I don't like action combat, and it could very potentially stop me from playing

I haven't played it yet, so I'm not drawing any sort of line yet. But steven asked for feedback about if we are going in a positive direction, and I'm just gonna say that every action combat korean type mmo I've ever played I have absolutely hated. I am tab target 100%, I think action combat only works from an overhead 3rd person perspective like diablo or league of legends or lost ark. I don't want to aim my ability's honestly, If I use a sword and get animation locked, and at the same time I'm required to dodge some kind of skill shot. I'm not gonna be happy. If I miss a spell as a spell caster because my mouse was 4 pixels off, same thing. Tab targeting let's me focus on what I think matters.

Find more posts tagged with

Staff

Comments

falcorpix

Noaani wrote: »

But if we are presenting the genre to new players (which this genre desperately needs) then I dont think tab-target is that accessible.
People aren't used to tab-targeting, barely any other genre has tab-target, people are playing FPS, fighters, mobas, etc, which are much closer to action combat than tab-target.

I don't think this is a valid point at all.

When players come to a new genre, they expect new gameplay.

If they move to an MMO, and the combat plays basically the same as their favorite BR, they would have every right to ask why even bother with this new genre at all - since combat is the main system by which they will interact with the game.

I mean, if I was playing a game that I enjoyed, and someone asked me to try a different genre that I had never played before, if the gameplay was basically the same I would just go back to the game I was already happy playing.

Theres more to gameplay than just the combat, MMOs still offer a lot of things other genres dont. The point is, to most people playing modern games, tab target will feel outdated. I dont really think theres a lot to argue here, exclusively tab-target games arent being made anymore for a reason.

Noaani

falcorpix wrote: »

Theres more to gameplay than just the combat, MMOs still offer a lot of things other genres dont. The point is, to most people playing modern games, tab target will feel outdated. I dont really think theres a lot to argue here, exclusively tab-target games arent being made anymore for a reason.

There is more to gameplay than just combat, but combat is the major system in most games.

I know a lot of younger gamers (under 20) that are gravitating towards older games - in many cases games that are older than they are.

Exclusively tab games haven't been made for a while because action was the new cool thing. As with all of these things, the older systems will come back in one way or another - they always do.

Enigmatic Sage

Noaani wrote: »

falcorpix wrote: »

Theres more to gameplay than just the combat, MMOs still offer a lot of things other genres dont. The point is, to most people playing modern games, tab target will feel outdated. I dont really think theres a lot to argue here, exclusively tab-target games arent being made anymore for a reason.

Exclusively tab games haven't been made for a while because action was the new cool thing. As with all of these things, the older systems will come back in one way or another - they always do.

relatively bold claim but dont forget that part of the reason for tab target games (especially for MMO sized player bases) was due to technological hurdles from not only the development side of things, but the consumers as well. Yes, action combat can be more demanding on the netcode as one example but dont forget about the additional coding in relation to physics of not only the players actions but projectiles and environment. They more than likely wouldn't have been able to handle action combat when DAOC, SWG, and WoW were in development especially for an MMO player base size. There have always been lots of more action combat style games but due to the limitations at the time, they were not as capable as they are today with how fast technology from hardware and software have evolved and become readily available.

One of the main reasons for tab target being so popular was due to technology hurdles within the industry and consumers but that doesn't mean it's not a good system. With advancements over the years, even wow has modified its combat into hybrid but still heavily favouring tab targeting.

I'd say over the last decade we've only been able to handle the demand for better physics in our games. But keeping in mind, not all games are coded equally for both engine capabilities, game design and server data packet handling between all the shards and things a-like.

Is TT inferior? no, it's a different way to do similar things with some compromise but it was a middle ground to allow for the higher player base style game to become feasible at the time with technological allowances. It's quite literally the reason why it was designed for its time and game design.

Noaani

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

relatively bold claim but dont forget that part of the reason for tab target games (especially for MMO sized player bases) was due to technological hurdles from not only the development side of things, but the consumers as well.

This is true, but was also true of turn based strategy. It exists because RTS games were not possible in the 80's. Then they became possible in the 90's and almost no one made turn based strategy games.

Now, all of a sudden, turn based strategy is back, in a big way - and not just among gamers that were around for its first wave.

It took a decade for turn based strategy games to really make a comeback, development of MMO's is slower than any other genre, but the last full tab target game released (by my reckoning) was Rift in 2011.

Enigmatic Sage

Noaani wrote: »

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

relatively bold claim but dont forget that part of the reason for tab target games (especially for MMO sized player bases) was due to technological hurdles from not only the development side of things, but the consumers as well.

This is true, but so is turn based strategy. It exists because RTS games were not possible in the 80's. Then they became possible in the 90's and almost no one made turn based strategy games.

Now, all of a sudden, turn based strategy is back, in a big way - and not just among gamers that were around for its first wave.

It took a decade for turn based strategy games to really make a comeback, development of MMO's is slower than any other genre, but the last full tab target game released (by my reckoning) was Rift in 2011.

true! the golden age of RTS

There's no denying that people follow trends especially in a consumer market. There will always be a target demographic or just demographics for the sake of but that doesn't necessarily mean the trend will survive either.

The industry continuously evolves building off of older trends and designs. One example could be mudds and rpg's/adventure games, every genre has it's history such as how MOBA's became popular from RTS even though it was just a custom map but there also hasn't been many people trying to push the industry for RTS either. The trends jumped around from Age of empires, Command and Conquers, Warcrafts, Starcrafts etc.

It's highly unlikely you find an extreme TT system in the MMORPG market these days as even they're are starting to incorporate AC elements into them regardless of where they land the scale. It's not dying per se but slowly transitioning which is why the Hybrid systems work so well now for the current time. If i cast a spell that launched skywards and auto targets friendly players to rain down healing projectiles/VFX then that in a way could still be considered an AC with tracking. But similarly, the arguement would fall back to if that ability required you to have a target initially (cool idea for a healing ability btw).

The ability system is where the true potential come to fruition for both systems. I believe they'll do a fair balance in the ability system for those want to use TT over AC.

Examples using spells:

Beam = probably just goes straight to targets current location, minimal tracking, could be dodged
projectile = could go straight, could have tracking to target, could be dodged
falling stars = could require initial target to arch towards, commence star fall, potential for dodge depending on tracking intensity.

Similarly with arrows

could be aimed relatively to target with weak tracking and range
ability trajectory plays a big roll in how it all functions as well before we get into physics and collision

Then we get into spell speeds from A to B or wherever they go and how easily they can be dodged and compensated for tracking allowance with hitbox interactions.

anyways, kind of went on a tangent there, lol

Solvryn

The more I read these debacles the more I’m pleased with the devs crafting their own unique hybrid as I’ve realized most people have a very limited understanding of data in video game development.

iccer

The fluidity of BDO comes from their combo systems, skills flow nicely one after the other, if you dont feel that way when playing, then I dont know what fluidity means to you.

I'm sorry but having my character locked in place doesn't represent fluid to me. Archeage had combos as well, and a lot of abilities also locked you in place. I wouldn't say it had fluid combat either.
GW2 on the other hand does have a fluid combat, but the issue with that game is the lack of impact and weight. Visual and sound feedback are lacking, and overall it can feel floaty (nowhere near the level of ESO though).
If AoC just combined the good things from other games (like they seem to be doing), we could have something similar to GW2s combat, but with more weight behind the abilities, and different combos like in Archeage, BDO, or whatever game. So far it looks like they're going in that direction, and I'm optimistic about how all of it will turn out.

I don't think this is true at all, I mean, it is true if we are talking about experienced MMO players that have used tab-targeting for ages.
But if we are presenting the genre to new players (which this genre desperately needs) then I dont think tab-target is that accessible.
People aren't used to tab-targeting, barely any other genre has tab-target, people are playing FPS, fighters, mobas, etc, which are much closer to action combat than tab-target.

Disagreed. Tab targeting is generally unique to MMOs, and I don't see why should MMOs get rid of it. Other games simply don't play like MMORPGs.

I feel like the exact same type of argument can be done with action-combat.

It absolutely can be. The issue is almost everyone who comes in here attacking tab-targeting and defending/praising action combat doesn't take this into consideration. Instead they generalize, and say all tab-targeting is boring, not fluid, etc. etc.

I absolutely agree with what Noaani has said in the reply.

Tab target combat is not fluid you just press a button there isn't any control its clunky, piano playing or has no feeling to it. You are waiting on world cooldowns and attacking every second when the cooldown is up on general abilities , that is not being fluid. And you are picking one of the worst ones as being "fluid" out of all tab target games.

But it's not true.

Generalizations mean nothing it just shows a lack of experience or unwillingly ness to provide facts and simply rely on what you think or feel.

Absolutely agreed. Now apply this to yourself.

I can agree that EQ2s combat doesn't look good, but that's because the game is 20 years old. That also doesn't mean it doesn't feel good to play or that it's not fluid.

JamesSunderland

iccer wrote: »

I can agree that EQ2s combat doesn't look good, but that's because the game is 20 years old. That also doesn't mean it doesn't feel good to play or that it's not fluid.

A combat looking good and feeling good just seems so personal and subjective its hard to properly measure it, some people like huge flashy animations, others like tamed animations, some like fast paced combat, others like slow paced, i for example, after 20 years still love how Lineage 2 combat looks and feels even though i'm more fond of action oriented combat nowadays.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TCS6Go5Uvs&

Dygz

NiKr wrote: »

Got no clue what it even has for features. I'm following Ashes for its gameplay (mainly L2's pvp) and could not care less what combat will be. Even if they somehow go full action, I'll just get used to it.

Pantheon combat is extremely slow and laborious, attempting to harken back to vanilla EQ combat.
You could fall into a coma in-between sword swings and age 100 years by the end of any battle.

truelyyy

They said from start it will be hybrid combat, so it shouldn't be a surprise

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Tab target combat is not fluid you just press a button there isn't any control its clunky, piano playing or has no feeling to it.

I mean, how you can liken something to piano playing and also say that it isn't fluid is beyond me. It's like you say "piano playing" as an insult or something to tab target games - yet seem to completely overlook the difficulty and complexity in playing the piano is far greater than any game.

I am having trouble grasping how you are able to deny that you are only talking about visuals in games and yet be so insistent on using visuals to back up your point, and also insist that others do the same.

You are talking about how the game looks, I am talking about how it plays.

If I want so watch something fluid, I'll go down to a river.

Piano play is not fluid combat....again you are reaching. Fluid combat is when you are actually involved in the combat using your weapon and moving with your own controls. When you swing your sword and feel how the feedback is given, is your next attack after smooth and follow through with your last attack.

If you are doing combat and swing your sword and had a 1 second delay after attacking a it would feel choppy and not smooth. So for example if you applied global cooldown to action combat with the delay you wouldn't feel like its fluid at all, no mix between attacks with how your controls respond to you.

You keep talking about visuals...that is TAB target not action combat holy hell. How can you not understand the basic principle of action and tab combat it's actually insane. In action your moving Dodges attacks, meaning if you use a ability or dodge that physically moves you back their aim on their skill needs to either adjust for your movement or your movement will dodge their skill because physically their sword or arrow are not hitting you. It takes into account world space into the combat with your hitbox. If you use a range skill on tab target the arrow automatically hits the target, if you use a melee skill in range the damage will go off even if they are in mid dodge because you were at a range that you could have attacked them and its not about your weapon swing.

You are purposely being ignorant and ignoring fundamental mechanics and then saying EQ2 gameplay looks fluid when its slow, rough and had nothing to do with being fluid. Fluid is when you do a move that pushing your character forward hitting something, you can dodge to the side without a delay as the moves flow together well, into an attack that can launch them in the air and then doing another move after. Without being bound to global cooldown and the moves being able to tie together well.

Fluid is NOT EQ2 cast spell, sit for global cooldown, cast another spell while moving back, buff since its not effected by global cooldown, and then cast another spell.....

Mag7spy

Otr wrote: »

I changed my mind. I want tab targeting more than action combat.

I think AC can be converted to TT but converting TT to AC is more work and will take features away.

Action players can play tab targeting games too. No need to take fun away from tab targeting players.

Why don't you pick up pantheon then? Obviously its more work to implement action combat in a game, to make it feel right and work right. The same way its more work to do action combat over a turn based combat.

So your mind set is you are worried about them running out of money and not being able to make the game, because of more work being required to make a better system?

iccer

Mag7spy wrote: »

Piano play is not fluid combat....again you are reaching. Fluid combat is when you are actually involved in the combat using your weapon and moving with your own controls. When you swing your sword and feel how the feedback is given, is your next attack after smooth and follow through with your last attack.

Uhhh, you definitely seem to be confusing "fluid" with something else like weight, feedback and impact.

Mag7spy wrote: »

If you are doing combat and swing your sword and had a 1 second delay after attacking a it would feel choppy and not smooth. So for example if you applied global cooldown to action combat with the delay you wouldn't feel like its fluid at all, no mix between attacks with how your controls respond to you.

You keep talking about visuals...that is TAB target not action combat holy hell. How can you not understand the basic principle of action and tab combat it's actually insane. In action your moving Dodges attacks, meaning if you use a ability or dodge that physically moves you back their aim on their skill needs to either adjust for your movement or your movement will dodge their skill because physically their sword or arrow are not hitting you. It takes into account world space into the combat with your hitbox. If you use a range skill on tab target the arrow automatically hits the target, if you use a melee skill in range the damage will go off even if they are in mid dodge because you were at a range that you could have attacked them and its not about your weapon swing.

????

Mag7spy wrote: »

You are purposely being ignorant and ignoring fundamental mechanics and then saying EQ2 gameplay looks fluid when its slow, rough and had nothing to do with being fluid. Fluid is when you do a move that pushing your character forward hitting something, you can dodge to the side without a delay as the moves flow together well, into an attack that can launch them in the air and then doing another move after. Without being bound to global cooldown and the moves being able to tie together well.

Fluid is NOT EQ2 cast spell, sit for global cooldown, cast another spell while moving back, buff since its not effected by global cooldown, and then cast another spell.....

I'm just gonna say this again. Being locked into abilities, that often move your character around, isn't fluid to me. Yes, doing different combos and switching from one ability to another can feel fluid in action combat games, but that's also the case for tab-targeting games. Also, it just looks like spammy ADHD infused mess.

With tab-targeting it also depends on the game, as a lot of them aren't fluid either. Global cooldowns can ruin the feeling of fluidness if they're too long.

I'm looking at BDO as an example here, as it's praised for having some of the best combat in any MMORPG. Most of the abilities have animation locks, you are basically immobilized while you are channeling/casting your ability. It's like a sped up power-point presentation. It looks all nice and flashy, but that's about it for me. Just by looking at Tera's combat, I'd say it's better than BDO, by a large margin.

When I look at the gameplay of most action combat MMORPGs, they just don't feel like MMORPGs to me. It's like a completely different genre of MMOs.
With tab-targeting games, I can usually tell classes apart, each of them will have a well defined theme and playstyle, where in action combat games it's less rigid and every class is way too flashy, slashing and dashing across the entire screen, blowing stuff up.

There already are so many action-combat MMOs out there released in the last few years. There aren't that many tab-targeting MMOs released recently. Like I've said, people judge tab-targeting based on 10+ year old games. There has been little innovation with tab-targeting, besides hybrid combat systems like GW2, or even Archeage that kinda improved upon the classic tab-targeting by introducing combos.

I'm glad AoC is going the hybrid/more tab-target based route, as its the natural evolution to classic tab-targeting, without the whole mess of action combat. I'm gonna use a similar comment that I've seen previously in this thread, "If you don't like tab-targeting then this game might not be for you".

falcorpix

iccer wrote: »

There already are so many action-combat MMOs out there released in the last few years. There aren't that many tab-targeting MMOs released recently. Like I've said, people judge tab-targeting based on 10+ year old games. There has been little innovation with tab-targeting, besides hybrid combat systems like GW2, or even Archeage that kinda improved upon the classic tab-targeting by introducing combos.

There is no innovation because tab-target has already done everything that can be done by staying purely tab-target.
The only innovation now is to become more like action combat by either introducing action combat features, by becoming an hybrid combat, or by straight up becoming action combat itself.

iccer wrote: »

I'm glad AoC is going the hybrid/more tab-target based route

well, im glad it is going hybrid/more action based

Mag7spy

iccer wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Piano play is not fluid combat....again you are reaching. Fluid combat is when you are actually involved in the combat using your weapon and moving with your own controls. When you swing your sword and feel how the feedback is given, is your next attack after smooth and follow through with your last attack.

Uhhh, you definitely seem to be confusing "fluid" with something else like weight, feedback and impact.

Mag7spy wrote: »

If you are doing combat and swing your sword and had a 1 second delay after attacking a it would feel choppy and not smooth. So for example if you applied global cooldown to action combat with the delay you wouldn't feel like its fluid at all, no mix between attacks with how your controls respond to you.

You keep talking about visuals...that is TAB target not action combat holy hell. How can you not understand the basic principle of action and tab combat it's actually insane. In action your moving Dodges attacks, meaning if you use a ability or dodge that physically moves you back their aim on their skill needs to either adjust for your movement or your movement will dodge their skill because physically their sword or arrow are not hitting you. It takes into account world space into the combat with your hitbox. If you use a range skill on tab target the arrow automatically hits the target, if you use a melee skill in range the damage will go off even if they are in mid dodge because you were at a range that you could have attacked them and its not about your weapon swing.

????

Mag7spy wrote: »

You are purposely being ignorant and ignoring fundamental mechanics and then saying EQ2 gameplay looks fluid when its slow, rough and had nothing to do with being fluid. Fluid is when you do a move that pushing your character forward hitting something, you can dodge to the side without a delay as the moves flow together well, into an attack that can launch them in the air and then doing another move after. Without being bound to global cooldown and the moves being able to tie together well.

Fluid is NOT EQ2 cast spell, sit for global cooldown, cast another spell while moving back, buff since its not effected by global cooldown, and then cast another spell.....

I'm just gonna say this again. Being locked into abilities, that often move your character around, isn't fluid to me. Yes, doing different combos and switching from one ability to another can feel fluid in action combat games, but that's also the case for tab-targeting games. Also, it just looks like spammy ADHD infused mess.

With tab-targeting it also depends on the game, as a lot of them aren't fluid either. Global cooldowns can ruin the feeling of fluidness if they're too long.

I'm looking at BDO as an example here, as it's praised for having some of the best combat in any MMORPG. Most of the abilities have animation locks, you are basically immobilized while you are channeling/casting your ability. It's like a sped up power-point presentation. It looks all nice and flashy, but that's about it for me. Just by looking at Tera's combat, I'd say it's better than BDO, by a large margin.

When I look at the gameplay of most action combat MMORPGs, they just don't feel like MMORPGs to me. It's like a completely different genre of MMOs.
With tab-targeting games, I can usually tell classes apart, each of them will have a well defined theme and playstyle, where in action combat games it's less rigid and every class is way too flashy, slashing and dashing across the entire screen, blowing stuff up.

There already are so many action-combat MMOs out there released in the last few years. There aren't that many tab-targeting MMOs released recently. Like I've said, people judge tab-targeting based on 10+ year old games. There has been little innovation with tab-targeting, besides hybrid combat systems like GW2, or even Archeage that kinda improved upon the classic tab-targeting by introducing combos.

I'm glad AoC is going the hybrid/more tab-target based route, as its the natural evolution to classic tab-targeting, without the whole mess of action combat. I'm gonna use a similar comment that I've seen previously in this thread, "If you don't like tab-targeting then this game might not be for you".

You don't understand combat....What do you think fluid means.

You also don't understand bdo combat, we could easily go over all the classes and moves. If you don't understand the game and don't play it enough to learn it on a move advanced level and are button mashing you are not playing it properly.

If you can't tell BDO classes apart you have not played the game at all, so why are you talking about bdo if you don't understand it when people are telling you that is not the case? Clearly the people that have played the game on a higher level would know better.
1. If its clunky to you, you never played the game to learn it
2. You can clearly see in videos people can move and attack, they have movements with their attacks and are not standing still all day. Which can also vary class to class.

Spamming jump and kiting while all your skills land on people without really needing to aim isn't good combat. Good combat is action oriented and the directions mmorpgs have been going towards since the early ages. It is exactly why you don't see click to move as being a big thing compared to ages ago.

Yes modern games are more flashy with effects then older mmorpgs, why is this even a point? Have you even seen the effects in AoC on alpha alone in large fights?

I hear more complains on tab target players wanting to remove action elements so they don't need to deal with the learning curve than I hear action players saying remove tab target.....If you don't like action combat this mmorpg might not be for you....

Mag7spy

falcorpix wrote: »

iccer wrote: »

There already are so many action-combat MMOs out there released in the last few years. There aren't that many tab-targeting MMOs released recently. Like I've said, people judge tab-targeting based on 10+ year old games. There has been little innovation with tab-targeting, besides hybrid combat systems like GW2, or even Archeage that kinda improved upon the classic tab-targeting by introducing combos.

There is no innovation because tab-target has already done everything that can be done by staying purely tab-target.
The only innovation now is to become more like action combat by either introducing action combat features, by becoming an hybrid combat, or by straight up becoming action combat itself.

iccer wrote: »

I'm glad AoC is going the hybrid/more tab-target based route

well, im glad it is going hybrid/more action based

Tab target have been trying to be more like action games with more movements and types of skills or trying to fake elements for years. That is the direction, its mainly older types that played older mmorpgs not wanting to embrace the change. And I've played the old mmorpgs back to shadowbane and eq when I was a kid.

Mag7spy

This convo would be much different if it was about making both the tab and combat as fun experience as possible as well as balancing between the two which clearly they have plans to with tab skills auto hitting and having a higher miss chance applied to it in some form.

Mag7spy

Mag7spy wrote: »

This convo would be much different if it was about making both the tab and combat as fun experience as possible as well as balancing between the two which clearly they have plans to with tab skills auto hitting and having a higher miss chance applied to it in some form.

Instead you have these random few post of people wanting to clip action combat and them not realizing how many people like that kind of combat.

iccer

Mag7spy wrote: »

You don't understand combat....What do you think fluid means.

You also don't understand bdo combat, we could easily go over all the classes and moves. If you don't understand the game and don't play it enough to learn it on a move advanced level and are button mashing you are not playing it properly.

If you can't tell BDO classes apart you have not played the game at all, so why are you talking about bdo if you don't understand it when people are telling you that is not the case? Clearly the people that have played the game on a higher level would know better.
1. If its clunky to you, you never played the game to learn it
2. You can clearly see in videos people can move and attack, they have movements with their attacks and are not standing still all day. Which can also vary class to class.

Spamming jump and kiting while all your skills land on people without really needing to aim isn't good combat. Good combat is action oriented and the directions mmorpgs have been going towards since the early ages. It is exactly why you don't see click to move as being a big thing compared to ages ago.

Yes modern games are more flashy with effects then older mmorpgs, why is this even a point? Have you even seen the effects in AoC on alpha alone in large fights?

I hear more complains on tab target players wanting to remove action elements so they don't need to deal with the learning curve than I hear action players saying remove tab target.....If you don't like action combat this mmorpg might not be for you....

Sigh...I actually thought about making a response to each of your arguments, but there's no point in wasting my time. It's obvious that there's no point in me trying to explain anything here. You can make up any argument you want, but that's not going to change my mind. Just like how I can argue my points but I wont change your mind.
I know I prefer one type over the other, just like one man might prefer blondes and the other might prefer brunettes. It's personal preference, and one might not necessarily be better than another, it all depends on other things as well, not just the color of the hair itself.

I really don't understand why you are trying to argue with people for 17 pages straight other than to troll, the game is going to be HYBRID combat, not action, and probably it's gonna lean more on tab-targeting side than action combat with a lot of stuff, so again...

If you don't like TAB-TARGETING combat this mmorpg might not be for you....

Action-combat = bad, Tab-targeting = bad
There we go.

Mag7spy

iccer wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

You don't understand combat....What do you think fluid means.

You also don't understand bdo combat, we could easily go over all the classes and moves. If you don't understand the game and don't play it enough to learn it on a move advanced level and are button mashing you are not playing it properly.

If you can't tell BDO classes apart you have not played the game at all, so why are you talking about bdo if you don't understand it when people are telling you that is not the case? Clearly the people that have played the game on a higher level would know better.
1. If its clunky to you, you never played the game to learn it
2. You can clearly see in videos people can move and attack, they have movements with their attacks and are not standing still all day. Which can also vary class to class.

Spamming jump and kiting while all your skills land on people without really needing to aim isn't good combat. Good combat is action oriented and the directions mmorpgs have been going towards since the early ages. It is exactly why you don't see click to move as being a big thing compared to ages ago.

Yes modern games are more flashy with effects then older mmorpgs, why is this even a point? Have you even seen the effects in AoC on alpha alone in large fights?

I hear more complains on tab target players wanting to remove action elements so they don't need to deal with the learning curve than I hear action players saying remove tab target.....If you don't like action combat this mmorpg might not be for you....

Sigh...I actually thought about making a response to each of your arguments, but there's no point in wasting my time. It's obvious that there's no point in me trying to explain anything here. You can make up any argument you want, but that's not going to change my mind. Just like how I can argue my points but I wont change your mind.
I know I prefer one type over the other, just like one man might prefer blondes and the other might prefer brunettes. It's personal preference, and one might not necessarily be better than another, it all depends on other things as well, not just the color of the hair itself.

I really don't understand why you are trying to argue with people for 17 pages straight other than to troll, the game is going to be HYBRID combat, not action, and probably it's gonna lean more on tab-targeting side than action combat with a lot of stuff, so again...

If you don't like TAB-TARGETING combat this mmorpg might not be for you....

Action-combat = bad, Tab-targeting = bad
There we go.

You are missing the actual context of the conversation what is being talked about.... Action combat can do large scale raid encounters that is not exclusive to tab target mechanics and all and about how it is designed....

Child Item