I don't like action combat, and it could very potentially stop me from playing

I haven't played it yet, so I'm not drawing any sort of line yet. But steven asked for feedback about if we are going in a positive direction, and I'm just gonna say that every action combat korean type mmo I've ever played I have absolutely hated. I am tab target 100%, I think action combat only works from an overhead 3rd person perspective like diablo or league of legends or lost ark. I don't want to aim my ability's honestly, If I use a sword and get animation locked, and at the same time I'm required to dodge some kind of skill shot. I'm not gonna be happy. If I miss a spell as a spell caster because my mouse was 4 pixels off, same thing. Tab targeting let's me focus on what I think matters.

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B_B_Z

Im just going to comment so I can be part of this rediculous thread.

Mag7spy

SirChancelot wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

What about throne and liberty?

Waiting to see what they show. If it's f2p and available to me - definitely gonna at least try it. I'm 99% sure it's gonna be a p2w piece of shit, even if the game itself is semi-decent, so if it costs money - I ain't supporting that shit. It was supposed to be L3 back in the day (along with several other games) so I hope they manage to have a good game, but I really don't trust NCsoft to make a well-balanced non-p2w game.

Current information indicates the P2W element will be low, but that's just 'promises to make sure it's fair'.

Other clearer information around it however does indicate there are structures implied where it won't be 'direct' P2W in any real way

Mag7spy wrote: »

Wish this guy was a higher level but its still fine you can see the cooldown bar going off, its staggering the moves so he can't spam them all at once as systems in tab are different then combat. And staggered with a global cool down so its like starting a car, stopping, starting a car and stopping again. Not as bad as even older mmorps but its still not smooth with flow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yp0ijP1T3g

So, if a Tab game doesn't have Global Cooldown, is it fine?

If tab doesn't have global cooldown it break because its designed differently. Action combat is more about the movements being the timeframe between your next attack, and then being able to use other skills that flow or cancel it so you aren't able to spam everything instantly.

In theory if you removed cooldown bars and the character has to do a full animation and you could use your next skill after and there was no global cooldowns perhaps that would be a start for tab target. Where you could be like this game does have a flow to actually talk about with it. Some traits AA did have I believe when you transformed into the demon form as that felt a bit more hybrid to me though still more on tab target side.

So short form no global cooldown would be a step in the right direction in having that kind of discussion if it has good flow to it.

You haven't seen high end stuff from FFXIV have you?
Half your rotation ends up being non GCD skills that you weave between your GCD skills

Which thank God because the long ass GCD before you get any of those abilities was slow as hell 😆

Have not seen high end of that mmo, i was going to play it with some friends but then i got shafted and bought the expansion and it wasn't the actual game since i wasn't fully paying attention. In my mind set i got robbed.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Fluid is NOT EQ2 cast spell, sit for global cooldown, cast another spell while moving back, buff since its not effected by global cooldown, and then cast another spell.....

So, that doesn't sound very fluid ar all - but it also isn't EQ2.

For a start, buffs in EQ2 do trigger the GVD, but the bulk of then are also permanant. Those few buffs that are not permanently are things you would want to VERY specifically time, and you would not be moving back to cast them.

Second, in a decade playing EQ2, I never once waited for the GCD. Just doesnt happen.

Third, you are talking about casters, as I said earlier it is the rogue types that have fluid combat in EQ2, not casters. This is about as smart as me talking about Tera in relation to how slow action combat is, as opposed to BDO - classes in EQ2 have more of a different play feel to them than BDO and Tera have between them.

Fourth, you cant move back while casting in EQ2.

Once again, you literally have no idea about tab target.

Having a bar before you can use a skill on almost skill is the same as GCD, slight can be slightly more dynamic if there is different timing per skill. Things will be easier to see once more on the combat comes out and people can play it tbh @JamesSunderland is right. In the end it doesn't really matter since ashes is hybrid when you can use both action and tab and see how it feels we will have a better sense for the game we will actually be playing is like. Then we can judge who can use action / tab and what kind of content players are capable of doing and how well. Rather then just saying action can't do high end raid content without actually playing the game which honestly makes no sense. Prob just arguing about it since i think its wack but time will tell and then we can come back to this in the future in 2077.

If you want to bug me about questions feel free to ask me though trying to avoid ultra long post now with less arguing for the moment lol.

Dygz

NiKr wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

I'm still trying to understand the purpose of the continued discussion when Ashes has both Tab Target and Action Combat.

It's because we can't really discuss how Ashes will be, while we still have an apparent need to discuss something, otherwise we wouldn't be on these forums. I'm sure there'll be a ton of productive discussions once Alpha2 comes out.

There’s plenty of other stuff to discuss.
But, I guess, for people who love to repeat dungeons and raids ad nauseum…

Ludullu

Dygz wrote: »

There’s plenty of other stuff to discuss.
But, I guess, for people who love to repeat dungeons and raids ad nauseum…

Don't forget pvp too.

Dygz

JamesSunderland wrote: »

Most likely because Hybrid is a spectrum that can lean more towards either side, some want it to lean more towards Tab others want it to lean more towards Action, in the end both sides will need to personally test it in A2 to reach a solid understanding to push this conversation further, as the usual tab vs action debate derails due to the lack of knowledge of how A2 combat will be for people to truly start comparing to predecessors.

That’s not a because.
We need to test - same as Corruption.
But, a PvPer is not going to convince a PvEr that PvE is boring. And a PvEr is not going to convince a PvPer that PvE is better.

So, yeah, people will have to test the Ashes implementation before they say, “OK. Well, that’s better than I was expecting it be.”

50 pages of debate about what a person prefers is not going to change minds.

I have a childhood friend who doesn’t like chocolate. Doesn’t matter how much I explain why I like chocolate or that chocolate is way better than coffee.
She’s not going to suddenly agree that chocolate better.

JamesSunderland

Dygz wrote: »

50 pages of debate about what a person prefers is not going to change minds

I mean not necessary straight up change peoples minds, but maybe broaden their horizons a bit and make them atleast more open minded to whatever place in the hybrid spectrum Ashes will put us...

Dygz

This debate won’t do that.
Testing might open minds a bit.

Mag7spy

JamesSunderland wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

50 pages of debate about what a person prefers is not going to change minds

I mean not necessary straight up change peoples minds, but maybe broaden their horizons a bit and make them atleast more open minded to whatever place in the hybrid spectrum Ashes will put us...

I use to think that xD

JamesSunderland

Maybe i'm just being a bit too optimistic

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

edit: it seems that some of skills trigger smth similar to a gcd, but it's so short and doesn't seem to impact all the skills, that I can't see it being that impactful on the gameplay as a whole at that lvl.

@NiKr

Unlike a number of games that have basically a ticking clock to visually represent the GCD, EQ2 just kind of... doesn't. It assumes players playing the game are smart enough to not need that kind of assistance.

An example of the GCD in the video above would be at about 12:35. The player casts Deadly Shot, and has Caltrops queued up (just) before the GCD is up. If you look at the poisons on the hotbars to the right of the main hotbar, you will see that when the player casts an ability, some of them grey out indicating that they can not be used - which in this case is for both the casting time of an ability as well as the GCD.

So, if you find where those abilities are used, and you watch the ability cast bar, the time from when the bar from casting Deadly Shot disappears until the point where the cast bar for Caltrops appears, that is the games GCD.

Incidentally, that GCD can be shortened from that duration via spec and gear, though that particular class (Assassin) probably has no real need to do so.

If you have any other questions as to what is going on in that specific video, feel free to ask. I am not overly familiar with the UI mod being used, but anything else is fairly straight forward from my perspective.

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

at the moment the main discussion is Eq 2 is not smooth ok here are the reasons and videos.

I don't see a gcd. I'd need @Noaani to explain this video a bit more, but I can't see the skills on the panel all refreshing together when one is used.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zR4qAR6RRN4

It is doing GCD in a different way, notice how every time he uses a skill there is a bar that goes off akin to cast time. You sometimes have a few skills not affected by it or can be proced and you get more free attacks.

What you are looking at has nothing at all to do with GCD. That is the cast time.

I don't know how many times I have said to you that looking at a video of a game isn't going to give you any idea at all what is going on in that game. if you don't know the combat system in question, all you are doing is guessing (which is all you have ever done in relation to tab target games.)

Also, your comment that DDO is hardcore made me laugh. Since it is one of the most casual, easy MMO's of the mid 2000's, calling it hardcore really is amusing. I *assume* you said that in jest.

That said, the fact that you called it DnD online makes me think you didn't actually play it much - if at all, as literally everyone that has ever played it abbreviates it to DDO.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Having a bar before you can use a skill on almost skill is the same as GCD

No it isn't. Both of these systems each serve a VERY specific function.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Having a bar before you can use a skill on almost skill is the same as GCD

No it isn't. Both of these systems each serve a VERY specific function.

If you are waiting 1.5 seconds before using a skill it works the same way as GCD its just slightly more dynamic if there is different times like some skills could be 1.2 seconds.

But humor me how is it different if you are both waiting.

Noaani wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

edit: it seems that some of skills trigger smth similar to a gcd, but it's so short and doesn't seem to impact all the skills, that I can't see it being that impactful on the gameplay as a whole at that lvl.

@NiKr

Unlike a number of games that have basically a ticking clock to visually represent the GCD, EQ2 just kind of... doesn't. It assumes players playing the game are smart enough to not need that kind of assistance.

An example of the GCD in the video above would be at about 12:35. The player casts Deadly Shot, and has Caltrops queued up (just) before the GCD is up. If you look at the poisons on the hotbars to the right of the main hotbar, you will see that when the player casts an ability, some of them grey out indicating that they can not be used - which in this case is for both the casting time of an ability as well as the GCD.

So, if you find where those abilities are used, and you watch the ability cast bar, the time from when the bar from casting Deadly Shot disappears until the point where the cast bar for Caltrops appears, that is the games GCD.

Incidentally, that GCD can be shortened from that duration via spec and gear, though that particular class (Assassin) probably has no real need to do so.

If you have any other questions as to what is going on in that specific video, feel free to ask. I am not overly familiar with the UI mod being used, but anything else is fairly straight forward from my perspective.

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

at the moment the main discussion is Eq 2 is not smooth ok here are the reasons and videos.

I don't see a gcd. I'd need @Noaani to explain this video a bit more, but I can't see the skills on the panel all refreshing together when one is used.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zR4qAR6RRN4

It is doing GCD in a different way, notice how every time he uses a skill there is a bar that goes off akin to cast time. You sometimes have a few skills not affected by it or can be proced and you get more free attacks.

What you are looking at has nothing at all to do with GCD. That is the cast time.

I don't know how many times I have said to you that looking at a video of a game isn't going to give you any idea at all what is going on in that game. if you don't know the combat system in question, all you are doing is guessing (which is all you have ever done in relation to tab target games.)

Also, your comment that DDO is hardcore made me laugh. Since it is one of the most casual, easy MMO's of the mid 2000's, calling it hardcore really is amusing. I *assume* you said that in jest.

That said, the fact that you called it DnD online makes me think you didn't actually play it much - if at all, as literally everyone that has ever played it abbreviates it to DDO.

Don't start arguing me with another game that is like 20 years old please look at what your saying it brings nothing to the conversation. You are literarily just talking crap for no reason.

PenguinPaladin

Would anyone like to explain the difference between GCD and just cooldowns in general... in case there may be some ignorant people in the thread?

Mag7spy

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

Would anyone like to explain the difference between GCD and just cooldowns in general... in case there may be some ignorant people in the thread?

Global cool down is when you use a skill and all skills / some skills go on cooldown at the same time. Cooldown is when you use a skill and you need to wait 15 seconds before you can use it again. In can have cases of both at the same time. Other method is when you use a skill everything has a cast time on it, which is just another take on globla cooldown that makes things a bit more dynamic. Generally mmorpgs have had gcd but some also use having cast time on all skills as another method City of heroes did that as well. It allows skills to not be all used at the same time for balance reasons as animation is just flare and doesn't effect combat. It also makes it so flow isn't needed or mostly removed between animations giving the character a chance to reset back to its general defeat position.

Mag7spy

to argue the difference between ally our skills having Cast time and GCD is silly as they both have the same function overall. There can be a very slight different but its just being presented differently to the user.

Ie GCD you might have to wait 1.5 seconds.

Skills You have to wait 1-3 seconds per skill use.

Both cause players to be waiting on a move, though non gcd will feel a bit better, but overall the discussion was feeling fluid and you still get the same stepping pauses akin to turn based that doesn't make fluid combat and why i compared it to bdo with how things chain together and the need to feel fluid else the combat would feel bad.

PenguinPaladin

Mag7spy wrote: »

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

Would anyone like to explain the difference between GCD and just cooldowns in general... in case there may be some ignorant people in the thread?

Global cool down is when you use a skill and all skills / some skills go on cooldown at the same time. Cooldown is when you use a skill and you need to wait 15 seconds before you can use it again. In can have cases of both at the same time. Other method is when you use a skill everything has a cast time on it, which is just another take on globla cooldown that makes things a bit more dynamic. Generally mmorpgs have had gcd but some also use having cast time on all skills as another method City of heroes did that as well. It allows skills to not be all used at the same time for balance reasons as animation is just flare and doesn't effect combat. It also makes it so flow isn't needed or mostly removed between animations giving the character a chance to reset back to its general defeat position.

Is this explanation good for all those in the argument? Or is there some miss communication between the parties?

Dygz

Cool down is on just one ability.
GCD is on all abilities.

I think cast time is different, but to someone who wants fast combat speed, they all may be equally frustrating.

SirChancelot

Mag7spy wrote: »

SirChancelot wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

What about throne and liberty?

Waiting to see what they show. If it's f2p and available to me - definitely gonna at least try it. I'm 99% sure it's gonna be a p2w piece of shit, even if the game itself is semi-decent, so if it costs money - I ain't supporting that shit. It was supposed to be L3 back in the day (along with several other games) so I hope they manage to have a good game, but I really don't trust NCsoft to make a well-balanced non-p2w game.

Current information indicates the P2W element will be low, but that's just 'promises to make sure it's fair'.

Other clearer information around it however does indicate there are structures implied where it won't be 'direct' P2W in any real way

Mag7spy wrote: »

Wish this guy was a higher level but its still fine you can see the cooldown bar going off, its staggering the moves so he can't spam them all at once as systems in tab are different then combat. And staggered with a global cool down so its like starting a car, stopping, starting a car and stopping again. Not as bad as even older mmorps but its still not smooth with flow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yp0ijP1T3g

So, if a Tab game doesn't have Global Cooldown, is it fine?

If tab doesn't have global cooldown it break because its designed differently. Action combat is more about the movements being the timeframe between your next attack, and then being able to use other skills that flow or cancel it so you aren't able to spam everything instantly.

In theory if you removed cooldown bars and the character has to do a full animation and you could use your next skill after and there was no global cooldowns perhaps that would be a start for tab target. Where you could be like this game does have a flow to actually talk about with it. Some traits AA did have I believe when you transformed into the demon form as that felt a bit more hybrid to me though still more on tab target side.

So short form no global cooldown would be a step in the right direction in having that kind of discussion if it has good flow to it.

You haven't seen high end stuff from FFXIV have you?
Half your rotation ends up being non GCD skills that you weave between your GCD skills

Which thank God because the long ass GCD before you get any of those abilities was slow as hell 😆

Have not seen high end of that mmo, i was going to play it with some friends but then i got shafted and bought the expansion and it wasn't the actual game since i wasn't fully paying attention. In my mind set i got robbed.

This is one thing I will always applaud WoW for. The battle.net store, the launcher, and just getting into the game in general. Is WAY easier for WoW than I have ever seen it with a different MMO. I will also say that FFXIV is the absolute worst at it. All the mog station Crystia bs is annoying for no reason.

I do hope ashes is nice and simple and straight forward for all of the outside game stuff.

Mag7spy

SirChancelot wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

SirChancelot wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

What about throne and liberty?

Waiting to see what they show. If it's f2p and available to me - definitely gonna at least try it. I'm 99% sure it's gonna be a p2w piece of shit, even if the game itself is semi-decent, so if it costs money - I ain't supporting that shit. It was supposed to be L3 back in the day (along with several other games) so I hope they manage to have a good game, but I really don't trust NCsoft to make a well-balanced non-p2w game.

Current information indicates the P2W element will be low, but that's just 'promises to make sure it's fair'.

Other clearer information around it however does indicate there are structures implied where it won't be 'direct' P2W in any real way

Mag7spy wrote: »

Wish this guy was a higher level but its still fine you can see the cooldown bar going off, its staggering the moves so he can't spam them all at once as systems in tab are different then combat. And staggered with a global cool down so its like starting a car, stopping, starting a car and stopping again. Not as bad as even older mmorps but its still not smooth with flow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yp0ijP1T3g

So, if a Tab game doesn't have Global Cooldown, is it fine?

If tab doesn't have global cooldown it break because its designed differently. Action combat is more about the movements being the timeframe between your next attack, and then being able to use other skills that flow or cancel it so you aren't able to spam everything instantly.

In theory if you removed cooldown bars and the character has to do a full animation and you could use your next skill after and there was no global cooldowns perhaps that would be a start for tab target. Where you could be like this game does have a flow to actually talk about with it. Some traits AA did have I believe when you transformed into the demon form as that felt a bit more hybrid to me though still more on tab target side.

So short form no global cooldown would be a step in the right direction in having that kind of discussion if it has good flow to it.

You haven't seen high end stuff from FFXIV have you?
Half your rotation ends up being non GCD skills that you weave between your GCD skills

Which thank God because the long ass GCD before you get any of those abilities was slow as hell 😆

Have not seen high end of that mmo, i was going to play it with some friends but then i got shafted and bought the expansion and it wasn't the actual game since i wasn't fully paying attention. In my mind set i got robbed.

This is one thing I will always applaud WoW for. The battle.net store, the launcher, and just getting into the game in general. Is WAY easier for WoW than I have ever seen it with a different MMO. I will also say that FFXIV is the absolute worst at it. All the mog station Crystia bs is annoying for no reason.

I do hope ashes is nice and simple and straight forward for all of the outside game stuff.

I tried to get a refund and i was 100% confused on their store and how they do things its a freaking mess. Battle.net has been doing it for ages so for them they had more experience on that side.

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