Jail and bounty hunter as punishment for corrupted players

I love all the concepts of AOC. It seems to me to be the MMORPG that the players give the freedom, possibility, responsibility and social interactions back that are missing in almost all today's MMORPG.

The only system, as far as I inform me, is the PvP Flagged system (non-combat, combat, corrupted). It will probably be a good system to punish Ganker, but I am against that the system itself (by debuffs, gradation of equipment, half-loot drop) punishes the Corrupted players. This would be an automated system, similar to BDO, that players would take responsibility and possibility to solve such problems.

Instead, I would like the punishment to be shifted to the Bounty Hunter System with the addition of a player driven jail system (similar to Archeage).

The Corrupted Player would not only have the Bounty Hunter as a punishment, but also the prison, depending on the severity of his crime.

This would bring significantly more responsibility and social interactions to the players than a currupt system that weakens you with debuffs and bounty hunters who kill you. After that there would be no consequences.

In order for all of this to work, the bounty hunters must also be rewarded very well, so that there are more bounty hunters than Ganker.

What do u guys think about that?

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Mag7spy

Sophisticus wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

k

Sophisticus wrote: »

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

Do... what im suggesting...... and counter a single point.

I dont think i should be forced into a court system to satiate RP. What is your take on this? Do you have one?

I can understand. And I don't want to be punished by an automated system. In such a large MMORPG there will probably be more systems or features that "force us" to something. In some points, the force is necessary to give players a certain gaming experience. An MMORPG that does not "force" you have no specific gaming experience either.

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

Is this just a concept made in order to remove the negatives to being currupted in an attempt to make existing as a currupted player more available and less of a punishment?

I am not primarily suggesting this jail system to satisfying Rper. the RPer was just a addition reason. It is about replacing an automated system with a player driven one that gave the players responsibility and decision -making. if u have a other idea that give us that, then good. its dont need to be a prison.

You aren't forced, just don't pk someone and you will never have to worry about corruption.

I do not necessarily speak of the current corruption system that "forces me". This game would have 1000 systems and features that can feel like a "force".

Also what you tell me can also apply to you. You aren't forced, just don't pk someone and you will never have to worry about jail.

However. For one type of player, system/feature XY is a "force", and for the other it is the gaming experience he wants.

Imagine trying to turn it around on me, jail isn't in the game no one wants that, that is only you wanting a different system that is terribly designed as well.

If you don't like how games are designed don't play it, it is a game and you will have to follow the systems set. Sytems that people have been interested in AoC for that very reason , if you want some weird game with no systems and only player driven you might want tot try star citizen or a rp forum.

Sophisticus

NiKr wrote: »

Sophisticus wrote: »

I just don't want automated punishment (such as dropping loot, weakness debuffs). To reduce his corruption by grinding is not a punishment for my understanding. This is work to prevent punishment (dropping loot, debuffs or jail)

You still drop stuff on normal death too. And your stats decrease too, if you "delevel" by the way of XP debt. Dropping gear is just a logical upscaling of punishment for dying for criminals.

I don't see why the upscaling the dropping loot is logical for a criminal. But I don't want to say that a jail system would be logical. It has nothing to do with logic. Nothing has a necessity here.

NiKr wrote: »

And grinding off your corruption is not a punishment, it's a way to avoid said punishment. And the BH system is there to make that avoidance harder.

thats right. how i said it. To be able to work out the corruption would also be in my interest. Be it outside or inside the jail.

Sophisticus

Mag7spy wrote: »

Sophisticus wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

k

Sophisticus wrote: »

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

Do... what im suggesting...... and counter a single point.

I dont think i should be forced into a court system to satiate RP. What is your take on this? Do you have one?

I can understand. And I don't want to be punished by an automated system. In such a large MMORPG there will probably be more systems or features that "force us" to something. In some points, the force is necessary to give players a certain gaming experience. An MMORPG that does not "force" you have no specific gaming experience either.

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

Is this just a concept made in order to remove the negatives to being currupted in an attempt to make existing as a currupted player more available and less of a punishment?

I am not primarily suggesting this jail system to satisfying Rper. the RPer was just a addition reason. It is about replacing an automated system with a player driven one that gave the players responsibility and decision -making. if u have a other idea that give us that, then good. its dont need to be a prison.

You aren't forced, just don't pk someone and you will never have to worry about corruption.

I do not necessarily speak of the current corruption system that "forces me". This game would have 1000 systems and features that can feel like a "force".

Also what you tell me can also apply to you. You aren't forced, just don't pk someone and you will never have to worry about jail.

However. For one type of player, system/feature XY is a "force", and for the other it is the gaming experience he wants.

Imagine trying to turn it around on me, jail isn't in the game no one wants that, that is only you wanting a different system that is terribly designed as well.

If you don't like how games are designed don't play it, it is a game and you will have to follow the systems set. Sytems that people have been interested in AoC for that very reason , if you want some weird game with no systems and only player driven you might want tot try star citizen or a rp forum.

I love mostly how AOC is designed. It seems to me to be the mmorpg that the players give the freedom, possibility, responsibility and social interactions back that are missing in almost all today's mmorpg. This is the vision that I see in this game.

Only the corruption system does not seem to me to follow this fundermental concept of the game. It is automated and except to the involvement of bounty hunters, has no further influence on other players or the game world. It looks so isolated compared to the openness and and influence width of other systems in the game. So what you call "weird game" concept is the actual vision of the game, I claim. Or do you see it differently?

And even if they don't change that, I will still play AoC.

Ludullu

Sophisticus wrote: »

I don't see why the upscaling the dropping loot is logical for a criminal. But I don't want to say that a jail system would be logical. It has nothing to do with logic. Nothing has a necessity here.

It has logic in the design's intent. Steven's trying to promote pvping so dying flagged reduces your penalties. Steven wants pve to have its own risks so dying to a mob unflagged has higher penalties than dying in pvp. And Steven wants to deter people from attacking pacifists, while still allowing such activities, so dying red has ever-increasing penalties (volume-wise, even though multiplier stays the same). And to prevent genocides as much as possible, high PK counts have the highest possible penalties of dropping gear. That looks like a logical progression of penalties, considering the design of the game.

But if I drop/lose stats during pvp/pve and then all of a sudden go to jail after killing someone, that feels like a complete sidestep of the system rather than a progress within it.

Sophisticus wrote: »

thats right. how i said it. To be able to work out the corruption would also be in my interest. Be it outside or inside the jail.

Except the current design makes it exciting and an in-game feature, while jail makes it boring and takes you out of gameplay.

Sophisticus

NiKr wrote: »

Sophisticus wrote: »

I don't see why the upscaling the dropping loot is logical for a criminal. But I don't want to say that a jail system would be logical. It has nothing to do with logic. Nothing has a necessity here.

It has logic in the design's intent. Steven's trying to promote pvping so dying flagged reduces your penalties. Steven wants pve to have its own risks so dying to a mob unflagged has higher penalties than dying in pvp. And Steven wants to deter people from attacking pacifists, while still allowing such activities, so dying red has ever-increasing penalties (volume-wise, even though multiplier stays the same).

I would call that practical, not logical. But no matter. Don't let us argue about Sematics.

NiKr wrote: »

And to prevent genocides as much as possible, high PK counts have the highest possible penalties of dropping gear.

The penalties increases with every level of corruption, this structure can also be maintained with the jail system. The higher your corruption, the higher your minimum time in prison. It then takes longer to work through it.

This should also largely prevent genocides.

NiKr wrote: »

But if I drop/lose stats during pvp/pve and then all of a sudden go to jail after killing someone, that feels like a complete sidestep of the system rather than a progress within it.

Sophisticus wrote: »

thats right. how i said it. To be able to work out the corruption would also be in my interest. Be it outside or inside the jail.

Except the current design makes it exciting and an in-game feature, while jail makes it boring and takes you out of gameplay.

As I said, such a jail system can be added in 1000 different ways. Here too, the excitement of flee from bounty hunters and reduce your corruption before you are killed can stay. This does not contradict each other.
So instead of reducing your time in the prison of work (as I suggested at the beginning), you could also reduce your time before you are in jail (as it is in the current system). So far until you are no longer corrupted. However, if a BH catches you or if you are killed( while ur still corrupted), you will not revive at the next cemetery, but in the judge Halle.
I just want the punishment to be decided by players (BH or decision of the jury)

Ludullu

Sophisticus wrote: »

I just want the punishment to be decided by players (BH or decision of the jury)

And in my experience ~30% of karma (corruption) removal was done by other players, either by the victim themselves or by someone else. And the only reason that percentage is low was because there was no BH system and the karma removal was fairly quick. With a proper balancing, those 30% would probably come closer to 70-80%, with the remainder being just grinded off on mobs.

That sounds like a player-enacted punishment within the current system. Someone around the PKer decided to punish him and did so. It is no different from some randoms just saying "oh yeah, he's totally guilty so give him 10h of jail time", except it takes way less time for all the parties involved, it dishes out a bigger punishment (XP loss, potential gear loss, and time required to restore either of those things) when the prison system would only provide a time loss as punishment, which, to a "professional" PKer, is not a punishment at all.

Azherae and several other people on different platforms have already stated that even the current harsh penalties wouldn't stop them from killing whoever they want. Spending a few hours grinding, whatever it is you'd need to grind in a prison, would be an even smaller deterrent for them, except now their gear stays the same and their lvl stays the same so they're completely free to just come back to the exact same spot and continue genociding whoever they want.

And if you combine the two systems and/or make the scaling of prison time give those genocirders days-worth of grinding - you'd be pretty much removing them from the game that they paid a sub to play. And that is nowhere near good game design. And even that would not stop them from repeating the same offense in the future.

Mag7spy

Sophisticus wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Sophisticus wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

k

Sophisticus wrote: »

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

Do... what im suggesting...... and counter a single point.

I dont think i should be forced into a court system to satiate RP. What is your take on this? Do you have one?

I can understand. And I don't want to be punished by an automated system. In such a large MMORPG there will probably be more systems or features that "force us" to something. In some points, the force is necessary to give players a certain gaming experience. An MMORPG that does not "force" you have no specific gaming experience either.

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

Is this just a concept made in order to remove the negatives to being currupted in an attempt to make existing as a currupted player more available and less of a punishment?

I am not primarily suggesting this jail system to satisfying Rper. the RPer was just a addition reason. It is about replacing an automated system with a player driven one that gave the players responsibility and decision -making. if u have a other idea that give us that, then good. its dont need to be a prison.

You aren't forced, just don't pk someone and you will never have to worry about corruption.

I do not necessarily speak of the current corruption system that "forces me". This game would have 1000 systems and features that can feel like a "force".

Also what you tell me can also apply to you. You aren't forced, just don't pk someone and you will never have to worry about jail.

However. For one type of player, system/feature XY is a "force", and for the other it is the gaming experience he wants.

Imagine trying to turn it around on me, jail isn't in the game no one wants that, that is only you wanting a different system that is terribly designed as well.

If you don't like how games are designed don't play it, it is a game and you will have to follow the systems set. Sytems that people have been interested in AoC for that very reason , if you want some weird game with no systems and only player driven you might want tot try star citizen or a rp forum.

I love mostly how AOC is designed. It seems to me to be the mmorpg that the players give the freedom, possibility, responsibility and social interactions back that are missing in almost all today's mmorpg. This is the vision that I see in this game.

Only the corruption system does not seem to me to follow this fundermental concept of the game. It is automated and except to the involvement of bounty hunters, has no further influence on other players or the game world. It looks so isolated compared to the openness and and influence width of other systems in the game. So what you call "weird game" concept is the actual vision of the game, I claim. Or do you see it differently?

And even if they don't change that, I will still play AoC.

I don't know why you think it is automated it is player choice on what they want to do, design is done for a reason. If you do something it has consequences but you are allowed to do it as much as you want within reason. You can make all the choices and stay as apart of the world and continue to create content while being hunted. It is player choice to deal with you or not and send a execution squad else you can work off the corruption and do what you want in the game.

Yup your idea is a jail system that can put people int here for a whole day if they pvp a lot. That honestly is a terrible joke, the only reason to take a player out of the world and STOP them from playing is because your system design has flaws and your solution is to not allow them to play the game. It doesn't get any more automated than that, the jury is simply something that can be manipulated for you to be able to potentially grief players harder if you can control it.

As far as I'm concerned if there is an immense red player with corruption the jury already exist, its the squad of BH that will hunt them down as well with plenty of other players. Them dropping gear and being pinged on the map is the motivation for players to act else people might not even care and leave them to continue to pk people.

What i know is you don't want stat dampening and you want to have a moment where you can kill a ton of people until you die and not lose gear. You aren't going to get any closer to that idea by suggesting jail or bad systems, advocate for hardcore pvp servers.

Sophisticus

NiKr wrote: »

Sophisticus wrote: »

I just want the punishment to be decided by players (BH or decision of the jury)

And in my experience ~30% of karma (corruption) removal was done by other players, either by the victim themselves or by someone else. And the only reason that percentage is low was because there was no BH system and the karma removal was fairly quick. With a proper balancing, those 30% would probably come closer to 70-80%, with the remainder being just grinded off on mobs.

That sounds like a player-enacted punishment within the current system. Someone around the PKer decided to punish him and did so. It is no different from some randoms just saying "oh yeah, he's totally guilty so give him 10h of jail time", except it takes way less time for all the parties involved, it dishes out a bigger punishment (XP loss, potential gear loss, and time required to restore either of those things) when the prison system would only provide a time loss as punishment, which, to a "professional" PKer, is not a punishment at all.

That seems right to me. Until then, it is a player-enacted punishment. To be killed by others or BH´s is only one part of the punishment (if you see this as punishment). The addition of losing XP, dropping more loot and downgrading stats has not been decided by any player, but by the system. That, only that I want to replace with the jail (or something else that is pure player driven). Everything else can stay that way. You then not only have players around you who want to kill u and bounty hunters, but also a jail with a jury who decide how long you stay in the prison.

In my understanding, thats is more player driven. The interaction and communication that can result from such a jail system cannot be compared to the losing XP, dropping more loot and downgrading stats.

Ludullu

Sophisticus wrote: »

In my understanding, thats is more player driven. The interaction and communication that can result from such a jail system cannot be compared to the losing XP, dropping more loot and downgrading stats.

And in my understanding 5 minutes (if that) of interaction for hours of "punishment" is way smaller, relatively speaking, than 1-2 minutes of direct player-enacted punishment.

Prison is still a "system-controlled punishment", because it's the system that's keeping you in prison, not players. While in the current system, players are the jury and the executioner. The system only does the basic job of penalizing your death, if players decide to kill you as punishment for your crimes.

If you're so hellbent on introducing even more player activity into the equation - make the PK count removal quest be tied to your "jury". Make the high count PKers work with other people to absolve their sins. This would add more interaction, while not removing players from the game.

Sophisticus

NiKr wrote: »

Sophisticus wrote: »

In my understanding, thats is more player driven. The interaction and communication that can result from such a jail system cannot be compared to the losing XP, dropping more loot and downgrading stats.

And in my understanding 5 minutes (if that) of interaction for hours of "punishment" is way smaller, relatively speaking, than 1-2 minutes of direct player-enacted punishment.

Prison is still a "system-controlled punishment", because it's the system that's keeping you in prison, not players. While in the current system, players are the jury and the executioner. The system only does the basic job of penalizing your death, if players decide to kill you as punishment for your crimes.

As for that, I said at the beginning that you could break out of jail in AA. There would have to be further consequences for such a case.

But I think I now understand what you mean. In both cases, it is the players who TRIGGER the punishment. But what I think is that more communication and interaction would be in a jail system. It is an addition to all the interactions and communications that are there in the current system and could be built into other systems (in political terms) more. Especially the higher possibility of abuse by organized groups or guilds is the type of interaction that makes friendships and enmities rise.

NiKr wrote: »

If you're so hellbent on introducing even more player activity into the equation - make the PK count removal quest be tied to your "jury". Make the high count PKers work with other people to absolve their sins. This would add more interaction, while not removing players from the game.

This is the kind of suggestions that I like to hear. That might be a good alternative. Can you describe this more precisely what you mean by "tied to your "jury ""?

Ludullu

Sophisticus wrote: »

This is the kind of suggestions that I like to hear. That might be a good alternative. Can you describe this more precisely what you mean by "tied to your "jury ""?

Just apply the same "a few random people who signed up get picked" mechanic to the social org that's responsible for PK count decreasing quest. A PKer comes to the NPC and wants to decrease his count. The NPC then assigns several people (from the list) that the PKer has to trade/talk with. The trading would be tracked by the system and would set a value to the PK count amount that is then applied to the resources being traded (prices correlated through the node's local market). The person assigned through the quest tells the PKer which resource they need and the PKer then has to acquire the number of resources that would equal the value of his PK count that was set by the system.

The "talking" part could be a party quest/farm/boss with the assigned person that reward the assigned person with something (can be whatever) and counts towards PKers "deeds".

After all those things are done, the PKer returns to the original NPC and gets his count reduced.

At least that's how I'd do it. Obviously Intrepid have their own ideas for it and I hope they're better than what I came up with on the spot.

Tulima

I skipped some pages of this discussion but here are my 2 cents.

I played Archeage back in the day and thought the jail system was fun. As a Juror, it felt great giving a PKer the maximum sentence whilst they were begging and pleading. It was hilarious to be set free as a criminal because I was lucky enough to have friends/guildmates assigned as jurors.

I remember one time my guild collaborated with the pirate faction and a lot of us died and were sent to court. However, the jurors were all friends and we were set free while the entire faction chat was malding.

Admittedly, the jail system did not stop crime(PK, thieving, etc) from happening. If you got caught for stealing you'd get a sentence of about 15min I would just AFK, watch a youtube video, and be free.
If I PK'd and got a longer sentence, the same thing I'd AFK, buy groceries or hit the gym or whatever.

This is why ashes should NOT have a jail system because it encourages the player to NOT play. If a player accumulates too much corruption then he must actually work to get rid of it, in contrast to a jail system where you can just go afk.

TLDR: Jail is a fun system but not good at deterring PKing

superhero6785

Jail sounds like "temporary ban" to me. No, I don't think banning players for playing a feature of the game (open world PvP) is a good idea. Corruption already has its punishments tied to it, the severity of which still needs tested/balanced.

akabear

Honestly, a little corruption is ok, but impeding a healthy amount of pk`ing will be bad for the game. It`s a balance that L2 got wrong at the start, and right in the middle and no idea about now.

In L2 for the clan and alliance member, pk`ing was more a warring, political, ransoms, extortion, territorial grab, region defending, ending wars, starting wars, spy/bot/thief reprimanding tool than just simple griefing. Generally, griefing was held accountable by the community, so if not authorized by clan and not a clan to stand by you, the community dealt with the player.

The structure of AoC appears to be heading the same direction as L2, and if the above game elements develop similar importance, then pk`ing will be a necessary evil. Without, little gravity to political decisions.

It essentially created the necessary drama to bind allegiances and divide communities and keep a constant evolving drama to return to each play!

Is anyone that is against it also a past L2 player?

PenguinPaladin

Sophisticus wrote: »

I am not primarily suggesting this jail system to satisfying Rper. the RPer was just a addition reason. It is about replacing an automated system with a player driven one that gave the players responsibility and decision -making. if u have a other idea that give us that, then good. its dont need to be a prison.

I would argue the curruption system is a system that makes players activly make decisions.

The difference being when the decision making happens. With curruption in place as is, the decisions made by those willing to become currupt and they balance the pro's and con's of doing so. And players still make decisions on how to treat a currupt player. You can run in terror, fight back, try and lead others to them.

I dont see this as a forced automated system of punishment. I see it as allowing the world at large to react to you breaking a law of nature.

I dont support your jail/council trial idea, and the RP one is the most obvious stance to attack, that is why i have been targeting it.

But my next attack is just "who cares" the only people who would have to deal with your trial idea are those going red and breaking rules. Before this trial system exists, no player going red wants to have to deal with 20-30 minutes of social interaction before they are even punished.... and thats if they get into their trial immediately. Having a trial system is just a huge turn away to more casual players that end up having to spend their time there.

You act like curruption is an automated system forced on the player. When its not. The curruption system is a punishment system however it doesnt decide anything on its own. Its the doorway you get to look at, inspect, and debait if crossing it is worth anything to you. And you are still given the option to make that decision. And if you make that decision doesnt decide your fate. You arent just killed, you dont become helpless. You are left to the world, to react to your actions. If you the player, want to argue, make deals, run and hide, or fight for your life while red. Do it.

The difference is time taken, and the "forced" aspect. With the curruption system as is. Its instant. Talk to the bounty hunter after you. Try and make deals. Its instant. Now do they have to respond to you? No. Because no one should be forced to play how you want to play. But in a social setting it can happen.

In your purposed idea, even without the jail. You are asking for, a fight with Bounty hunters, where when you lose you HAVE to interact with some sort of trial to decide your punishment. Its just a whole unnecessary, and foced step. To the punishment system, that already allows you to attempt this type of begging for mercy, before you are killed...

I would argue, bounty hunting shouldnt be all that rewarding. It should be titles. And maybe some gold from the nodes if they want to invest some taxes towards rewarding bounty hunters. Rewarding people too much for hunting reds allows for abuse of the system, and make people want others to go red. Which works directly against the fact that foing red is just a punishment

Nerror

Dolyem wrote: »

Hard no on the prisons. "timeout" is not a suitable punishment seeing as its basically a soft ban for a period of time for participating in the games intended features.

Yeah I agree with this. No jail or timeout.

Dygz

I don't understand what a jail system has to do with RP.
Especially since most people will just log out or play an alt while waiting for the jail time to expire.

PenguinPaladin

Dygz wrote: »

I don't understand what a jail system has to do with RP.
Especially since most people will just log out or play an alt while waiting for the jail time to expire.

He only wants the jail so there can be a trial...

He only wants the trial so the players can decide punishment... aka, i want to greive some players, and let my friends off easy...

Which is all just too abusable, and pointless in the overall aspect of the game. In my opinion. Even if a handful find it "fun"

HarryZy

One point of thought about the Jury system could be; how do I as a baddie make my character more well known as a bad seed of society? Many more less immersive ways would be forums and discord ofc. But

personally I would rather know more about those baddies through the interview process of the jury system. The sentence can be argued further ofc. the system in AA had some good features in this regard.

Uncommon Sense

(blight) appears to be jail time without a cell.

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