I don't like action combat, and it could very potentially stop me from playing

I haven't played it yet, so I'm not drawing any sort of line yet. But steven asked for feedback about if we are going in a positive direction, and I'm just gonna say that every action combat korean type mmo I've ever played I have absolutely hated. I am tab target 100%, I think action combat only works from an overhead 3rd person perspective like diablo or league of legends or lost ark. I don't want to aim my ability's honestly, If I use a sword and get animation locked, and at the same time I'm required to dodge some kind of skill shot. I'm not gonna be happy. If I miss a spell as a spell caster because my mouse was 4 pixels off, same thing. Tab targeting let's me focus on what I think matters.

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Mag7spy

ItsmeToki wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

ItsmeToki wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

ItsmeToki wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

ItsmeToki wrote: »

Fatalmistake187 wrote: »

As long as the action combat has an advantage over tab targeting in pvp, I'm in. If not then we end up like GW2 and no one action combats because there you're at a disadvantage from tab targeting. Seeing as this is a big pvp game with risk and rewards it should give an advantage to skilled individuals.

I am so excited to see players getting roasted in arenas who think action combat as aiming your attacks and landing your abilities will be the only skill needed in this game.
I am looking forward on a wide range of abilties so that you actually have to think while outplaying your opponent rather than having just to aim basic attacks and handle a minor set of abilties like a braindead fool.

lmao in what scenario do you need to think more then action combat. This point doesn't make a lot of sense to me and feels more out of desperation to somehow say tab has more depth to it. Like all the effects and same elements aren't applied to action combat on top of needing to aim to a small or large degree.

As I expected from a guy that knows nothing else than one combat style
Apparently you have a lot of dropouts. So many things dont make sense to you

I've most likely played more tab target mmorpgs then you and exactly why I'm saying you don't know what you are talking about. That is why you can't bring up an example of some element of tab combat requiring you to think more in combat it literarily makes no sense as you are trying to say skills have different effects in action combat compared to tab....Clearly effects of skills have be the same in both action and tab you are just say nonsense and you most likely got smacked up in some action based mmorpg.

If you can handly around 30 abilities with the reaction of a lets say low gladiator lvl player in wow and on top of that you wanna aim every single ability and every single basic attack. and you still wanna keep up with the speed of those kind of players. If you can manage that, you have my respect. Otherways if your only skill is based on aming and you try to compensate with that a slow mind, you still are a bad player to me.

So you are saying its easier to do, that I'd agree with you then lmao. Everyone knows tab target is a lot more easy than action combat that is why there is way less of a skill curve.

As I though. Someone is trying to compensate something here

Compensate it is the truth lmao tab target is easier you just said it with your own words lol. Granted they said they don't want to overload with tons of abilities in AOC so i wouldn't go in expecting 3-4 abilities bars with 30 skills you are constantly mashing. My guess is there will be a lot of abilities but you will be limited on actives to around 20 but they will be a lot more meaningful.

ItsmeToki

In combat sports they are often talking about fighting IQ. Thats a skill I would like to see getting rewarded in a game. Not only the motoric skills of a person.

Mag7spy

Why would fighting IQ not matter in action combat where you have skills to use? Combat spots is a great example as that is the step beyond action combat, and honestly favors action combat requiring more fighting IQ over tab. Boxing would be a great example of positioning and skill types you use. Then we get into the fighting game realm of combat as well.

ItsmeToki

If we look at Games like Wow, GW2, BDO, New World and Final Fantasy XIV the efford needed to manage your abilitykits in WoW and FFXIV is way higher than in those other games. Why? Its because of the complexity of the many different abilitites you have and the variety of situational choices you have to make that come with those.
I agree that you need some kind of IQ to manage your 6 skills in an acation game like New World. But an ape needs some IQ to be able to peel a banana as well.

Mag7spy

ItsmeToki wrote: »

If we look at Games like Wow, GW2, BDO, New World and Final Fantasy XIV the efford needed to manage your abilitykits in WoW and FFXIV is way higher than in those other games. Why? Its because of the complexity of the many different abilitites you have and the variety of situational choices that come with those.
I agree that you need some kind of IQ to manage your 6 skills in an acation game like New World. But an ape needs some IQ to be able to peel a banana as well.

Stop bringing up new world as a benchmark example. It isn't that complex lmao, when you play the game you get use what ability to use and you do your rotations. It is far more complex for skill rotations in BDO keeping track of your cds with the up to 40 skills you have, and not limited my WCD. I can tell you haven't played BDO else you would understand the complexity of the combat is more than honestly what a mmorpg should have with twitch skills on top of managing all your skills. Knowing your rotations in a tab target mmorpg doesn't take that much iq....

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

3. Wanting everything to be generic and same base damage for weapons and having everything work the same is the meaning of no skill cap as everything is the same. I don't know why you keep saying you don't use skills in action combat that doesn't make sense to me. I dont know if you played lost ark, you only deal dmg if you use skills...

You are working on the assumption that gearing and spec'ing a character isn't a skill.

This is an incorrect assumption.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

3. Wanting everything to be generic and same base damage for weapons and having everything work the same is the meaning of no skill cap as everything is the same. I don't know why you keep saying you don't use skills in action combat that doesn't make sense to me. I dont know if you played lost ark, you only deal dmg if you use skills...

You are working on the assumption that gearing and spec'ing a character isn't a skill.

This is an incorrect assumption.

Gearing is not only akin to tab target mmorpgs but the whole mmorpg as a whole. I don't view gearing as a combat skill and we are talking about combat right now. You are jumping into another convo with a qoute bringing up a weak point for reasons I don't understand. Making your build is a skill, it just has nothing to do with combat that is rpg mechanics.

I feel you just want to argue to argue there is no way you are assuming on tab target mmorpgs are the only ones that have builds?

ItsmeToki

Mag7spy wrote: »

ItsmeToki wrote: »

If we look at Games like Wow, GW2, BDO, New World and Final Fantasy XIV the efford needed to manage your abilitykits in WoW and FFXIV is way higher than in those other games. Why? Its because of the complexity of the many different abilitites you have and the variety of situational choices that come with those.
I agree that you need some kind of IQ to manage your 6 skills in an acation game like New World. But an ape needs some IQ to be able to peel a banana as well.

Stop bringing up new world as a benchmark example. It isn't that complex lmao, when you play the game you get use what ability to use and you do your rotations. It is far more complex for skill rotations in BDO keeping track of your cds with the up to 40 skills you have, and not limited my WCD. I can tell you haven't played BDO else you would understand the complexity of the combat is more than honestly what a mmorpg should have with twitch skills on top of managing all your skills. Knowing your rotations in a tab target mmorpg doesn't take that much iq....

As long as situational choices (on how you can use your abilities in the most efficient way in different PvP situations - aka problem solving skills) and the fast thinking and counter reacting in fights will have the most impact on the outcome of a fight in AoC and as long as the game will not try to imitate an action/shooter and doesnt value motoric skills over fighting IQ, I am fine with it.

cognitive skills > motoric skills (imo)

Mag7spy

ItsmeToki wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

ItsmeToki wrote: »

If we look at Games like Wow, GW2, BDO, New World and Final Fantasy XIV the efford needed to manage your abilitykits in WoW and FFXIV is way higher than in those other games. Why? Its because of the complexity of the many different abilitites you have and the variety of situational choices that come with those.
I agree that you need some kind of IQ to manage your 6 skills in an acation game like New World. But an ape needs some IQ to be able to peel a banana as well.

Stop bringing up new world as a benchmark example. It isn't that complex lmao, when you play the game you get use what ability to use and you do your rotations. It is far more complex for skill rotations in BDO keeping track of your cds with the up to 40 skills you have, and not limited my WCD. I can tell you haven't played BDO else you would understand the complexity of the combat is more than honestly what a mmorpg should have with twitch skills on top of managing all your skills. Knowing your rotations in a tab target mmorpg doesn't take that much iq....

As long as situational choices (on how you can use your abilities in the most efficient way in different PvP situations - aka problem solving skills) and the fast thinking and counter reacting in fights will have the most impact on the outcome of a fight in AoC and as long as the game will not try to imitate an action/shooter and doesnt value motoric skills over fighting IQ, I am fine with it.

Yes i agree there should be complexity and build diversity. NWO was fun but that and NW both had very limited abilities and build diversity (granted nwo is p2w). You should have a good amount of skills to pick from, but I don't believe you need to have 20+ skills either to make a good game if you add meaning to all the skills being used. If there are 40+ skills but you can have 20 of them and different upgrade perks based on your skills it would create a lot of diversity in builds and be great between people. That is what all mmo players want, action mmorpgs don't need to be limited on skills that is more so them being lazy and saving money from creating a in-depth system imo. We don't know that much at all how the abilities will work i only know it was mentioned they aren't trying to overload with a bunch of skills that become useless in time. Which makes it sound like they are going for a set amount of active skills and not letting it get out of hand. Since it is hybrid it should play a lot faster as well.

ItsmeToki

Mag7spy wrote: »

ItsmeToki wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

ItsmeToki wrote: »

If we look at Games like Wow, GW2, BDO, New World and Final Fantasy XIV the efford needed to manage your abilitykits in WoW and FFXIV is way higher than in those other games. Why? Its because of the complexity of the many different abilitites you have and the variety of situational choices that come with those.
I agree that you need some kind of IQ to manage your 6 skills in an acation game like New World. But an ape needs some IQ to be able to peel a banana as well.

Stop bringing up new world as a benchmark example. It isn't that complex lmao, when you play the game you get use what ability to use and you do your rotations. It is far more complex for skill rotations in BDO keeping track of your cds with the up to 40 skills you have, and not limited my WCD. I can tell you haven't played BDO else you would understand the complexity of the combat is more than honestly what a mmorpg should have with twitch skills on top of managing all your skills. Knowing your rotations in a tab target mmorpg doesn't take that much iq....

As long as situational choices (on how you can use your abilities in the most efficient way in different PvP situations - aka problem solving skills) and the fast thinking and counter reacting in fights will have the most impact on the outcome of a fight in AoC and as long as the game will not try to imitate an action/shooter and doesnt value motoric skills over fighting IQ, I am fine with it.

Yes i agree there should be complexity and build diversity. NWO was fun but that and NW both had very limited abilities and build diversity (granted nwo is p2w). You should have a good amount of skills to pick from, but I don't believe you need to have 20+ skills either to make a good game if you add meaning to all the skills being used. If there are 40+ skills but you can have 20 of them and different upgrade perks based on your skills it would create a lot of diversity in builds and be great between people. That is what all mmo players want, action mmorpgs don't need to be limited on skills that is more so them being lazy and saving money from creating a in-depth system imo. We don't know that much at all how the abilities will work i only know it was mentioned they aren't trying to overload with a bunch of skills that become useless in time. Which makes it sound like they are going for a set amount of active skills and not letting it get out of hand. Since it is hybrid it should play a lot faster as well.

20 unique and diverse skills for each primary archetype sounds good to me

Mag7spy

Like i said i have no clue though , i hope they show more combat every month or maybe that is copium lol.

JamesSunderland

Mag7spy wrote: »

Like i said i have no clue though , i hope they show more combat every month or maybe that is copium lol.

I certainly do hope it isn't copium, considering how combat is an essential concept for any MMORPG possible the aspect players have to engage with the majority of their in-game time and it was stated it is going to be presented in smaller pieces.

Mag7spy

JamesSunderland wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Like i said i have no clue though , i hope they show more combat every month or maybe that is copium lol.

I certainly do hope it isn't copium, considering how combat is an essential concept for any MMORPG possible the aspect players have to engage with the majority of their in-game time and it was stated it is going to be presented in smaller pieces.

Ya but it could be like a small piece every 2-3 months xD. Tab target combat - more classes- shown augments shown - more skills shown - movement - mounted combat - navel combat.

Give all those 2 month each that is over a year x.x. But i'll hope for the best haha.

Fatalmistake187

Dygz wrote: »

Fatalmistake187 wrote: »

As long as the action combat has an advantage over tab targeting in pvp, I'm in. If not then we end up like GW2 and no one action combats because there you're at a disadvantage from tab targeting. Seeing as this is a big pvp game with risk and rewards it should give an advantage to skilled individuals.

If, in Ashes, Action Combat has advantage over Tab Targeting in PvP, the game design has failed.
It's highly unlikely that will remain a thing for long.

Then what exactly is the point of having Action Combat? Again if there is no difference between the two then no one is going to use action at all because aiming your skills no matter how great your aim is, will never be a for sure thing like tab targeting in GW2. Then you have a situation where no one uses action because it's not guaranteed. So I disagree, if you're trying to make it so both things are viable, especially in pvp then action combat should have an advantage over tab targeting because it requires more skill to aim, lead and predict movements.

Fatalmistake187

ItsmeToki wrote: »

Fatalmistake187 wrote: »

As long as the action combat has an advantage over tab targeting in pvp, I'm in. If not then we end up like GW2 and no one action combats because there you're at a disadvantage from tab targeting. Seeing as this is a big pvp game with risk and rewards it should give an advantage to skilled individuals.

I am so excited to see players getting roasted in arenas who think action combat as aiming your attacks and landing your abilities will be the only skill needed in this game.
I am looking forward on a wide range of abilties beeing available for each class so that you actually have to think while outplaying your opponent rather than having just to aim a few basic attacks and handle a minor set of abilties like a braindead fool.

I never said anywhere, it's the ONLY skill needed. Not sure how you got that from my comment, the main point I was making is you need to give advantage to action BECAUSE if you don't then no one will use it like in GW2 and honestly, I probably won't play the game as long as I want to because of it. Just my opinion.

ItsmeToki

Fatalmistake187 wrote: »

ItsmeToki wrote: »

Fatalmistake187 wrote: »

As long as the action combat has an advantage over tab targeting in pvp, I'm in. If not then we end up like GW2 and no one action combats because there you're at a disadvantage from tab targeting. Seeing as this is a big pvp game with risk and rewards it should give an advantage to skilled individuals.

I am so excited to see players getting roasted in arenas who think action combat as aiming your attacks and landing your abilities will be the only skill needed in this game.
I am looking forward on a wide range of abilties beeing available for each class so that you actually have to think while outplaying your opponent rather than having just to aim a few basic attacks and handle a minor set of abilties like a braindead fool.

I never said anywhere, it's the ONLY skill needed. Not sure how you got that from my comment, the main point I was making is you need to give advantage to action BECAUSE if you don't then no one will use it like in GW2 and honestly, I probably won't play the game as long as I want to because of it. Just my opinion.

We are both living in countries of free speech

Dygz

Fatalmistake187 wrote: »

Then what exactly is the point of having Action Combat? Again if there is no difference between the two then no one is going to use action at all because aiming your skills no matter how great your aim is, will never be a for sure thing like tab targeting in GW2. Then you have a situation where no one uses action because it's not guaranteed. So I disagree, if you're trying to make it so both things are viable, especially in pvp then action combat should have an advantage over tab targeting because it requires more skill to aim, lead and predict movements.

The point of having Action Combat is for people who like Action Combat to be able to experience Action Combat; it's not for people who like Action Combat to have an advantage over Tab Target players.

I dunno what you mean by "no difference".
Free aim is different than Tab Target.
Active Block is different that Passive Block.

I also don't know what you mean by Action Combat being guaranteed.
And no... if anything... character build should trump player skill in an RPG.
Ashes is not an FPS.

But...the Hybrid Combat that Steven hopes for is not going to have one designed to have advantage over the other.

Fatalmistake187

Dygz wrote: »

Fatalmistake187 wrote: »

Then what exactly is the point of having Action Combat? Again if there is no difference between the two then no one is going to use action at all because aiming your skills no matter how great your aim is, will never be a for sure thing like tab targeting in GW2. Then you have a situation where no one uses action because it's not guaranteed. So I disagree, if you're trying to make it so both things are viable, especially in pvp then action combat should have an advantage over tab targeting because it requires more skill to aim, lead and predict movements.

The point of having Action Combat is for people who like Action Combat to be able to experience Action Combat; it's not for people who like Action Combat to have an advantage over Tab Target players.

I dunno what you mean by "no difference".
Free aim is different than Tab Target.
Active Block is different that Passive Block.

I also don't know what you mean by Action Combat being guaranteed.
And no... if anything... character build should trump player skill in an RPG.
Ashes is not an FPS.

But...the Hybrid Combat that Steven hopes for is not going to have one designed to have advantage over the other.

And once again since action combat requires more skill because you need to aim, people won't use action combat like they don't in GW2 if tab targeting is just going to always hit. You need to balance the fact that tab skills and attacks will always hit while attack combat will vary depending on your skill, if you don't anyone competitive won't action combat and will just tab and going back to my point, what's the point of having action combat if tab targeting is just going to out play them every time by default?

Dygz

Well, that's just not true.
Especially since Action Combat is not just about aiming.

Tab Target doesn't always hit.
And, like I said, neither Tab Target nor Action Combat will be designed to outplay each other.

Mag7spy

Action combat should have an advantage its already stated that tab will have less accuracy. Everyone is well aware tab is easy mode and you don't have to deal with looking at your enemy or aiming anything. Though balance and design they will make it work I'm sure. The design would fail if there was no point in using action moves and a bunch of skills will just be never used.

They could easily have stats to help balance things out further, but I'm unsure if they will do separate pvp and pve stats. I feel soft targeting is the best thing they can do for range action combat and make it so you need to face your target even in tab so you have a slower back peddle then running full speed and spamming skills with 0 efforts.

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