don't trust NCsoft to make a well-balanced non-p2w game.
Mag7spy wrote: » Tab target combat is not fluid you just press a button there isn't any control its clunky, piano playing or has no feeling to it.
