TheSgtPepper wrote: » Imagine if crafting required skills beyond clicking the "create item" button. If there were sort of mini-games associated with each crafting skill. If certain crafting mini-games got very hard at a high level and only certain people on the server could manage to achieve a perfect craft based on their player skill. Sure almost everyone could make a decent piece of armor and you could grind to make great armor but "ArmorSmith McBadass" can just really get it maxed out because all he does is smith armor and is damn good at it.
Azherae wrote: » I only meant that if everything else is there, there is no need for the minigame. What is it adding? If you already 'don't craft thousands of things but only craft during the impactful times'. If you already 'have good enough itemization to need to plan your materials for your result', already 'have a skill level attached to a character' and 'already have any boosts, buffs, or gear'. What is the point of the minigame other than a barrier to entry for those who have less physical execution ability, a chore if you make it easy enough for those people to do it, or a timesink? You outlined multiple concerns and problems, accept that there are other solutions to those concerns and problems, but then offer an additional thing that doesn't really matter other than 'giving bot script writers something to do and making it harder on less physically capable players' (or in the case where the response is 'oh it won't be that hard', now it's... just adding what?)
neuroguy wrote: » Yeah I think if you can get better at crafting from experience (playing the mini-games enough times) would be great and the more you invest/progress in a particular crafting tree the more advantages you get in the mini-game (to essentially trivialize some parts of it so you don't want to kill yourself the 2000th time you play the game). I think there should be scaling difficulty in the mini-game for the final product such that a very powerful item would be harder and therefore the advantages you've accrued from investing in that crafting profession makes it more feasible. Essentially, the system should have the mini-game be challenging only for the better items you can craft if you invest in that profession. The above and beyond for me would be if the crafting mini-game involved new mechanics with higher rarity and the old mechanics for lesser items would become trivial for the 'experienced' crafter.
TheSgtPepper wrote: » Azherae wrote: » I only meant that if everything else is there, there is no need for the minigame. What is it adding? If you already 'don't craft thousands of things but only craft during the impactful times'. If you already 'have good enough itemization to need to plan your materials for your result', already 'have a skill level attached to a character' and 'already have any boosts, buffs, or gear'. What is the point of the minigame other than a barrier to entry for those who have less physical execution ability, a chore if you make it easy enough for those people to do it, or a timesink? You outlined multiple concerns and problems, accept that there are other solutions to those concerns and problems, but then offer an additional thing that doesn't really matter other than 'giving bot script writers something to do and making it harder on less physically capable players' (or in the case where the response is 'oh it won't be that hard', now it's... just adding what?) Well, what would adding a mini-game inside of the game's purpose of a game be traditionally speaking? Fun, it's supposed to be a fun mini-game. It's supposed to solve the issue of menu crafting being boring while also giving players a chance to shine who are good at it. The players in AoC are intended to trade with each other. I would control the skill ceiling so that the best weapon vs a decent craft would only be the final few % and completely negligible except to those who are min-maxing to an extreme level. I am not in favor of gatekeeping less physically inclined players. No one needs to play at 100% efficiency. They will survive at 94.3% I am sure.
Azherae wrote: » So reviewing the goals: 1. The minigame must be consistently fun 2. The rest of the game's itemization in terms of strength of crafted items must be controlled so as to make the minigame's skill requirement less critical. 3. The minigame is meant to give players who are good at doing it a chance to shine. Do I have it all correct?
TheSgtPepper wrote: » Azherae wrote: » So reviewing the goals: 1. The minigame must be consistently fun 2. The rest of the game's itemization in terms of strength of crafted items must be controlled so as to make the minigame's skill requirement less critical. 3. The minigame is meant to give players who are good at doing it a chance to shine. Do I have it all correct? 1.) That is the idea. Offering different styles of mini-games with different professions and allowing people to find their niche in gameplay they find enjoyable with the option to auto succeed without too much of a punishment if they dislike it. Keep in mind it is intended for a player to not be able to do everything so trading must come into play. A player is NOT supposed to craft everything they use. 2.) I may be wrong but it is my current understanding that crafted items will make up the large majority of equipment in the game, even more so for high-end late-game items. So while I don't envy the balancing teams job ahead with 8 classes with 8 additional class augments I don't think this is what would push them over the edge. They will already be watching crafted items and balancing their power. It would be difficult to balance but not impossible between high skill having high value and average skill being totally acceptable and viable if not downright good for clearing game content. Probably make it scalar with the quality of gear and add diminishing returns for how high the quality goes. 3.) Because of the need for crafters and processors as well as the fact that some players do not enjoy combat and play for the social aspects I believe adding ways for players to gain recognition and add value to their community only serves to enrich and better the game. New ways to play the same game offer it to a wider audience and I always enjoy that in an MMO. I can see how it's directly conflictory with the second point but there lies the challenge. Finding a way to make crafting meaningful, fun, and not overbearing and tedious.
Azherae wrote: » Well, since you can see how the third is directly conflictory, I offer another option. Crafting isn't tedious if the other problems are solved, and it doesn't require a minigame to be so. I feel like a mistake many devs make is to think that the 'act of converting Itemset A into Item B' is 'crafting'. That's not 'crafting'. That's literally hitting a toggle on what form you want some materials to be in. Adding more to THAT process is pointless imo. 'Crafting' in an MMO is 'creating relationships', 'getting materials', etc. If you wanted 'real crafting' in an MMO, it would be in the ability to manipulate recipes and situations, still not necessarily 'making the conversion toggle into a minigame' because in that case you're betting. What if I don't like the minigame for the craft I find most interesting? Real crafting of THAT type is a terrifying monolith of information and expertise and careful steps, but we do have an example of it.https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/ps/256525-legend-of-mana/faqs/10806 I'm not asking you to read it. Just to note how long it is. I have a notebook full of techniques and recipes for this 'crafting'.
Azraya wrote: » im not much of a crafter but it would be great if there was just alot of options for you guys to customize stats and enchantments on weapons and armor maybe even specializing in a certain type, per crafter.
TheSgtPepper wrote: » I had the fortunate misadventure of playing Mortal Online II for long enough to max out my character and test many of the crafting systems. That game is an absolute wild ride for so many reasons. The huge complexity of their crafting systems is honestly over the top with "realism". I have a notebook with the weight, material type, extractor, skills needed, and catalysts and their output, which change with crafting skill level, extractor type, and extractor skill level ( still might not be as thick as that LoM one lol ).
Otr wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » My vote is yes to crafting mini games, not only for more fun but also to deter bots. Repetitive skill-based crafting mechanics, such as mini-games, are not an intended part of the crafting experience.[15][16] I think bots can do mini-games easily. Bot people are evil.
Dolyem wrote: » My vote is yes to crafting mini games, not only for more fun but also to deter bots.
Repetitive skill-based crafting mechanics, such as mini-games, are not an intended part of the crafting experience.[15][16]
CROW3 wrote: » We'll be a better society the day we see this: [ ] I actually am a robot.
TheSgtPepper wrote: » I think ideally the mini-games would only apply to crafting processes where the final product is made and never expanded on because as you point out that would become insanely tedious.
TheSgtPepper wrote: » I think you have a misconception that every player will be required to craft. Many players will never craft.
TheSgtPepper wrote: » This assumes all gear is crafted which I do not believe is the case and that people would only wear perfect crafted gear instead of accepting the fact that a 93% piece is still a decent piece. Not everyone has the time to min-max every piece of gear to the fullest. Although a lot try few ever reach that goal.
TheSgtPepper wrote: » I would make the risk scale with the reward. Low-level stuff could be impossible to fail. The medium could fail but is hard to. Hard could fail if you made a few mistakes. Epic could fail if you made one mistake. I like risk for my reward but I do agree it feels bad to lose rare materials on a failed attempt but I think that is mostly because it is just an RNG chance with no control over the situation. If I could control it I would have player agency over the situation and I wouldn't feel as punished. Maybe there could be a semi-rare item to guarantee a free refund?
TheSgtPepper wrote: » Not sure where the assumption that EVERYONE will craft and that it MUST be tedious. An item could take 4-8 seconds to craft but instead of a bar filling up you have to solve a simple puzzle or manage several meters or hit an object as fast as you can once it appears. Is it still super tedious to craft more than once a day?
TheSgtPepper wrote: » In Classic WoW or its ilk, it was tedious because you had to sit at the table and click the button wait 4-sec repeat 30 times, do inventory management, get more resources from the bank or AH, and repeat the whole process 12 + times. Mind-numbing. Two + hours of non-gameplay IF you had all the material AND optimized the route.
DrPlague wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » My vote is yes to crafting mini games, not only for more fun but also to deter bots. I won't be able to make my food and eat during those times. Mini games = more work for everyone. I doubt it will deter that many bots though if that's the case behind it. As a hardcore crafter I'm sure I'll be annoyed by them.
NiKr wrote: » TheSgtPepper wrote: » I think ideally the mini-games would only apply to crafting processes where the final product is made and never expanded on because as you point out that would become insanely tedious. From what I understand of the planned system, you'll be crafting several things before the final item, so this minigame would only impact ~<10% of the overall crafting? So you're not really removing tediousness of pressing a button and looking at the bar move.
NiKr wrote: » And that is exactly why I don't want minigames. It's about scale and relative amount of crafting per crafter. Guild will have just a few crafters, each specializing in some sub-branch of the system. Each of those crafters will be crafting those specific things for their entire guild (40+ people). So it's, at the very least, dozens upon dozens of crafts per crafter, with some of them crafting thousands of times. And all of those crafts will have to be perfect, because guilds will require that.
NiKr wrote: » Yes, and those singular low-mid lvl crafters wouldn't care about the tediousness either way, because they're not crafting hundreds of items.
NiKr wrote: » This kinda goes against the whole "profession progress" idea imo. You've spent hours/days/weeks leveling up your profession and mastery, yet your chance to fail a craft constantly increases. To me that doesn't make sense.
NiKr wrote: » It's exactly because I don't think that everyone will be crafting that I think having a minigame would be tedious. If 10 people were making one item each, it wouldn't be tedious for each person (relatively speaking), but when one person is making 10 items instead, it becomes tedious for that one person. I know because I've been that person for yeaaaars in L2. Mats were still rare and still required hours of gameplay to acquire, be it through mob grinding or just boss respawn timers. But because I had to craft for a guild of 120++ members, I usually set for several hours clicking "craft". And in L2 there wasn't a bar. It was instantaneous. And I still spent hours just crafting gear. And L2 required fewer gear pieces than Ashes will, so I can't even begin to imagine being a guild crafter in Ashes if it has minigames.
NiKr wrote: » I haven't played WoW so I dunno whether I'd like it or not, but as Azherae and you yourself stated in later comments, it's about the community and the reputation you get from being a crafter. Spending those hours crafting same gear in L2 wasn't tedious to me, because I knew that people spent even more time acquiring those items and that my work would be highly appreciated. I didn't need some simplistic minigame to make the process fun and rewarding, because the reward was me providing gear for my guildies. If anything, I'd say have the minigames work the other way around. The lower the crafting lvl of the crafter, the more minigames you have in crafting. All the casual crafters will have their fun with playing minigames once a day or rarer, while all the hardcore guild crafters won't have their crafting time prolonged by unneeded mechanics.
